Wizardry Bane of the Cosmic Forge character generation - my head is about to explode

[octavius]

My only experience with Wizardry is from 20 years ago when I played about halfway through Bane of the Cosmic Forge. Alas, my quest came to an end when I saved right after a massive fireball trap and quit the game, and when I restarted the game my entire party was wiped out by the same fucking fireball trap.

Now the time has come to give BotCF another try.
I've RTFM and read sage advice on Abandonia and here on the Codex, and I now have a pretty good grasp on how things work. But still I can't decide which characters I should try to roll.

Mana regeneration is based on starting class, vitality, and in the case of Faeries and Lizardmen, race.
Carrying capacity is based on starting strength and vitality, but this is considered a bug and can be fixed with an editor when strength and vitality change due to leveling up or changing class.
Vitality also governs how much HP you get.

A Bard is the only character who can use musical instruments (to cast "free" Sleep and other spells). A bard loses that ability when changing class, even though retaining the Music skill. So it seems a very good idea to start with a Bard. They can also be good at skullduggery and spell casting later, making a thief redundant.

Getting good equipment for Ninjas and Samurais is supposed to take a long time, unless you start with these classes. But choosing these classes means very little bonus points to put into vitality, which may be detrimental in the long run.

I'm leaning towards starting with a Bard, a Mage, a Priest, an Alchemist, a Psionic and one [to be decided], putting most of the bonus points into Vitality, and then change the Alchemist and Psionic to fighter types ASAP, and change them all to elite classes (Valkyrie, Ninja, Samurai, Lord) later.
The Bishop looks a bit useless since he will learn spells slower than mages and priests and be a poor fighter.
Is the Monk any good?

This game must be an accountant's dream.

 

[Monstrous Bat]

Eh, don't think too hard on it. I've beaten this game with an all-elite party without changing class before.

Bards are overpowered in the first half and useless in the second half. Having a bard in your party in the early game will make it much easier.
Psionics are shit. Take a monk instead.
Bishops are shit.
Samurais are great. They are weak in the early game, but you will find a good weapon for them fairly soon, and they become killing machines after you have obtained their ultimate weapon.

The most useful alchemist spell is Blinding Flash. Consider changing his class after he has learnt this spell.

You probably won't need a pure priest in your party, since you WILL have more than one lords/valkyries in your party anyway.

Remember to take a faerie if you plan on importing your party to Wiz 7.

But really, don't think too hard on it. If you make any mistake while creating characters you can usally fix it by changing their class. Besides, this game isn't that hard anyway.

 

[eric__s]

I had a really hard time getting characters who didn't start out with magic to catch up. Even though it hurts starting out, I think it's better in the long run to have mid-tier hybrid classes like rangers and valkyries than fighters and thieves. I like alchemists more than priests because they get the best of all worlds instead of just healing and have a lot of spells that hurt living enemies over time. They're not as good towards the end of the game, but you can change classes to something else too. Bards are a must for the beginning. Monks are good too but not at the beginning of the game and the psionic school is the worst of them.

 

[Jaesun]

Well first off you should be beginning with Wizardry VI. Then VII then VIII.

 

[octavius]

Well first off you should be beginning with Wizardry VI. Then VII then VIII.

Bane of the Comsic Forge is Wizardry VI.
And of course I'll play VII and VIII as well.
I've heard VII is brutal, so I'd like to get a good start in VI. I watched a buddy play the Gold version many years ago, and the voice acting certainly was brutal to my sensibility.
While "researching" VI before playing it, I even stumbled upon a site where I could download VIII without defiling my computer with torrents.
It's probably very hard to get an unused boxed copy these days, and as long as GOG don't offer it, I guess I should not feel too bad about it.

 

[Jaesun]

Well first off you should be beginning with Wizardry VI. Then VII then VIII.

Bane of the Comsic Forge is Wizardry VI.
And of course I'll play VII and VIII as well.

*slaps forehead* I really shouldn't post until I've had my full cup of coffee in the morning.

Good luck bro. VI is fantastic and tons of epic FFFFFFUUUUUUUU moments. You will have a blast.

EDIT: When you get to VII, play the DOS version. The Gold version has a huge problem in that all of the text in the game will scroll blindingly fast and you will never be able to read any of it (dialogue text).

 

[kmonster]

Like Monstrous Bat wrote it's not really needed to switch classes, the game is balanced for playing without class switching or reloading at level up which your planning seems to depend on, you'll feel better without reloading at level up, no need to feel like a cheese abuser if playing honestly works well.

Even a simple party consisting of 3 fighters, a thief, a priest and a mage is sufficient to beat the game.

There's enough good Samurai equipment even early in W6 and you don't have to start as ninja to get fists.
Bards are still useful late in the game. Monks are powerful.

 

[Flux_Capacitor]

For a bit more pain, there's also the miss chance for characters you need to worry about. As I recall, the way it worked was every time a character gained a level, the new level value is compared to the highest level ever reached by that character. If the new level is higher, than your miss chance will decrease by a value determined by your current class. Not surprisingly, fighter-types will have that value decrease faster (I believe Ninjas and Samurai have the best rate). For example, a 10th level Fighter that never changed class might have a miss chance of 60, while a 10th level Mage might have an 80 (it starts at 100 for all characters). If the Mage were than changed to a Fighter, they would stay at 80 until they reached level 11, at which point the miss chance would be reduced by the Fighter's miss chance for that level. Something like 2-5, if I remember right. You can severely gimp characters this way for the late game, and this isn't really documented anywhere in the official documentation.

A few other things:
- Faeries don't get a lot of the special equipment given by classes. This includes Ninja armor
- You should probably use MadGod's editor to change the algorithm for determining bonus points at character creation. This can reduce a lot of unnecessary rolling
- If you do play on going through VII and VIII as well, I suggest making most of your characters female. There are several items only they can use, and it gives them the chance to be Valkyries.
- As I recall, you need a 15 in Vitality for the bonus mana regeneration
- A character in VIII (maybe VII too) can continue to use instruments even if they aren't a Bard, if they have the music skill

If you want probably the best possible start, I'd say something like:
- Male Dwarf Priest -> Lord
- Female Rawulf Priest -> Valkyrie
- Female Elf Alchemist -> Ranger
- Female Felpurr Mage -> Samurai
- Female Mook Psionic -> Monk
- Female Faerie Bard -> Ninja

I didn't feel the Ninja and Samurai equipment were so important that I needed to start with it. This setup will maximize spell point regeneration, and allow you to use most of the best end-game gear available. Change their class to some fighter-type before reaching level 2, to maximize their miss chance benefits. The Bard you may want to hold off for a few levels so you can continue to use the Lute. The second class listed is the final class, not necessarily the one you want to switch to immediately. You may want your characters to learn some other skills/spells before finalizing their class. Ninjutsu and Kirijutsu are almost mandatory for all characters. Ninjas are good transition classes, as they gain both skills, the best miss chance, Alchemist spells, and have good base minimum scores, which makes switching to another class later quite a bit easier.

 

[Jaesun]

I typically like 2 Valkyrie, just because having 2 people that can use Silence is damn handy. That just my play style.

 

[kmonster]

For a bit more pain, there's also the miss chance for characters you need to worry about. As I recall, the way it worked was every time a character gained a level, the new level value is compared to the highest level ever reached by that character. If the new level is higher at least that high, than your miss chance will decrease by a value determined by your current class.

... you need a 15 16+ in Vitality for the bonus mana regeneration ...


... Change their class to some fighter-type before reaching level 2, to maximize their miss chance benefits Never change class before reaching level 2 since you get the full level up benefits without affecting the level up in the next class

... Ninjutsu and Kirijutsu are almost mandatory for all characters. Giving ninjitsu and kirijitsu to all characters is incredibly cheesy

fixed

 

[dr. one]

Like Monstrous Bat wrote it's not really needed to switch classes,
...
Even a simple party consisting of 3 fighters, a thief, a priest and a mage is sufficient to beat the game.

Yep.
Since the mechanics is in the game, there´s no reason to avoid changing classes entirely, but there really isn´t any need to do it often, plan for it in advance or reload at level ups.
When I played the game for the first time I knew nothing about its ins and outs in the beginning, rolled a rather basic party of fighter, thief, ranger, priest, alchemist, mage and finished the game with it without any major problems in combat, most of the time when I was stumped it was because of puzzle/adventure elements.
Speaking of which

I've heard VII is brutal,

I´d say the "brutality" of VII comes mainly from the puzzle/adventure elements combined with the big, open world.
While VII is my favourite Wizardry, I think that VI is the strongest of the last three when it comes to mixing in the puzzle elements sensibly. VIII has too little and VII is at times too difficult/unfair.
Also, I second the notion of not playing the Gold version of VII, besides the fast text problem and bad narration, diplomacy is not functional in it, iirc.

 

[Jasede]

I've answered this exact thread three times with long and detail-filled posts; I'm sorry, someone else will have to carry the torch.

 

[octavius]

Like Monstrous Bat wrote it's not really needed to switch classes, the game is balanced for playing without class switching or reloading at level up which your planning seems to depend on, you'll feel better without reloading at level up, no need to feel like a cheese abuser if playing honestly works well.

No, I have no plan on reloading at level up; that's definitely not my style.
My plan was to start with the basic spell casting classes due to the extra mana recovery they get, and also because they will also get extra bonus points to allocate to Vitality. Although spending too much on Vitality may of course mean that it takes too long to reach the needed stats to change class, so I'll not overdo it.

I am a bit torn actually. On one hand I prefer to just role play the game and not think to much about the stats, but OTOH the game seems to be designed around number crunching and career changes. And based on your comments on Abandonia you seem very fond of number crunching yourself.

I also read your comments about Dungeon Master being a much more difficult game. Is that because of the real time nature of DM?
Personally I think DM is easy, but I remember Bane being pretty difficult when I played it 20+ years ago.

I've answered this exact thread three times with long and detail-filled posts; I'm sorry, someone else will have to carry the torch.

I've read the other threads and they have been helpful.
But I was still unsure wether starting with basic spell casting classes due to the permanent extra mana recovery is better than starting with elite classes. I don't think that excact "problem" was discussed.

 

[Jasede]

I found Bane a lot harder than DM (on Expert, many fights aren't even "fair" unless you get a lucky party/1st turn; every boss is DOUBLED).

Good point you bring up; yes, it's worth starting with basic classes because you'll want the regen early on. They can become elite later... but should switch back before you import to 7 (not gold) because else you will find that your game is extremely tough and slow.

You can play without class changing or minimal class changing.

If you want to join the Mondblut Extreme club you will change everyone into everything at one point so everyone learns all the skills, most notably Kirijutsu and Ninjutsu. This makes Extreme mode a lot easier. It's up to you.



I ended up with all elite classes from 6 in 7(without class change abuse; I was young and naive then).

... don't do that. Your beginning will be brutal. Do you like the thought of parking near the healing fountains and running back to them constantly?

Hope that helps, sorry I was cranky; have a brofist.

 

[kmonster]

All wizardries except part 4 are easy, just grind enough until you're high enough level, expert difficulty is even easier on the long run since you meet more monsters and get more XP. DM requires less time but more skill.

Neither in the party recommendations in the manuals nor in the cluebooks of W6+7 the sample parties include class switching (and solutions in classic game magazines had parties without class switching too, in a 14 page solution in a games magazine the party played was fighter, priest, thief, alchemist, mage, mage for example), so it's safe to assume that the games aren't designed around career changes, just like in the previous wizardries it was there to allow choosing classes you are unable to roll.

The reason why Jasede had a problem at the beginning of W7 with his elite class party is that starting W7 with imported characters is balanced very badly, other classes would have the same problem.

Starting the characters as basic spellcasters and switching them to elite classes will make the game easier because of the extra spell picks and skill raises you get. The miss chance is unimportant.
Playing switched mixes instead of pure classes is definitely easier, but if it's better for you I don't know.

 

[octavius]

All wizardries except part 4 are easy, just grind enough until you're high enough level, expert difficulty is even easier on the long run since you meet more monsters and get more XP. DM requires less time but more skill.

Hmm...how can the early wizardries be easy? Isn't it pure luck wether you meet enemies you can defeat or not early in the games? How can you grind up to a "safe" level when every enemy you meet can potentially defeat you no matter how skilled you are as a player?

Funnily enough I never compared Wizardry 6 to Dungeon Master first time I played Wiz 6, but now I see the similarities in the dungeon graphics, the missiles and spells flying through the air and the puffs of smoke when you kill an enemy.
Too bad Wiz 6 still used EGA graphics when the norm had become VGA. The animations compensate a bit, though.

But one thing that annoys me is that there is no mana bar, even though there is room for it beside the health and stamina bars.

Anyway, after rolling 6 (3 of each sex) characters from each race and picking the best ones I ended up with this party:

Human Male Ranger
Dwarf Female Priest -> Valkyrie
Felpurr Female Alchemist
Dracon Male Mage
Rawulf Male Bard
Gnome Male Thief

They have 14-18 bonus points.

Thieves are supposed to be crap, but I want max skulduggery in the beginning of the game. Hopefully he'll make a good Monk eventually.

The Ranger is the designated meat shield in a rather "light" party. They get more HPs than regular fighters and fighters are supposed to take double damage from most weapons and monsters and thus seemed a bad choice.

I didn't roll any good Fairie characters, but OTOH the Draco is a nice little breather early in the game.

 

[Jasede]

It's your choice but I can't praise Faerie mages highly enough, especially in 8. I think your early game will be nightmarish because you have nobody who can soak damage well. I never heard of Fighters taking double damage.

And I can answer part of your question: in Wizardry 1 you can safely grind to any level you like on level 1 by killing Murphy's Ghost over and over again. There's no risk involved. In 6 the game becomes a lot easier too if you grind in the crypt.

Still... I don't agree with the guy. They're not easier just because you can trivialize them by leveling up a lot. I mean, that's true for most games! (I suppose they could have made XP scale, to alleviate this, though.)

Then again, I suppose a lot of us did get through 1 and 6 as children, so they can't be that hard either.

 

[kmonster]

Hmm...how can the early wizardries be easy? Isn't it pure luck wether you meet enemies you can defeat or not early in the games?

It seems we have a different understanding about what's easy or difficult. For you "difficult = requires luck", for me "difficult = requires skill".

Anyway, after rolling 6 (3 of each sex) characters from each race and picking the best ones I ended up with this party:

Human Male Ranger
Dwarf Female Priest -> Valkyrie
Felpurr Female Alchemist
Dracon Male Mage
Rawulf Male Bard
Gnome Male Thief

They have 14-18 bonus points.

Thieves are supposed to be crap, but I want max skulduggery in the beginning of the game. Hopefully he'll make a good Monk eventually.

The Ranger is the designated meat shield in a rather "light" party. They get more HPs than regular fighters and fighters are supposed to take double damage from most weapons and monsters and thus seemed a bad choice.

I didn't roll any good Fairie characters, but OTOH the Draco is a nice little breather early in the game.

Your party will do, even without class switching.

I'd pump every skill point the thief gets into skullduggery (to reach 70-100) before switching to monk, afterwards you'll need all the skill points you can get for theosophy (either stop at 54 for level 4 spells or go up all the way to 98-100) and later for kirijitsu. Hide him often as you can in combat to pump up ninjitsu so you start with good AC after switching to monk.

Thieves aren't too bad in W6 since they level much faster than the other classes, they are only crap in W7 since all classes level at almost the same speed there.

 

[Wyrmlord]

I typically like 2 Valkyrie, just because having 2 people that can use Silence is damn handy. That just my play style.

It's pretty difficult to roll a Valkyrie. Don't they have some of the most demanding statistic requirements in Wizardry 6? Or perhaps the most demanding?

 

[Jasede]

I don't remember them being particularly demanding, but I don't have the bonus table on hand right now. They were just average from what I remember.
The manual or guide from the archives CD has a table that shows which class/race combo needs how many points.

 

[kmonster]

Valkyrie is the easiest to roll and fastest leveling elite class. Dwarves only need 9 points.

 

[octavius]

The Lords are most difficult to roll, needing 77 stat points while Valkyries need 61.

 

[Crooked Bee]

in Wizardry 1 you can safely grind to any level you like on level 1 by killing Murphy's Ghost over and over again.

Um... not really? Defeating a medium-sized group of Murphy's Ghosts earns you ~2000-2500 exp. To get to level 13 -- the level at which your Mage can first cast TILTOWAIT and your Priest MALIKTO -- you need around 1 MILLION (!) exp in total. Realistically, no one (in their right mind) should be able to grind on Murphy's Ghosts past level 7 or 8 at most; that's just too inefficient (and boring -- you might as well not play the game at all). I assume an average gamer will only grind to level 3 or 4 and then proceed to explore the floors below.

And that's only a part of it. Another part is that unless you're ridiculously overleveled and overequipped, you're never "safe" in Wizardry. Ninjas can instakill you, Vampires and the like can level drain you, Greater Demons will spam LAHALITO at you, etc. Even at lvl 13, encountering a group of >3 Dragon Zombies or Poison Giants and being surprised by them means that at least HALF of your party are going to end up dead during the first turn before you can do anything.

Sure, you may get lucky and run straight to Werdna without running into any of the tougher encounters along the way, but the chances of that happening are pretty slim and you'll have way more fun just doing it the proper way.

 

[eric__s]

Yeah, valkyries are great starting classes because they're basically the same as lords but they level up faster, have the same abilities and I think have a chance to just not die when their HP goes below 0. Is there any actual benefit to using a lord over a valkyrie? I can't really remember. I know there are in Wizardry 8 but not in 6 or 7.

Your party is pretty good but I probably would have switched the thief out for something else, since bards also function as thieves. You're kind of lacking on fighting ability but your mage can probably transition to samurai pretty well later on.

 

[kmonster]

In W6 there's no reason to play a lord, valkyries don't have to waste so many points for charisma and level much faster, easily compensating the hit point less they get per level. In W7 lords are superior since all classes level effectively at the same speed.