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Another Mask of the Betrayer thread!

Deleted member 7219

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Admiral jimbob said:
I just finished it.
Great experience, far better than the original campaign... and, bar Act 1, I did enjoy that as well. Might not replay it for a while, but I'll certainly be redoing MotB, possibly with a fighter-type.

Felt a bit copped out by the ending, though, with the

*spoiler etc*





"Hi I have spent half the game so far intending to get here to tear down your Wall"
"LOL no u cant do dat"
"Mr Kelemvor tear down this wall"
"no"
"oh ok"

Thing.

Nah, I had my inklings it wouldn't be as obvious as tearing down the wall and everyone lives happily ever after.

It was evident from the start it was a personal story, not a 'save the world' deal, and like Planescape Torment I knew the ending must be reflective of the personal story and not some grand quest.

Tearing down the wall of the faithless would be HUGE, much bigger than becoming Bhaal in BG2, the implications would be that people would be free to not worship a God, and in the Forgotten Realms that is a big big deal. I doubt WotC would ever allow Obsidian to do something like that. I knew the outcome would be the resolution of the spirit eater scenario and nothing else.
 
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Oh, I know that, I didn't really expect to be able to do it and it was obviously a personal story (and I'm glad for that)... but we were built up to expect something other than wandering about a city occasionally bumping into three eccentric and rather disinterested personalities before getting a telling off by Kelemvor.
 

Starwars

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I agree with the good admiral there. It's probably my biggest beef with the otherwise excellently told story. It feels as if the game is building up to it, only to put a hand in your face once you get there.

I do think it's to big for our characters to accomplish, but it's more a matter of the storytelling. Perhaps a different ending where you attempt this feat and fail horribly could've been implemented somehow, or the discussion with Mr K could've been more elaborate and possibly show off the fact that there is no way in hell you could've challenged him in his own realm. He does tell you this, but after that build-up I think more was needed.
 
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I'd have been quite satisfied if I'd at least been allowed to argue with him for a while... I feel my character gave up far more easily than he should have. I was declared a master orator at my trial in Neverwinter, I should have been able to pull out an ad hominem attack or scathing commentary on his stupid-looking mask at least.
 

Keldorn

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Volourn said:
"Not only has it been done, but it's also bloody annoying to have a henchman attack you or leave because you take his axe or disagree with him. What the hell man?! You're a soldier for Christ sake's, you sleep on the cold ground, get more puncture wounds then a needle doll and kill all sorts of shit and then you wanna cry because I'm mean to you?"

Wrong. they're adventurers; not soldiers (mostly). They shouldn't have to take shit from a punk like the PC. R00fles!

Why the hell should a paladin continue to work with scumbag necromancer who wants to slaughter children so he can raise them as zombie babies?

It's illogical.


R00fles1


I agree. Some folks want their henchmen to be be brainless & spineless. Why ? To make the character aspects of the game simpler, easier and more predictable, like an FPS clickfest.

I say give the NPC's & Henchmen some teeth, depth, willpower, autonomy and unpredictablility. By doing this, you'll provide more variation, challenge and dynamic contrast.

(btw, could you remind my beerfriday mind the titles which had those PC-attacking party members ? I know it's inexcusable, but I'm drawing blanks)
 

Azarkon

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I think the whole situation with Kelemvor could've been done a lot better with a simple addendum at the end of the exchange where you tell Kelemvor that this is not over and receive an ending based on that (and then maybe they can even work in the Kaelyn romance people on the Bio boards seem to want).

Still, if we're not just talking about pleasing the fans, there is a thematic angle to be gleaned here - that the universe does not operate according to justice, that just because you're right, doesn't mean you'll win, and that in the end, forcing the issue will only lead to tragedy, as it does for Kaelyn (if you don't kill Rammaq). A very BIS/Obsidian-esque touch, if I may say so myself.
 

Deleted member 7219

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I'm replaying the game now as an 'evil' character. I plan to piss my companions off to see how they will react. Is this worth doing? Will it change the ending sequence?
 

bozia2012

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Keldorn said:
(btw, could you remind my beerfriday mind the titles which had those PC-attacking party members ? I know it's inexcusable, but I'm drawing blanks)

PS:T is the first one that should come to mind.
 

roshan

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And also FO2 - try attacking Vics daughter, or creating trouble in Klamath or Broken Hills. Im not sure whether Lenny turns on you for killing people in Gecko, but I assume that it would be the result.

I think NPCs in BG1 could turn on you as well. I know that the good NPCs leave if youre evil, and vice versa, but I also have vague memories of certain ones turning on you - I think some like Ajantis/Minsc may very well turn on (attack) evil characters. Some NPCs, like Minsc, leave the party if you ignore their quests for too long.
 

Jora

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And Dungeons and Dragons: The Temple of Elemental Evil - A Classic Greyhawk Adventure.
 

Helton

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roshan said:
And also FO2 - try attacking Vics daughter, or creating trouble in Klamath or Broken Hills. Im not sure whether Lenny turns on you for killing people in Gecko, but I assume that it would be the result.

I think NPCs in BG1 could turn on you as well. I know that the good NPCs leave if youre evil, and vice versa, but I also have vague memories of certain ones turning on you - I think some like Ajantis/Minsc may very well turn on (attack) evil characters. Some NPCs, like Minsc, leave the party if you ignore their quests for too long.

Sulik also attacks if you become a Slaver or, I think, a Child Killer.

But not if you don't give him enough stimpacks.
 

Callaxes

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acording to Wiki, Wasteland was the first computer RPG to add NPCs that would attack you if you treated them badly or refused to give up equipment.
 

roshan

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Vault Dweller said:
micmu said:
roshan said:
MOTB has choices - real ones, but no consequences.
Incorrect (about no consequences). It even has few ass-biting ones.
True. A shitload of choices and quite a few consequences. I'm replaying with a different character now and there are a lot of things that you can do differently.

Its just that some of the choices seemed really shallow. For example, I killed the coven. But all those waiting to see them were still standing in line, I couldnt even tell them that the coven was dead. Even many of those outside continued to wait there. I believe that there was even a loading screen message or something of the sort informing my character that he would be hated by hags - but when I encountered the one in the Ashenwood, there was no reaction.

Another was the camp in the Ashenwood. I went back to the two telthor witches after having killed the people at the camp, but did not get any new dialogue options or replies.

Take the beginning of the game, whether you desecrate Okkus grandfather or not has no effect on whether or not you have to fight him at the end of the cave.

There are obviously some choices with consequences, such as, for example whether to spare or devour Okku. But MOTB is a game of such limited scope that I dont think it is unjustified to expect more from it. With such few NPCs, the game should have been much more reactive to your actions.
 

Micmu

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roshan said:
Its just that some of the choices seemed really shallow. For example, I killed the coven. But all those waiting to see them were still standing in line, I couldnt even tell them that the coven was dead.
The coven in Sunken City?
I killed the sleeping hags, too, and everyone attacked me on sight - waves of guards, then lich - then all those in the line (except animal spirits because I had Okku with me).
Even the merchant and genie who gave me the quest to destroy the earth elemental. (Btw. which I failed to destory - I decided to not let the place cave in and took more effort and repaired all other elemental "power stations" instead).
 

Keldorn

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Callaxes said:
acording to Wiki, Wasteland was the first computer RPG to add NPCs that would attack you if you treated them badly or refused to give up equipment.

Thanks for that ! this place is a fuckin' FACTORY of learned CRPG fans.. hopefully by my 1000th post, I'll absorb some of the wisdom.

Having one's cherished, often robotic, hired NPC's become malicious *conditionally*, is something I'm searching for. I think it was my NWN1 & mods overdose which caused this hunger. I'm also thinking of Yoshimo's pre-scripted, plot-based linear antagonism from BG2 as what I'm NOT looking for, yet it's all that I can seem to recall. I'm gonna have to do an RPG timewarp and replay some classics, and try Wasteland for the 1st time. (I have Wasteland as an ornamental & untouched game in my dos-box library)

Potentially malicious henchmen...OUCH !

YEEEEE-HAAAAAA !!!


RAWka-SHAWka.
 

Zomg

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Finished. I really enjoyed it. I have a lot of specific criticisms but the total effect is great.
 

Keldorn

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Helton said:
Alright, you're not stupid. Just masochistic and insane.

Are you a sedated & conformist Pharma-Zombie or somethin' ?


GROOfles.
 

Shannow

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This post is especially for Volly who doesn't like the codex glossing over MotB.
I actually wanted to wait until I had finished the game before posting something like this but I'm not in the mood to do anything else right now. I'll try to mark all spoilers, seeing how inconsiderate many posters here have been.

DISCLAIMER: This is all IMHO. I tend to notice more things that I dislike than things that I like. Don't be fooled by this, I still liked MoTB quite well. You won't find much meantioning of story. If I want a good story I'll read a book.

MotB pros and cons:

Cons:
1. It is "another" D&D title. I'd really like somthing else for a change.
2. It uses the D&D rule-system. While 3.5 edition is a vast improvement over 2nd ed I still dislike many parts of those rules.
3. It is D&D but not turn based thus eliminating all the fun I can have with D&D.
4. The influence system is even shittier than before. Repeatedly saving their lives doesn't improve your companions disposition towards you but some dialogue options do. It is not as bad as NWN2OC or the KotORs but it is still your companions who influence you and not the other way around. (SPOILAR: Especially crappy are the boni you get from your companions when they like you enough.)
5. Loading screens, loading screens, loading screens, loading ... you get the gist.
6. Spoilar: The spirit meter. While I like the idea, the implemation is flawed on many levels: Suppressing because you don't want to be ruled by some affliction that will ultimately kill you is neither good nor lawful. Continually being spammed with GL points is not good. I even had the option to say why i suppress, which gave me one point to chaotic :roll: Roshan meantioned what would have improved the spirit meter. A bigger decrease for resting/travelling, no alignement changes outside of dialogue. Suppressing should leave you weaker. So by suppressing you'd get some (small) penalties. As it is I've only reached the first stage of hunger once by choosing what should have been the more difficult path. Restful dead is a free devour spirit for goody two shoes, doesn't make sense as an ability gained by the curse and should be completely removed.
7. The game engine is crap. I have a e6600 + 8800 gts. I'd expect an engine that is older than my system to run smoothely with everything maxed out. As it is I don't have everything maxed out and still the game tends to behave sluggish.
8. Scripting: If a modder can come up with good scripts why can't obsidian? Their companion scripts aren't even on par with the last NWN add-on. This really shows where the priorities lie.
9. The camera in close-up dialogue is crap. I don't know if it is because I play a dwarf but the angle is always wrong and there is always at least one companion standing in the way.
10. The game is still far too easy. The starting dungeon had me fooled for a while but as soon as the fat loot started flowing in + far too powerful crafting it has become a cakewalk. Since companions cannot die you don't have to care for them. Fully buffed I haven't met anything that could have taken down one of my companions, much less me. Also a certain animal cave that has been meantioned around here as being difficult was in fact a stroll in the park. Just because something has 600 hit points doesn't make it hard to beat. Spoiler: I fought the second round in the berserker lodge unbuffed. Sergej was the only one even able to hit me. And while that was a hit for 80 hit points I beat him black and blue before he could hit a second time.
11. I dislike the crafting system. It should be like in ToEE.
12. I dislike the spell effects. They slow down my system (which they shouldn't) and clutter the screen.
13. (Spoiler) The Academy: I don't mind puzzles but the whole soul reading device thingy was dumb. Far too many clicks were involved to read those souls. They simply should have given the pc the ability to gain information from them. Also having three separate areas for the academy is stupid design. The puzzles weren't so easily solved that you only had to visit one area once or twice. A lot of backtracking over load screens is bad, mmmkay.
14. Spoilar: "Kelemvor is the god of the dead. Before him came Cyric and Myrkul."
Two dialogue options later:
[Lore] Kelemvor? You mean the god of the dead, right? (Look at me, I passed my lore check. Amn't I inteligeny???)
Things like that lore check happened far too often. (Especially in tha context.) Skill checks are nice, but not when something like that happens. I also knew who the founder would be, what my curse had to do with the betrayer and who my "brother" was. Still, when I met the founder, I had to ask everything again. If I had to rate my intelligence on a D&D scale it'd be somewhere around 12-13. My pc has 17. I don't like feeling more intelligent than my pc. Same goes for that Ashenwood fort. I knew were it was going and I couldn't change the course.
15. Fighting gnolls, animals or students that have been bumped up to epic levels is stupid. I'd rather have less fights. But those should be with enemies that make sense to pose a challenge.
16. Too many autosaves, especially in the plane of shadows. I load a quicksave and the first thing that happens is an autosave. wtf?
17. Coming out of certain conversation unbuffed for no apparent reason.
18. Spoiler: Arriving at Academy unbuffed. I can pass hundrets of portals without that having any consequences on my buffs (perma haste ftw ;) ) but as soon as I go to Thay everything is gone

Pros:
1. I really like the idea of the spirit meter. It gives a sense of urgency and a new dimension to the game.
2. Less companions, no companion roster. Now just implement death and exp gain separate from your pc's.
3. I really liked the dream puzzles.
4. One-From-Many sounds fun, although I didn't get him (it, them?).
5. Companions are less cliché. I didn't mind Khelgar but Bishop and Quara were so extreme that it made them very one-dimensional and unbelievable for me.
6. In the very beginning there is some interesting combat.
7. I guess a second playthrough with some different choices would have some different consequences *g*
8. They at least cut some of the sensless multiple dialogue options that lead to the same result anyway.


There Volly, I hope that isn't too glossed over for you anymore.

I'm sure I forgat some things but what the heck... :roll:

EDIT: New point to 10. and added 17. and 18.
 

Zomg

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SPOILERS BELOW, BRAH:



I think your cons are all valid, although you did say that the influence system was, "shittier than before" and then said the KotORs and the NWN2 OC were worse... which I think constitutes "before". I did notice a lot of redundancy where the PC is told the same concept multiple times, but on the other hand I complained when KotOR2 had almost zero story redundancy and you could easily miss things without foreknowledge.

I would add that the inventory system blows horribly, and is functionally inferior to stuff from the early '90s, and in turn looting things is a huge pain. There's still a large dollop of trash combat, too, although the spirit meter at least gives those fights a resource-management dimension. The combat is also a big mess in general just because the power levels are so ridiculous. I have no idea how they could even begin to balance some of those fights.

I've read other people's reactions to the wall of the faithless stuff, and I realize I serendipitously took the most satisfying version of the "good guy" path, so I can't comment on how the wall-destroyer cockblock feels. The endgame has a sustained "we wrote checks our game engine can't cash" theme where you fight off an epic demon invasion of three fat demons and a Balor and other such stuff, but I was so captured by the game at that point I didn't think about it until afterwards.

I still want to see Avellone or someone explain what they're trying to do with influence. In KotOR2 they hid huge amounts of plot behind a gameplay barrier of finding ways to flatter followers, more or less. In the NWN2 OC they had the influence throwdown fight with the same influence-hunting gameplay, in MotB they ladle out large permanent bonuses to your stats for the same influence grubbing. Why do they want to feature influence grubbing? I really want to know what the philosophy is.

I like the style of the NPC followers, but... they were a bit "faint". NWN2 OC characters were unfunny cartoons, but at least the volume of a cartoon is high enough that you can hear the character through the restrictions of an engine and content where everyone stands stock still during dialogues, swaying slightly, with imperceptible facial expressions and a very few shitty gestures taken from the MMORPG-style NWN emotes. In PS:T they got serious "acting" from the NPCs through prose and snippet VA. In Fallout there were fairly emotive talking heads to go with the voice acting, and in VtM:B you had very dynamic acting for a video game, with significant facial expressions, lots of gestures and mostly gold-standard voice acting. Here, the bandwidth they had to pass NPC characterization through was pretty low.

The voice direction and composition in MotB is obviously immensely better than the OC (that bear druid was so excruciatingly bad that they must wake up in the middle of the night thinking about it), but there are still a lot of mis-emphasized lines, too.

Anyway, I can't formulate much positive criticism on one playthrough, and I'm not gonna finish another one for a while. But, I did have that pleasurable sense of fugue going through most of the game, which I've only ever gotten from this kind of RPG, and no amount of my reductionist criticism is going to seriously degrade my total judgement.
 
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aweigh

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Everyone waiting in line for the hags turns hostile once you kill them.
 

Vault Dweller

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roshan said:
Its just that some of the choices seemed really shallow. For example, I killed the coven. But all those waiting to see them were still standing in line, I couldnt even tell them that the coven was dead.
I don't think that this example makes killing the coven a shallow choice. It's like complaining that after killing Gizmo in Fallout his casino isn't taken over by someone else. While such details would have been nice, they are nothing but icing on top of a big fucking cake.

Another was the camp in the Ashenwood. I went back to the two telthor witches after having killed the people at the camp, but did not get any new dialogue options or replies.
You can't get new dialogues with everyone after each quest or choice. No game can do that, so let's criticize MotB for the real faults, not the imaginary ones.

Take the beginning of the game, whether you desecrate Okkus grandfather or not has no effect on whether or not you have to fight him at the end of the cave.
It was clearly explained why Okku is after you and it's not because you desecrated hs barrow.
 

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