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Blizzard extends a ginormous middle finger.

Kraszu

Prophet
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Poland
Bruticis said:
Ulminati said:
I was, yes. Past tense though.

OK, I'll bite...Why? What can they possible do to an ARPG to make it any different then all the other ARPGs? New and improved, next gen smoke particles?

Not that I had expected it from Diablo 3, but I would like arpg that is challenging from 1st level, with allot of randomization, where there is no safe town to run to, but where you just try to get as far as you can. Hardcore obviously, in other words game build around hardcore mode, not playing hardcore mode in game not designed for it.
 

Raghar

Arcane
Vatnik
Joined
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Messages
22,801
2) “For a variety of gameplay and security reasons, we will not be supporting bots or mods in Diablo III, and they’ll be expressly prohibited by our terms of use for the game.”
That's actually quite reasonable. Why spend three months to provide interface for mods, and three months to create tools for modders? That's quite a bit of effort used for 30 modders in the world, and these months could be spend for bug testing, fine tuning, and properly polishing the resulting game so it will not need patch. For example Assassin creed 2 required just a small patch to remove negligible annoyance and few next to unnoticeable problems. (Of course Ubisoft were fucking bastards with theirs copy protection. They learned and remedied it in Assassin creed: Brotherhood, where they rather gave bonuses, additional quests to legal users, and added few minigames for Facebook users.)

Why screwing yourself just for some modders who are violating copyright anyway? If they want to dissasemble the program and do it in theirs own home illegally, nobody would stop them, as long as they wont be abusing with respect to developers or do any trouble.

I would rather have a reliable game at the release where game rules will not change in patch noticeably, than a crappy stuff that permits modding.

3) “We think it’s really going to add a lot of depth to the game. If I have more money than time I can purchase items, or if I’m leet in the game I can get benefits out of it. The players really want it. This is something that we know people are going to do either way. We can provide them a really safe, awesome, fun experience, or they’ll find ways of doing it elsewhere.”
This stuff is actually somehow problematic. Look at it from a perspective of a competent ruler of the country. Basically they want to provide something similar to banking services without adhering to additional restrictions that differs banks from normal companies. For example they are obliged to act in best interest of theirs client. Translated when they have choice between bonning the client to get back money, or spending effort to protect client and get back money, they are obliged to spend the effort. Inability to fulfill the obligation ends in fines, forced governance for a while, or a licence revocation. (Some countries which were brainwashed by western countries into licking arses of so called market forces might be without that law, or unwilling to enforce it, but smart country protects theirs fiscal "market"/enforces quality of companies that provides auctions/fiscal services.) Considering Blizzard is providing this "service" worldwide they can get into problems with law of certain countries.

(Technically this service is comparable with bank like transferring money and taking fees for that. Taking 1/4 of transferred moneys will not make it something else. Some countries does have laws for stuff like poker, but poker is game where players are supposed to play for money, or chips.)

The best idea would be making terms of service that outlaws paying for stuff like that and enforce it. Taking part on selling and buying virtual items just legalizes it and encourages amoral behavior.

1) “One of the things that we felt was really important was that if you did play offline, if we allowed for that experience, you’d start a character, you’d get him all the way to level 20 or level 30 or level 40 or what have you, and then at that point you might decide to want to venture onto Battle.net. But you’d have to start a character from scratch, because there’d be no way for us to guarantee no cheats were involved, if we let you play on the client and then take that character online.” Also, piracy.
I actually thought they are talking about online play only. Basically they sounded like they are taking about multiplayer. Then I looked at original site.

Very funny retards.

At least we know a name of a person who should be hit by a class action lawsuit, Rob Pardo. They want to authente player character for a single player game? Isn't that a violation of copyright? Next time they would say a manufacturer of Photoshop would like to authenticate all user's drawings. It would be funny when they would stop doing theirs business and all online servers would be shut down.

Looks like, they changed from we are making game and we give a shit about what players say to we are trying to rob them dry and don't give a shit what players say.

The trouble is, the whole ideas looks like they have origin in heads of upper management.
 

Trash

Pointing and laughing.
Joined
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Messages
29,683
Location
About 8 meters beneath sea level.
The demand for a constant internet connection is the reason why I won't be buying this game. When I spend my money on a game I want to be able to play it on my pc or laptop when I want to. DRM is getting to be more and more invasive and I for one do not intend to support this shit habit by buying games that force it down my throat.

Them 'prohibiting' mods only serves to ram down their disdain towards their fanbase. They say 'fuck you' to their customers? I'll remember that next time I intend to spend some good money on a game.


Anyway, any clue towards what caused this change? Movement in the top of Blizzard? New lawyer team? Management coke habit going out of control?
 

Raghar

Arcane
Vatnik
Joined
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Messages
22,801
IronicNeurotic said:
Raghar said:
Wolfus said:
Diablo is not RPG. It's just action game with some (few) RPG elements.
Doesn't matter. It has sufficient number of RPG elements to be on RPG forum. In addition, it has a story.

Oh that incoherent linear C&c less mess of clichees and downright copied/ripped off stuff from other sources? Including reusing of plotpoints? Well shit, that makes every game with a story ever an rpg.

You might like to look at previous sentence and try to combine both sentences together.

D2 was better without choices and consequences. The world didn't run around the main character, the main character was only one part of the story.
 

Xor

Arcane
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Messages
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Raghar said:
They want to authente player character for a single player game? Isn't that a violation of copyright?

What?
 

Shannow

Waster of Time
Joined
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Messages
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Location
Finnegan's Wake
Raghar said:
2) “For a variety of gameplay and security reasons, we will not be supporting bots or mods in Diablo III, and they’ll be expressly prohibited by our terms of use for the game.”
That's actually quite reasonable. Why spend three months to provide interface for mods, and three months to create tools for modders? That's quite a bit of effort used for 30 modders in the world, and these months could be spend for bug testing, fine tuning, and properly polishing the resulting game so it will not need patch. For example Assassin creed 2 required just a small patch to remove negligible annoyance and few next to unnoticeable problems. (Of course Ubisoft were fucking bastards with theirs copy protection. They learned and remedied it in Assassin creed: Brotherhood, where they rather gave bonuses, additional quests to legal users, and added few minigames for Facebook users.)

Why screwing yourself just for some modders who are violating copyright anyway? If they want to dissasemble the program and do it in theirs own home illegally, nobody would stop them, as long as they wont be abusing with respect to developers or do any trouble.

I would rather have a reliable game at the release where game rules will not change in patch noticeably, than a crappy stuff that permits modding.
Huh? Your whole argument (weak as it is, IMO) hinges upon Blizz not supporting mods. It has no relevance on "prohibiting" them. What do you (or Blizz for that matter) care whether or not somebody is using a mod with his SP game or not?
It doesn't affect development costs or online competition or anything else. Just a gamer, a mod and a computer. Nobody to judge or care. As long as the modders don't try to sell their mods or reverse engineer the game to steal source code or some such thing and use that for their financial advantage or Blizz' disadvantage I don't even see copyright problems.
 

MMXI

Arcane
Joined
Apr 28, 2011
Messages
2,196
Vault Dweller said:
MMXI said:
So you think the difference between a list and a tree is merely cosmetic?
Yes. It's a chart, basically, and as such it illustrates the pre-requisites better and thus help you plan your character better, that's all. In NWN2, for example, if you want to get Whirlwind, you need Combat Expertise (need INT 13) and Spring Attack, which requires Mobility, which requires Dodge.
Exactly. And the entire idea behind having to get the prerequisites is stupid given that you only ever put a single point into them in the first place. It doesn't help you plan your character better because it would be easier to plan without having trees at all. The trees don't help you to build your character because without them there would be no structure in place to work your way around.

Vault Dweller said:
Like I said, play Torchlight and compare. It has sockets, different unique types, set items, prefix and suffix, yet the difference is huge.
Still a shitty system. When I kill a small little midget with a dagger, why the hell do I get a massive unique maul from his corpse?
 

Shannow

Waster of Time
Joined
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Messages
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Location
Finnegan's Wake
Trash said:
Anyway, any clue towards what caused this change? Movement in the top of Blizzard? New lawyer team? Management coke habit going out of control?
I blame "suits". Corporate and advertising norms are taking over all aspects of life. And when they show how hollow they are (financial crisis) they simply come back stronger.
Companies that still try to treat their customers like kings (albeit not by making great games) like CDproject, they get sued...

/derail to GD
 

Xor

Arcane
Joined
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Messages
9,345
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Shannow said:
Raghar said:
2) “For a variety of gameplay and security reasons, we will not be supporting bots or mods in Diablo III, and they’ll be expressly prohibited by our terms of use for the game.”
That's actually quite reasonable. Why spend three months to provide interface for mods, and three months to create tools for modders? That's quite a bit of effort used for 30 modders in the world, and these months could be spend for bug testing, fine tuning, and properly polishing the resulting game so it will not need patch. For example Assassin creed 2 required just a small patch to remove negligible annoyance and few next to unnoticeable problems. (Of course Ubisoft were fucking bastards with theirs copy protection. They learned and remedied it in Assassin creed: Brotherhood, where they rather gave bonuses, additional quests to legal users, and added few minigames for Facebook users.)

Why screwing yourself just for some modders who are violating copyright anyway? If they want to dissasemble the program and do it in theirs own home illegally, nobody would stop them, as long as they wont be abusing with respect to developers or do any trouble.

I would rather have a reliable game at the release where game rules will not change in patch noticeably, than a crappy stuff that permits modding.
Huh? Your whole argument (weak as it is, IMO) hinges upon Blizz not supporting mods. It has no relevance on "prohibiting" them. What do you (or Blizz for that matter) care whether or not somebody is using a mod with his SP game or not?
It doesn't affect development costs or online competition or anything else. Just a gamer, a mod and a computer. Nobody to judge or care. As long as the modders don't try to sell their mods or reverse engineer the game to steal source code or some such thing and use that for their financial advantage or Blizz' disadvantage I don't even see copyright problems.

As I understand it, technically most modding is a violation of copyright law under the DMCA if you circumvent protection to access game files; that is, unpacking data files, breaking encryption, modify the exe, etc. But I don't think anybody actually gives a shit when it comes to PC games.

And yeah, there might be security reasons for Blizzard to disallow mods, but that's still no excuse. I LIKE modding my games. It's one of the biggest advantages PC gaming has over console gaming.
 

Trash

Pointing and laughing.
Joined
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About 8 meters beneath sea level.
Wouldn't be surprised if at closer scrutiny it would turn out that there have been a few changes in the management of Blizzard. A company that makes as much money as them is bound to keep growing and attract more and more suits. Unchecked growth, ambition and the greed stemming from that have killed a fair share of great game developers.
 

Kashrlyyk

Scholar
Joined
Jan 24, 2010
Messages
112
Raghar said:
... Why spend three months to provide interface for mods, and three months to create tools for modders?.....
As far as I know Blizzard did nothing of that sort for Diablo 2 and still people managed to make mods for it.
 

St. Toxic

Arcane
Joined
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Messages
9,098
Location
Yemen / India
That online activation thing is bad news. Now it'll probably take a month or more before we get a cracked release, and local coop could literally take ages to implement. :/
 

Shannow

Waster of Time
Joined
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Messages
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Finnegan's Wake
Ed123 said:
Excidium said:
But Torchlight 2 is going to be a multiplayer game.

It is? I thought it included SP with mod support like T1.

Oh well I guess I could have a look at Darkspor- :rage:
So far Grim Dawn looks like the most promissing contender. But it's probably still quite far off and I personally don't expect much from the makers of Titan Quest either.
Considering that I expected a whole slew of Diablo clones coming around this time it doesn't look like that particular itch will be scratched.
Then again, perhaps D3 or Grim Dawn turn out to be ok and not like DS3...

@Xor: Exactly. What I consider not to be "problematic" might not be the same as what is "legal". But laws can be changed.
 

msxyz

Augur
Joined
Jun 5, 2011
Messages
296
Vault Dweller said:
Does anyone still pay for hour for internet these days? Aren't you always online anyway? I don't think it means that you can't play a single player game as someone in this thread claimed.

I was one of the unfortunate customers of silent hunter v (even though i knew it would suck, i was starving for a subsim ) which required a constant internet connection despite being, for the most part, a single player game.

Not only the game wouldn't start without logging (and the servers crashed often during the first week, remaining unreachable for two whole days at a point) but the game kicked the players out if connection was lost for a mere few seconds. Playing via WiFi was out of question. A patch mitigated the second issue but the first perdured. Oh, did I mention the horrible savegame sync feature that resulted, sometimes, in hours of hard work lost?

even if at home i've been enjoying my flat tariff fiber connection for ten years now, i travel often carrying a few games with me. Having to rely on public hotspots for playing is something i don't recommend to anyone. 3g? The quality of connection fluctuates wildly and drop outs are frequents. And then there are times when a conection, not even a crappy one, is available at all.

That's why i won't even buy again a game needing constant internet connection. Not a game that's supposed to be played also as a single player. It's not a matter of being cheap.
 

St. Toxic

Arcane
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Messages
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Location
Yemen / India
Trying the "Rise of Flight" demo was also quite the experience. The validation server was down for easily 2 weeks, so that's a full 14 days delay between downloading a file and shooting at some bots in sp. I'd be pretty pissed had I put any money down though.
 

Mastermind

Cognito Elite Material
Patron
Bethestard
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Messages
21,144
Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Bruticis said:
Ulminati said:
I was, yes. Past tense though.

OK, I'll bite...Why? What can they possible do to an ARPG to make it any different then all the other ARPGs? New and improved, next gen smoke particles?

There aren't that many arpgs in diablo's style. Twitcher 2 for example is an entirely different breed of arpg, as are the goldbox games. :troll:
 

Metro

Arcane
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Messages
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Excidium said:
I think it will include single player mode, but co-op is the main selling point of TL2.

Well there's a big difference between co-op being a game's main selling point and requiring online play. Pretty sure you can do everything in TL2 single player than you can in co-op... except play with other people.
 

Varn

Educated
Joined
Jun 24, 2010
Messages
152
The problem with D3 and D2 in my view is the lack of world PvP with consequences for dying. In D2 they made it very hard to kill another player in the world because they got warned that you were coming by the fact you could only go hostile in town. And when hostile you couldn't tele through town portals. Even if you did manage to kill another player Eg by hunting them from the waypoint there were few consequences for them dying other than the loss of their gold and a loss of some XP. You couldn't loot any of their items, making PvP somewhat pointless other than as an annoyance for other players.

So items really didn't mean much other than bragging rights and being able to kill the Uber-Bosses. They gave you no real power over other players because even if you could kill somone in PvP, no-one cared. I never understood then why people would pay for items as the incentive just wasn't there - you would have no sense of reward from donning the items and you'd be better off just hunting for them so that at least you would feel you accomplished something.

Contrast this with Ultima Online, which I played for a long time. You could attack anyone in the world or even in town whenever you felt like it. If you managed to kill another player you could loot everything they had on their person and keep it. This meant that items were extremely important because they enabled you to both survive in the world and also to become a player-killer. There's nothing as fun as hunting down some sucker and killing him then taking all his hard-earnt loot. Much of the game consisted of hunting for items, then once you were powerful enough, stalking other players to try to kill them for loot. You could even engage in deceptive practices like luring other players from the safety of town on the promise of a trade for items then ambush them and steal their items.

The PvP system in Ultima Online made the world both dangerous and exciting. There were guild wars, feared PK's, no-go towns (as they didn't have guards) and even no-go hunting spots where the players with the best items would hunt weaker players. Finding rare items to protect yourself was very enjoyable because of the rewards you would get from having top-end items, and also the risk involved in hunting - you could ultimately lose the cruddy suit that took you 3 weeks to accumulate and have to start all over again without getting anywhere. Paying for items even made sense so that you could finally take out the top players without having to hunt for weeks with the risk of being killed and losing your items just when you're getting good.

IMO they should adopt this system in D3 if they really want to make money out of the real cash AH. Players would buy more and more items whenever they get PK'ed so that they could go out and get revenge. They would also play longer as the incentive for finding items is far greater.

But I doubt they will because people are too scared of a challenging game like that - they just want to sit around in town like barbie dolls wearing their new items.
 

waywardOne

Arcane
Joined
Aug 28, 2010
Messages
2,318
Where's the challenge? Your entire post is about power through item acquisition, and with only a few viable PvP builds it certainly isn't any kind of tactical or strategic skill involved other than ability spamming. I climbed enough HC ladders to realize how formulaic and boring your dream scenario is. The problem was, is, and will always be people like you that think PKing someone with a giganticly less statistical chance of survival is some kind of accomplishment. Had you any pride at all, the true challenge is starting from scratch and surviving, not gorging your fat carcass on all the others that have to.
 

DwarvenFood

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Menckenstein said:
I'm surprised they aren't charging a subscription fee for this shit. :roll:

Well, they still got a couple of months to think of exactly that. Also they already charge for merely being able to sell items.

I wonder what will come after D3 though, hopefully a new innovative game......







who am I kidding
 

Menckenstein

Lunacy of Caen: Todd Reaver
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DwarvenFood said:
Menckenstein said:
I'm surprised they aren't charging a subscription fee for this shit. :roll:

Well, they still got a couple of months to think of exactly that. Also they already charge for merely being able to sell items.

I wonder what will come after D3 though, hopefully a new innovative game......







who am I kidding

Lost Vikings MMO
 

kris

Arcane
Joined
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Messages
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Lulea, Sweden
PvP have no place in a game like Diablo. We are talking about a linear game were you mash your way through waves of enemies, preferably in a group. Having PvP in a game like that is just strange and I would personally never participate.
 

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