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Incline Chris Avellone Appreciation Station

Roguey

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Hey Chris, where are your damn balls? We're living in Trump's America now. Don't apologize when you've done nothing wrong.



I had to look at this in a private window to understand what was going on because this misandrous moron uses a block list.
 

PulsatingBrain

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Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire Codex+ Now Streaming! Enjoy the Revolution! Another revolution around the sun that is. My team has the sexiest and deadliest waifus you can recruit. Pathfinder: Wrath
Hey Chris, where are your damn balls? We're living in Trump's America now. Don't apologize when you've done nothing wrong.



I had to look at this in a private window to understand what was going on because this misandrous moron uses a block list.


Gross. Those people fucking disgust me. The most dull, one-track minds on the planet, and they think they are genius level philosophers, sent here to guide our evil minds.
 

Beastro

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If there's any relevance to that kind of analysis, I'd wonder how much did he put of himself into Durance.

Putting his heart and soul into the cause of deity he both loved and despised only to realize, in the end, that she used him to do something he originally thought righteous that turned out to be a short sighted power play that helped make the world a worse place....

... All the while eager to the point being unhinged to ramble on into the ear of the PC and finally have someone listen to all the cynical, world weary and bitter thoughts and feelings on the world he's had built up inside of himself for a lifetime...

:|
 

Beastro

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I like Chris Avellone's work as much as the next guy, but its a bit crass to go out and not so subtly smear your former employers in an interview. Dude is better to just keep quiet about it all. It comes across like he really wants in at Bethesda, but I doubt even he could fix their shit to be honest.

The industry already has far, far too many people who talk uncritically about each other.
 

Starwars

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There is a difference though. Chris is one of my developer heroes, I love the guy. But I have lost a lot of respect for him since he left Obsidian. I'm sure there were good reasons obviously, and I'd probably take his side regarding it. But either come out and say what the fuck happened point blank, or shut the fuck up. And then, move on! There is nothing more annoying to me than the passive aggressive "hints" or suggestions that things were indeed bad, without really saying anything. And it just keeps going. Can't stand that approach, it just breeds gossip and feels very petty.

Speak your piece, or shut up, move on and create something new and awesome.
 
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jaydee2k

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Hey Chris, where are your damn balls? We're living in Trump's America now. Don't apologize when you've done nothing wrong.



I had to look at this in a private window to understand what was going on because this misandrous moron uses a block list.


Holy fuck !! Geez that cunt needs two dicks in her cakehole that she can't disgust me with such SJW Bullshit... :argh:
 
Self-Ejected

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Sawyer did say he was a bit jealous of PS:T in the Black Isle days, but Cain? Why do you say that?

Tim Cain not bein praised is a bit far fetched, most on us have got shrines to the fucker, hes treated like a livin bloody legend.

Because Avellone is still more praised than him, even after everything he has done? Or maybe because he was poisoned by Sawyer and daily gossip? Geez Louize, you guys never saw celebrities fighting among themselves for the most insignificant details? Vanity is insatiable and the measure of content is always what other people think. Unfortunately, if you put to many egos in a cooperative project this is bound to happen.

It could've been MCA not wanting the job or Obsidian's partners preference for Sawyer, we don't really know. Chris did say he didn't want to be Lead Writer at Obsidian anymore, but he didn't say anything about Project Director.

Chris has said a lot of things about Obsidian over the past year, but one thing he's never really said is that they refused to give him a project. The obvious conclusion would be that that wasn't how things went down. He has talked about how personal/family issues prevent him from taking any leadership role. It's possible that those extend back further than we know.

Chris said that he was tired of being reduced to a mere writer. Of course he wanted to be a lead design in a game. This personal family issues sounds like a convenient excuse to justify their treatment.
 

J_C

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Hey Chris, where are your damn balls? We're living in Trump's America now. Don't apologize when you've done nothing wrong.



I had to look at this in a private window to understand what was going on because this misandrous moron uses a block list.


Holy fuck !! Geez that cunt needs two dicks in her cakehole that she can't disgust me with such SJW Bullshit... :argh:

For fuck's sake Chris Avellone ! You should have left the Sorry part out from your tweet. You have nothing to be sorry of.

Edit: There, did my duty and responded to the tweet.
 

mitochondritom

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The industry already has far, far too many people who talk uncritically about each other.

There is a difference though. Chris is one of my developer heroes, I love the guy. But I have lost a lot of respect for him since he left Obsidian. I'm sure there were good reasons obviously, and I'd probably take his side regarding it. But either come out and say what the fuck happened point blank, or shut the fuck up. And then, move on! There is nothing more annoying to me than the passive aggressive "hints" or suggestions that things were indeed bad, without really saying anything. And it just keeps going. Can't stand that approach, it just breeds gossip and feels very petty.

Speak your piece, or shut up, move on and create something new and awesome.

But its not being critical its more of a coy half finished one sided account of a clearly disgruntled employee. At least on the other side they haven't released spicy tit bits of "Avellone was a great guy except for that one incident, anyway moving on". Its possible to respect a guys work and think he is being unprofessional at the same time, "Starwars" articulated my opinion better (above). Anyway I look forward to his work on Fallout 5 with fully voiced bisexual pangender protagonist dogmeat added CA dialogue:

1. Yes
2. No, but actually yes.
3. Yes, but did you just misgender me?
4. Yes, what can change the nature of a radscorpion?
 

Roguey

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While arguing with Fairfaix in another thread I decided to pop on over to Avellone's linkedin on a lark and noticed

System Shock (Reboot, Lead Narrative Designer)

...was that something known? Because I was under the impression that he was just going to help them out a bit like he usually does.
 

Fairfax

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While arguing with Fairfaix in another thread I decided to pop on over to Avellone's linkedin on a lark and noticed

System Shock (Reboot, Lead Narrative Designer)

...was that something known? Because I was under the impression that he was just going to help them out a bit like he usually does.
Lead Narrative Designer is new to me, but he did describe his role in a podcast and it sounded bigger than his usual contribution. He said he was going to "flesh out" most of the new content.
I actually had a couple of questions about that for the interview, but things have been really slow on that front. :?
 

Fairfax

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Achievement unlocked: scooped Fairfax on Avellone news.
:drink:

Speaking of scoops, I hope you find out through Sawyer what happened in Project Eternity's early days at some point. It's always been a mystery to me, mostly because of this tweet:



Project started with just MCA and Sawyer, but something happened along the way and MCA ended with just the two companions.
 

HoboForEternity

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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
what about family issues we heard the last few months/ this/last year?

i don't really believe it's full politics, his personal life prevented him to work fully too and resulted it being reduced
 

Sensuki

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Speaking of scoops, I hope you find out through Sawyer what happened in Project Eternity's early days at some point. It's always been a mystery to me, mostly because of this tweet:



Project started with just MCA and Sawyer, but something happened along the way and MCA ended with just the two companions.


This is an easy one. Eric Fenstermaker was appointed Lead Narrative Designer but South Park Stick of Truth got delayed so he had to work on that full-time up to a certain point. He was part-time on both for a time as well (IIRC).
 
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I always feel there's something fundamental wrong with Bethesda writing department. Either the boss of that dep, a very long time member of company, or a founder who has huge influence on that dep, is the key to their status from long ago. I mean, think about it. code and map design change from Morrowind to Oblivion to (maybe) Skyrim and Fallout 3 but writing level still stay the same: juvenile pretentious crap.

George Ziets - case in point. Gets poached and comes cap in hand back to Obsidian after just one game. Nary a trace of the great work he did in MotB to be found anywhere in FO3.

No idea who penned the 'The Replicated Man' quest, but that sure seemed like the work of a genuinely talented writer and quest designer who just happened to get lucky and have his work fly under the radar, or was assigned to something sufficiently non-critical that he/she could do an interesting mystery quest with lots of potential for false solutions, of the kind where the player doesn't know that they didn't uncover the truth unless they go back and make better choices next time. There's talent there, and hiring Ziets so soon after MotB signified a real interest in recruiting promising up-and-comer writers. But they just get crushed by the combination of Bethesda lead writing policies and their insistence on inane dialogue mechanics.

The bit in FO3 where you 'wake' into the Virtual Reality town also reeks of something that was written to be far more intelligent, only to have everything interesting stripped out of it in order to meet the general Bethesda level of writing banality.

Worth bearing in mind that Toddler - whose personal gaming tastest would fit right in with Codex, who still considers Ultima 7 his favourite game, Betrayal at Krondor a close second, and played/loved all the Realms of Arkania, Ultima Underworld, Darklands and Gold Box games of the Golden Era (if anything, his blind spot is the later 1998-2002 silver age resurgence - he's more oldschool than that) - has never shown any interest whatsoever in the writing/story side of things. That's the one thing that actually makes sense - his personal gaming tastes predate storyfaggery. None of that forgives the bland lifeless NPCs that populate the consequence-free worlds he creates, nor his 'rule of cool' that makes his work a shallow corruption of the games he loves, but I wouldn't be surprised if he has a complete blind-spot for the story and writing.

If you follow the production announcements/previews of almost any Bethesda game, it's clear that the writing/story is last in priorities - they build their game first, with a general graphical theme for the purpose of setting, and then decide on the writing, almost as an afterthought. You certainly can't create a well-written story-faggery game that way, or even a world with verisimilitude.

Good storyfag games don't impose a story onto the game mechanics, they're ingrained into those mechanics so that the gameplay itself is much of the story. FO1-2 with its various builds and multiple approaches is a good example, but even take the adventure-game style PS:T - the pinnacle of story over combat-faggory. Almost all the key story aspects and themes are expressed through the gameplay - the resurrection mechanic, the accelerated levelling through memories, the party mechanic as an expression of TNO's destructive control over those close to him. Same for KoTOR2 with its influence system and party mechanics underpinning the major story twist that the Exile is subtly mind-controlling his party members as a side-effect of his draining the force from all around him - the logic of 'why do I have a set of gameplay mechanics where I can control these other party members' and the critical story twist are intertwined.

It's why 'cinematic' stories are so awful at story-faggery. By treating game writing like it's a movie, the story/writing is so superflous to the game that it feels like a railroaded set of vocalisations superimposed upon the gameplay for no reason, or even worse, interupting the game itself.

And in that sense, I think MCA's criticisms of being treated as 'a writer only' are valid. Yes, it's what he's great at - but every time he's been a guest writer in a game where he didn't have high-level design control of the other stuff, it's felt totally out of place and inconsequential. At best, he's given an area like New Reno where he does make a great little mini-setting where the writing and gameplay sync, but with a thematic style that's jarringly inconsistent in tone with the rest of the game. He's never done well as 'just a writer', even when his actual writing is good. No wonder he got squeezed out of PoE - how could his style of writing/story-design, that relies heavily on being told as much through game mechanics as through prose, be compatible with Sawyer's 'balance first and foremost' sensibilities. I like Sawyer's work - FO:NV was great, I believe Annie when she says that Sawyer's rigid management style salvaged NWN2 into a mediocre but sellable product from a disastrous mess that was going to sink the company, and I think even his PoE autism is a valid crpg game-style that would have a better reputation at the Codex if it was just one of many varying styles of crpg available like in the goldern age. But I can't imagine a design style more hostile to MCA's approach.....other than Bethesda's.

Not even the best writers could produce anything more than 'forgettably passable' working in conditions where their role is merely to provide the flavour text and 'lead the player by the nose to the next area' quest hooks after all the 'real work' is done. And it's pretty clear that there's something fundamentally rotten in the Bethesda writing department anyway, which won't be fixed any time soon, because Toddler seems to have negligible interest in that side of things, and his undisputed commercial success means he has no motivation to do so. I still respect that Bethesda at least stuck to making crpgs - shitty crpgs - but they didn't abandon it like Bioware, and I'll at least give him credit for sticking with his vision of crpgs while Bioware kept trying to piggyback on the 'next big thing', and still couldn't get a fraction of Bethesda's profits.

If MCA works for Bethesda in their crpg division, he'll somehow have managed to find the only possible worse fit for his talents than Sawyer. Even Bioware would give him a better opportunity to show whether he can still create something worthwhile - hell, I could even see them giving him a large but optional mini-hub like New Reno where he could do his stuff, with tonal inconsistency handwaived by some token plot explanation.

However, so far his work with Bethesda has not been with their key crpgs - Prey seems to be more akin to their publishing 'Call of Cthulu', i.e. publishing products of different styles that have no relation to their crpg template. MCA's been around a while - I can see him signing up with Bethesda in a purely managerial/tech role, where he gets to move up in the corporate world having outgrown the desire to make games. But it I find it hard to believe that after all his experience, he'd blindly blunder into working at a design level on games utterly unsuited to his preference for merging mechanics with story-telling.

Unless they give him a fuckton of cash + share options. Any sensible adult of his age, with even 1-2 genuinely great past achievements to satiate his desire to have 'done something' creatively, would take that. Seriously - people mocked the Biodocs, but fuck, in terms of their own personal lives and happiness, they struck the jackpot by selling out to EA. Ultra-rich, got to keep their same pay for as long as they could be bothered sticking around, and they all got to retire young and spend their time with their families in luxury, dicking around with whatever beer brewing hobbies they feel like. They get to send their kids to the best schools and buy them the best season baseball tickets money can buy - plus they get to do it all with them, instead of missing the best years of fatherhood stuck in an office. Sure beats working 80 hr crunch weeks.
 
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Fairfax

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what about family issues we heard the last few months/ this/last year?

i don't really believe it's full politics, his personal life prevented him to work fully too and resulted it being reduced
Could be it, but he did join Tyranny when it started and still worked on FTL, South Park, etc. Maybe this was before the issues.

Speaking of scoops, I hope you find out through Sawyer what happened in Project Eternity's early days at some point. It's always been a mystery to me, mostly because of this tweet:



Project started with just MCA and Sawyer, but something happened along the way and MCA ended with just the two companions.


This is an easy one. Eric Fenstermaker was appointed Lead Narrative Designer but South Park Stick of Truth got delayed so he had to work on that full-time up to a certain point. He was part-time on both for a time as well (IIRC).

South Park was only delayed in late October 2013. MCA was already mentioning his two companions in early 2013, when he was working full-time on the game.
The only one along with George Ziets (who worked on it for a very short period):

How many writers do you have working on Eternity altogether?

Just about all of our designers are writers, too. In terms of full-time narrative designers, I think there are only two. There's me and then there's George Zeits, who's also doing work on the Torment: Tides of Numenera project. But we're pretty much the only two full-time narrative designers, although we do expect to have more in the future once we ramp up production.

And while I have my theories about MCA and Sawyer falling out, this probably happened before any of that, because he was still praising Sawyer:

A: I get the impression Eternity is more like traditional D&D - how do you balance comforting fantasy tropes with breaking expectations?

Chris Avellone: There's a lot of hallmarks like dwarves and elves but I think the cool thing that the project director Josh Sawyer has done is he's made a conscious effort to make sure that even though the word dwarf and the word elf is there to bring you in and understand the general concept, then he does a lot of cool cultural twists and racial twists that clearly set them apart. I mean he's really good about that, and I'm sure he'll talk more about that in future updates, but he's really really good about that.

Chris did say in the Codex interview that he didn't want to be Lead Writer at Obsidian, but we don't know when that happened. He still pitched his take on the story and he was the only writer working full-time on the game for a while, so maybe he was still open to the idea?

There's also this gem I just found in a interview from March 2013:

Sitting down to write two characters for Eternity, Avellone felt as if the chains were off.

“I’m not writing for a publisher right now,” he thought. “So I can write about subjects we’re normally not allowed to. What’s interesting about the world of Eternity that I think these two companions could have something to say about?”

In the end, Avellone went too far even for his colleagues at Obsidian - those characters won’t appear in the game as he originally intended. But the finished game will return to the literary quality that Avellone agrees Obsidian and BioWare both lost in the transition to full 3D - from the Infinity Engine games, through Neverwinter Nights, to Knights of the Old Republic.

:negative:

The interesting thing is that this happened very early in the game's development, which means it wasn't a Ulysses situation.
 

Infinitron

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Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
George Ziets - case in point. Gets poached and comes cap in hand back to Obsidian after just one game. Nary a trace of the great work he did in MotB to be found anywhere in FO3.

Dude not this again

George Ziets did some work on The Elder Scrolls Online, he never worked at Bethesda proper.
 

Rev

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About MCA and PoE, he said that he didn't understand some of the world's themes and how to flesh them out properly in some post-Obsidian interviews, which could be a criticism over the lore of the game (Sawyer) or the narrative (Fenstermaker), or both. We also know that PoE's writing team had problems agreeing on what kind of story to tell (so much that they ended up having almost no time to revision the plot and the texts), but at the end Fenstermaker's pitch won. Maybe MCA wasn't satisfied with the choosing process or how the team was working or with the pitch itself and lost interest over the project, desiring to do something else, and in fact we know that he started working on Tyranny in early 2014 and that he was the initial creative lead, although he said that later on he was continually dragged off of it to from the higher ups to work on other stuff and because of his owner responsibilities maybe.
Even Sawyer himself have said that in a hypothetical PoE2 he would've changed how he managed the story side of the game, giving more direction to the team and managing more like he did with New Vegas (aka making the high design of the factions, critical path, central themes and then setting the designers loose), so it's safe to assume that he himself wasn't satisfied with PoE's narrative process. Same goes for Fenstermaker, who in the Codex interview did not appear too happy about the writing process and would've liked to have more time and change some things in the next game (less companions but more fleshed out personalities, shorter game with more reactivity, etc.).
 

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