From Software Bloodborne. Discuss or die!

[Machocruz]

I think BB is top 3 among all their games since DeS, and a stone cold modern classic, but I agree with some criticisms. The game starts to lose steam, for me, after Yahar'gul in terms of art direction, narrative, bosses. Not as bad as latter DS1, but the journey begins to lose its magic, I get tired of the general charcoal hue, and I'm looking to just finish the game. The art direction is otherwise sumptuous and cool. No one in vg has done this kind of thing with more majesty, you have to go to stuff like Coppola's Dracula, Hammer films, Vampire Hunter D, Alien*, etc. to find anything comparable.

It's a fun Lovecraft creature feature, but I agree it doesn't really convey his print. Visual media almost always fails to; existentially dreadful implication turns to base animal terror when you actually see the beast. I've seen very few people out there acknowledge the Stoker and Poe influences, which I think it is better at and another reason I prefer the first half. I feel story criticism of these games is often a criticism of players who say they have great stories. I've been indifferent to From's approach. Sekiro was more interesting to me in that it's story was more conventional and that the denizens of its world felt a little more involved in it and with each other. Still not a living world, but characters are less like isolated, disconnected weirdos in a dead or dying one.

I noticed zero frame rate issues on PS5, it did feel very good to move around the world re Silva , but so many people have complained about performance on PS4 I have no reason to believe that there isn't a problem. For many reasons I still see FS as a AA developer and they have AA issues. Not an excuse at this point, but I do expect jank.

Combat mechanics are fine, not bad or amazing. Style carries here as in many other places in this game, and not being a mechanicsfag purist, that is enough. Viscerals are never not satisfying, moreso than any combat maneuvers Souls has ever offered me, and without them the game would suffer. The "breaking" of limbs to stagger is also damn satisfying. I've always thought trick weapons are like another version of having two different weapons equipped in Souls. I'm sure others can cite nuanced mechanical differences, but I can see how someone could feel there's not much different from Souls.

I don't know, just wanted to talk about Bloodborne today.

*not gothic horror, but BB's lighting style, color schemes, and the geography in Nightmare Frontier/of Mensis recall it and Giger's work.

 

[Silva]

Machocruz , I played it on PS5 recently and agree the performance feels better than PS4.

About it's horror trappings, I agree about the Stoker influences (never read Poe), but I also think it drinks more from Lovecraft's surrealist, dreamcycle works than his popular "fear the unknown" ones, specially lategame & the DLC with those dreamlike levels (and here is a rare case where chromatic aberration added to the experience, IMO).

And I've played with DLC since my first playthrough so I never felt that lategame was a letdown. I can see how base game alone could feel like that though, yeah.

 

[Machocruz]

Like the Halfling, I don't care about the alien spiders shit. But I prefer the mundane horror iconography, like werewolves, evil crows, men with pitchforks, vampires, blood rituals, cobblestone streets, etc. I do like some later game stuff like Mergo's because of the grim reaper visual elements.

Still haven't played the DLC. A major crime, I know. I would if I still had a console. Next thing I did immediately after my first vanilla completion was to do NG+ and a NG character, chalices. After that I sold the PS5 for reasons and I never got to OH.

 

[Silva]

Still haven't played the DLC.

Well, that explains it.

Not only Old Hunters is the best From DLC ever, I'd say it's integral to the game. I mean, you never saw the transformation into beast or kin that's at center of the Insight x Beast theme, nor iconic stuff like the Pizza Cutter, Lady Maria, Fishing Village or LUDWIG THE ACCURSED. I mean , I.. huh.. man, it's like you stopped watching a TV series' season halfway, right when the best part was coming up.

 

[Machocruz]

Not only Old Hunters is the best From DLC ever, but I'd say it's integral to the game. I mean, you never saw the transformation into beast or kin that's at center of the Insight x Beast theme, nor iconic stuff like the Pizza Cutter, Lady Maria, Fishing Village or LUDWIG THE FUCKING ACCURSED. I mean , I.. huh.. man, it's like you stopped watching a TV series' season halfway, right when the best part was coming up.

Yep I know people think it's essential. I haven't seen the whole game but I've seen all the weapons and bosses, just not in a playthrough of my own. It's gonna happen some day. I still have my BB disc standing by. I'm very looking forward to Ludwig, i want to use beast cutter in the main game, try my hand at the infamous sharks. I'm not a fan of the fishing village setting though, just not my kind of scene. I wonder if Ludwig will be as difficult as people say, because his attacks don't look that hard to see coming and he doesn't look super fast. Now Orphan looks intense and intimidating, but at the same time fair. But then I also thought Shadows and Gherman would not be much trouble...

 

[Halfling Rodeo]

Like the Halfling, I don't care about the alien spiders shit. But I prefer the mundane horror iconography, like werewolves, evil crows, men with pitchforks, vampires, blood rituals, cobblestone streets, etc. I do like some later game stuff like Mergo's because of the grim reaper visual elements.

The crows are some of my favourite enemies in any game ever. They're fat little fucks and they bark at you. It's so weird but I like it. I did hate the switch from the mundane horror to the alien stuff. It's so much less interesting design wise and neither concept is fully explored.

Not only Old Hunters is the best From DLC ever, but I'd say it's integral to the game. I mean, you never saw the transformation into beast or kin that's at center of the Insight x Beast theme, nor iconic stuff like the Pizza Cutter, Lady Maria, Fishing Village or LUDWIG THE FUCKING ACCURSED. I mean , I.. huh.. man, it's like you stopped watching a TV series' season halfway, right when the best part was coming up.

Yep I know people think it's essential. I haven't seen the whole game but I've seen all the weapons and bosses, just not in a playthrough of my own. It's gonna happen some day. I still have my BB disc standing by. I'm very looking forward to Ludwig, i want to use beast cutter in the main game, try my hand at the infamous sharks. I'm not a fan of the fishing village setting though, just not my kind of scene. I wonder if Ludwig will be as difficult as people say, because his attacks don't look that hard to see coming and he doesn't look super fast. Now Orphan looks intense and intimidating, but at the same time fair. But then I also thought Shadows and Gherman would not be much trouble...

I don't understand why you would watch other people play a souls game before you finish it. Exploration is such a big part of the games why would you want to see someone else fight the bosses before you get to?

 

[Machocruz]

I don't understand why you would watch other people play a souls game before you finish it. Exploration is such a big part of the games why would you want to see someone else fight the bosses before you get to?

Because gothic horror is my crack and I was bored laid up in bed for a couple days and I lack willpower. Exploring the environments is more the reward to me anyway, and those parts I skipped over.

 

[Great Deceiver]

It's a fun Lovecraft creature feature, but I agree it doesn't really convey his print.

I wrote that it's Lovecraftian without being derivative; by that I meant it doesn't ape common Lovecraft motifs just because lol tentacles, there is a quintessential feeling of cosmic horror beyond the initial aesthetic Gothic trappings, which if you think about it mirrors Lovecraft's own evolution as an author, from a simple emulator of Poe and Blackwood to more mature writings in the vein of Dunsany/Machen (especially the Dream Cycle, which I consider far superior to everything else he wrote, especially as I grow older).

It's not the narrative that is especially Lovecraftian (in fact I don't much care about the narrative at all beyond the basic beast x kin dynamic), but the feeling of something out there beyond your perception that influences and even governs things that you're not even aware of. The insight mechanic worked quite brilliantly; the first time I saw an Amygdala perched on a wall outside Oedon Chapel was a genuine moment of awe, those happen very, very rarely in games for me.

Going back to the Dream Cycle, to my mind Bloodborne is basically a reinterpretation of Lovecraft's Dreamlands. It's carefully and tastefully done, and doesn't ape any one particular aspect of the author, but rather coalesces its influences into an original whole. That's very commendable and a rare thing, especially in games. In this I very much disagree with your assessment that the game is a 'creature feature'; it doesn't do easy/gratuitous tentacle monster homages.

As with any game, it is somewhat inconsistent - for example, I don't particularly care about the fishing hamlet at the end that apes Innsmouth; however, it's more consistent than most, and when it works, it really works. It's truly an inspired piece of work, the likes of which From haven't produced since.

 

[Machocruz]

The insight mechanic worked quite brilliantly; the first time I saw an Amygdala perched on a wall Oedon Chapel was a genuine moment of awe, those happen very, very rarely.

Going back to the Dream Cycle, to my mind Bloodborne is basically a reinterpretation of Lovecraft's Dreamlands. It's carefully and tastefully done, and doesn't ape any one particular aspect of the author, but rather coalesces its influences into an original whole. That's very commendable and a rare thing, especially in games. In this I very much disagree with your assessment that the game is a 'creature feature'; it doesn't do easy Cthulhu homages.

As with any game, it is inconsistent; however, it's more consistent than most, and when it works, it really works. It's truly an inspired piece of work, the likes of which From haven't produced since.

I agree that is an effective moment, would be the climax in a film or adventure game. Wouldn't even minded if they went further with it and shown a brief flash of some enormous cosmic monstrosity looming in the background, or something like that.

Wasn't necessarily being dismissive. I don't mean "creature feature" in the film world sense of cheap thrills. Let's say the original Godzilla is the equivalent of Lovecraft in print, I'm not saying Blooborne is Destroy All Monsters smackdown. It's more like Castlevania using the horror movie catalog as foes for an action game, and at their best, I do not consider CV games cheap or disposable at all. But being an action game, the rubber has to eventually meet the road and what is cause for existential dread and madness, to be fled from in print has to be "reduced" to combat encounters and the satisfaction of beating shoggoth to death. Allusions to syphillis are secondary to Belmont whipping Dracula in the mouth. Bloodborne goes a lot further with its influences than CV, but hopefully you get my point.

Speaking of the Dream Cycle, I experienced my only night terror the evening I read Dreams in the Witch House . I woke up in the middle of the night and thought someone was standing at the foot of my bed, reaching out towards me. I yelled, sprung up, and threw a roundhouse kick at the air. Then I ran around the condo trying to see where "he" went. I was breathing like I had just survived a lion attack. The cosmic horror stuff that everyone dick rides him for never had anywhere near that effect.

 

[Halfling Rodeo]

Wasn't necessarily being dismissive. I don't mean "creature feature" in the film world sense of cheap thrills. Let's say the original Godzilla is the equivalent of Lovecraft in print, I'm not saying Blooborne is Destroy All Monsters smackdown. It's more like Castlevania using the horror movie catalog as foes for an action game, and at their best, I do not consider CV games cheap or disposable at all. But being an action game, the rubber has to eventually meet the road and what is cause for existential dread and madness, to be fled from in print has to be "reduced" to combat encounters and the satisfaction of beating shoggoth to death. Allusions to syphillis are secondary to Belmont whipping Dracula in the mouth. Bloodborne goes a lot further with its influences than CV, but hopefully you get my point.

I never thought about it before but you're right and it's probably Bloodborne's biggest issue. The game doesn't present any enemies you don't just bash to death with your cane. The brain is the only enemy I can think of you don't simply hit with your stick like a common ruffian. The lore acts like these creatures are other worldly and beyond human comprehension. But I still just smack them until they die and that's the problem solved. Kos even gives 'birth' to a human who basically just tries to whack you with a large club. It's not something we as humans could never comprehend and even the weirdest designs ultimately aren't any weirder than Seeth or Gaping and aren't any more challenging than any of the dragons we're already seen over and over. You simply whack them until they die. The Moon presence is supposed to be master minding so much of the story and it's not even any more alien than half the shit in Elden ring. The infected tree spirits feel more other worldly to me than anything in Bloodborne and Bloodborne's creepiest enemies are easily the big werewolves and how well they're animated. They feel like a predator stalking their prey in a way nothing else in the game really taps into.

The lore switch is supposed to be this big revelation that changes everything and it doesn't change a single thing in the game play. The background dressing changes but that's the entire difference from how you start the game to how you end it. They don't force any weird monsters on you requiring special solutions. If anything it actually makes the game less mysterious because the invisible thing killing you before is now revealed to be a copy and pasted boss you may have already beaten or will do so not too much deeper into the game. To really tap into a big lore switch like it does, it needs to have it's reveal impact how you respond to enemies. They could have forced you to bless your weapon and put enemies you couldn't hurt between the reveal and you getting it blessed or they could have found non-combat ways to interact with the kin. But From are scared of non-combat anything after Bed of Chaos and it's left unexplored. It's so underwhelming for what should be Earth shattering for your character. You just keep rolling and pressing R1 from the first enemy to the final boss and you as a player haven't had to adapt or change to anything abnormal or thought provoking. Dragon God is a more Lovecraft creature and even boss fight than anything in Bloodborne and that is a problem when you want the player to be invested in more than item descriptions.

 

[Silva]

I yelled, sprung up, and threw a roundhouse kick at the air.

 

[Machocruz]

I yelled, sprung up, and threw a roundhouse kick at the air.

Well the air I thought was some burned man in a wife beater. Sorry, my kirkhammer was out for repairs. For some reason I also react to threats in my dreams with kicking.

 

[Silva]

This talk got me psyched up for another BB playthrough... except my PSplus subscription is frozen. That means I can't access glyphs for those buffed gems. So, while I ponder on reactivating my subscription, lemme think loud here on builds I never tried but wish I had. Please, feel free to comment. (Hey The Great Deceiver , maybe this sounds interesting to you)

- - -


The Tomb Prospector

Cool story: these guys got me into the game. I remember being cold on BB at release, as gothic horror was never really my thing. Then I stumble with a wiki entry and my mind goes "Wait.. are these dudes supposed Victorian tomb raiders, scouring eldritch ruins for monstruosities and loot, all the while wearing this mix of Indiana Jones and sicko religious garb? Like, a mesh of D&D, Lovecraft and Raiders of Lost Ark!? FUUUUUUUUU". I was mind BLOWN. One of coolest concepts I've seen in my 40 years of gaming, right there with Shadowrunners and Delta Green agents (if you don't know Delta Green, do yourself a favor and read the TVTropes entry). From that day on I was set on getting a PS4, and I wouldn't regret it even if Bloodborne was the only game the console ever played.

So,

what's an interesting build to "roleplay" a member of this group (bl 125, so I can see online action later) ? Functionally I see it as a generalist, making use of every shit those Church inventors put out at the time. So maybe a "soft quality build"? Like, a 40/40/20/20 spread (for Str/Skl/Bld/Arc) would sacrifice the optimal caps but open up a wider assortment of tools right? Would it be effective though (and feasible at bl 125) ?

Edit: oh forgot to ask, are Root Chalices worth it offline? Has anyone tried them like this?


P.S: last image above is from a Darkest Dungeon mod:

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2637269241

 

[D_X]

Like, a 40/40/20/20 spread (for Str/Skl/Bld/Arc) would sacrifice the optimal caps but open up a wider assortment of tools right? Would it be effective though (and feasible at bl 125) ?

Depends on what you mean by tools but I don't see what benefit you're gonna get out of, well, anything with just 20 Bld and Arc.

I'd forget about Bld and just go with 15 Arc so you can use the shell and the bone, 18 maybe if you also want the augur, 20 would give you the gloves but I doubt they'll be much use with just that. If you insist on that spread, Noble Scion gives the best starting stats so you don't end up with jack all in terms of hp and stamina.

I guess the higher Bld would get you the Church Cannon, but at 10 bullets per pop, I'm not sold on it.

 

[Silva]

Depends on what you mean by tools but I don't see what benefit you're gonna get out of, well, anything with just 20 Bld and Arc.

I'd forget about Bld and just go with 15 Arc so you can use the shell and the bone, 18 maybe if you also want the augur, 20 would give you the gloves but I doubt they'll be much use with just that. If you insist on that spread, Noble Scion gives the best starting stats so you don't end up with jack all in terms of hp and stamina.

I guess the higher Bld would get you the Church Cannon, but at 10 bullets per pop, I'm not sold on it.

Makes sense, thanks.

I'll probably go Arc 15 then. Any of those tools are useful even with low stat (besides the bone)? Like, is the shell dependant on stat scaling? Is Augur useful for anything besides damage (maybe area control)? Same for the blackeye ?

For weapons, LHB will probably be my best option as a "qualityish" build. Church Pick would fit the character (it's a digging tool afterall), but I never tried it myself. A lot of people online praise it.

How about offline Root chalices, have your tried it?

 

[D_X]

The shell doesn't scale, it just straight up buffs the weapon. Augur might be useful in pvp for parrying and staggering even without the damage. Dunno about the blackeye tho' as I've never used it.

Didn't bother too much with the root chalices since chalices are ass and I only went all the way to the end once and then I just used seeds to generate ones that have the stuff I want. Otherwise, going in randomly in them seems like a pain. You might get lucky, you might just waste your time. Might have better luck in getting gems, but even so you'd have to do the regular ones all the way to lowest depth.

 

[Silva]

Current gossip on the webz: Sony is prepping a 10 years anniversary remaster of BB to be released in 2025, for PC and PS5.

The shell doesn't scale, it just straight up buffs the weapon. Augur might be useful in pvp for parrying and staggering even without the damage. Dunno about the blackeye tho' as I've never used it.

Didn't bother too much with the root chalices since chalices are ass and I only went all the way to the end once and then I just used seeds to generate ones that have the stuff I want. Otherwise, going in randomly in them seems like a pain. You might get lucky, you might just waste your time. Might have better luck in getting gems, but even so you'd have to do the regular ones all the way to lowest depth.

Decided going 18 Arcane for those tentacles, after seeing in YT vids how easy it makes pullling criticals, specially when two-handing the LHB.

Speaking of LHB, I'm dissatisfied. Sure it hits like a truck but It's moveset is dull. The small sword one is problematic against crowds when not locked-up, due to the vertical slash in mid of it that misses a lot. So I'm using it just for the greatsword form (against big fellas), and keeping the Saw-cleaver for everything else.

And speaking of Saw cleaver, it's a beast isn't it? As a primary Dex player, I always went for the Saw-spear early on and never gave the Cleaver a proper chance. Now I see my mistake - the Cleaver's transformed form has some great horizontal slashes to deal with crowds, and a smashing attack (the follwoing to charged R2), making it a more versatile option. I think I prefer it over the Saw-spear now.

Just opened the DLC area. Looking forward to the Church Pick. I've read it has anti-beast damage not for being serrated but for being a fucking stake and inspired by the old Stoker's piercing beasts in the heart stories. Cool huh?

 

[Anonona]

And speaking of Saw cleaver, it's a beast isn't it?

Yeah. I may be remembering it wrong, but I think someone did the math and Saw Cleaver is potentially the weapon with more DPS of the game. No as much burst damage as other options, but it will hurt constantly while having a great moveset both transformed and without transforming. Also I think is transformation attack may be it's main source of damage if I recall correctly.

 

[D_X]

I've used the spear more than the cleaver because it's serrated in both forms and wrecks beast type enemies of which there are plenty at the start, however I've always switched to something else after Amelia, sometimes even before (currently doing a stake driver run and I got it as soon as I could get to Djura). But if I were to pick one to use for the whole game, yeah, I think would prefer the cleaver's move set over the spear's.

 

[Anonona]

Another good option is the church Pick. It does piercing damage, which not a single enemy on the game resists. It wrecks enemies like is nobody business.

ps: Oh, sorry, I looked it up, and is not that enemies do not resist piercing damage, is that every enemy is weak to piercing damage.

 

[Silva]

Another good option is the church Pick. It does piercing damage, which not a single enemy on the game resists. It wrecks enemies like is nobody business.

ps: Oh, sorry, I looked it up, and is not that enemies do not resist piercing damage, is that every enemy is weak to piercing damage.

Piercing, righteous and "serrated" (it's stake is considered anti-beast). This sounds amazing. Can't wait to try.

 

[Silva]

Shit, to get the Church Pick I must go to 3rd floor of Research Hall for some key. I hate that level.

 

[cvv]

I hate that level.

It's a good level then.

 

[Silva]

I hate that level.

It's a good level then.

I mean, yeah, it's a probably a good level from a purely technical pov.

My problem with it is how dark it is, both in visuals and lore-wise. And it's enemies are kinda groteque and hit like trucks. it depresses me.

 

[D_X]

I don't really like the hall. Sure, I'll take it over a linear corridor, but the rotating staircase gimmick irks me as it's just busywork and there are too many of those shithead enemies. Guess they wanted to make Duke's Archives 2.0 and that level sucked ass. At least there's no fucking invisible ledges level after it.