Zelda Series

[Nutmeg]

You're blowing it out of porpotion

I'm not. I remember once measuring the amount of time the game accepts input from the player in a serious run vs. the amount of time it does not.

In this video, the player begins the game at 00:25. Apologies for the disgusting thumbnail, I just chose the first NMG speed run that showed up when I searched.



The game first starts accepting inputs at 03:40. 20 seconds later, the game stops accepting inputs again for another 2 minutes and 20 seconds, starting again at 06:20,

i.e. the game only accepted inputs for 20 seconds in its initial 355 seconds of game time i.e. 5.6% of the time.

Let's look at the first 355 seconds of Zelda 3 instead.



The player starts the game at 00:15. The game starts to accept inputs from the player at 00:40 i.e. after 25 seconds. The next 330 seconds of game time have

• one modal dialogue which beginning at 01:11 in the video, interrupting the game for 6 seconds, until 01:17
• a sequence of three modal dialogues we will group together from 03:08 to 3:21, interrupting the game for 19 seconds
• a 1 second interruption after a screen transition at 04:25
• a 2 second interruption from 04:38 to 04:42
• a half second interruption at 05:20, and again at 06:01

And that's it. So, Zelda 3 accepts inputs for 301 seconds in its first 355 seconds or 85% of the time.

The difference in pacing is immense.

Let's calculate another way. How long does it take for either game to show its first enemy? The first enemy appears at 01:22 in the Zelda 3 video. So, after 67 seconds.

In Majora's Mask, the first enemy appears around the 25 minute (!) mark, where my poorly chosen video shows it in a PIP as the main picture is used for some kind of advertising. Bleugh.

To summarize:

• In the first ~6 minutes of game time, Zelda 3 accepts inputs from the player ~85% of the time, Majora's Mask accepts inputs from the player 5% of the time
• Zelda 3 shows its first enemy to the player after 67 seconds, Majora's Mask shows its first enemy to the player after 1500 seconds.

Even after the opening stages of the game, if we calculate enemy density, and proportion of time the games accept inputs to the time they don't, we get similar disparity. I leave it as an exercise to the reader to do so.

There is no comparison between the pacing in Zelda 3 and Majora's Mask. Zelda 3 is still a brisk game, and even though the seeds of decline were present in Zelda 3, they were far from bearing fruit.

 

[<3sRichardSimmons]

Those comparisons are indisputably true, but they also strike me as quite cherry-picked; the first couple hours of MM are widely considered to be far and away the worst part of the game, while LttP is basically the gold-standard for intros.

There is no doubt that the series underwent a fundamental and extreme gameplay shift from LttP/LA to OoT though, to the point that I think it's fair to effectively consider the 2D and 3D titles different (sub?)genres (and now BotW and TotK have arguably led to another equally significant core break in the design philosophy). And for that reason I don't really have any interest in debating someone who dislikes one or the other. I mean, there are plenty of genres of gameplay that I just fundamentally don't enjoy, and I really seriously doubt I'm going to be reasoned out of that basic dislike.


For my part I enjoy both the 2D and 3D titles (although I would say I have a very slight preference towards the 2D ones) quite a bit, but it's also clear that the 3D titles make Nintendo a lot more money so if you don't enjoy that side of the franchise then the franchise is probably no longer for you.

 

[Nutmeg]

I think the N64 Zeldas have great puzzles and dungeons. I liked the puzzle shrines in BotW too. More interesting on a puzzle for puzzle basis than in the Tezuka games.

On the other hand, it's been too long since I last played Twilight Princess and Wind Waker (both on release), but I remember being underwhelmed by both at the time.

The problem with the 3D Zeldas is that they are all very padded out in different ways (I haven't played Skyward Sword or TotK and am assuming they didn't buck the trend) making them a chore and exercise in patience to replay, in addition to all the other problems inherited from the 2D games.

Still good for what they are.

 

[Falksi]

You're blowing it out of porpotion

I'm not. I remember once measuring the amount of time the game accepts input from the player in a serious run vs. the amount of time it does not.

In this video, the player begins the game at 00:25. Apologies for the disgusting thumbnail, I just chose the first NMG speed run that showed up when I searched.



The game first starts accepting inputs at 03:40. 20 seconds later, the game stops accepting inputs again for another 2 minutes and 20 seconds, starting again at 06:20,

i.e. the game only accepted inputs for 20 seconds in its initial 355 seconds of game time i.e. 5.6% of the time.

Let's look at the first 355 seconds of Zelda 3 instead.



The player starts the game at 00:15. The game starts to accept inputs from the player at 00:40 i.e. after 25 seconds. The next 330 seconds of game time have

• one modal dialogue which beginning at 01:11 in the video, interrupting the game for 6 seconds, until 01:17
• a sequence of three modal dialogues we will group together from 03:08 to 3:21, interrupting the game for 19 seconds
• a 1 second interruption after a screen transition at 04:25
• a 2 second interruption from 04:38 to 04:42
• a half second interruption at 05:20, and again at 06:01

And that's it. So, Zelda 3 accepts inputs for 301 seconds in its first 355 seconds or 85% of the time.

The difference in pacing is immense.

Let's calculate another way. How long does it take for either game to show its first enemy? The first enemy appears at 01:22 in the Zelda 3 video. So, after 67 seconds.

In Majora's Mask, the first enemy appears around the 25 minute (!) mark, where my poorly chosen video shows it in a PIP as the main picture is used for some kind of advertising. Bleugh.

To summarize:

• In the first ~6 minutes of game time, Zelda 3 accepts inputs from the player ~85% of the time, Majora's Mask accepts inputs from the player 5% of the time
• Zelda 3 shows its first enemy to the player after 67 seconds, Majora's Mask shows its first enemy to the player after 1500 seconds.

Even after the opening stages of the game, if we calculate enemy density, and proportion of time the games accept inputs to the time they don't, we get similar disparity. I leave it as an exercise to the reader to do so.

There is no comparison between the pacing in Zelda 3 and Majora's Mask. Zelda 3 is still a brisk game, and even though the seeds of decline were present in Zelda 3, they were far from bearing fruit.

This is a quality analogy, and highlights one of the main reasons I just can't get on with a lot of the 3D games, especially the N64 ones.

 

[DJOGamer PT]

i.e. the game only accepted inputs for 20 seconds in its initial 355 seconds of game time i.e. 5.6% of the time.
...
And that's it. So, Zelda 3 accepts inputs for 301 seconds in its first 355 seconds or 85% of the time.

The difference in pacing is immense.

Whatever
Regardless of that, you're still blowing it out of porpotion as again you're failling to account for the following facts :

• Majora's Mask is a considerably longer game than A Link to the Past
• Majora's Mask is a more ambitious and expansive game in content, narrative and atmosphere, as such requires a more detailed set-up

With these qualities in perspective, MM longer opening compared to ALttP is in proportion not an issue
And finally it's an essential part of the game as it gives context to the entire adventure

There is no doubt that the series underwent a fundamental and extreme gameplay shift from LttP/LA to OoT though,

No
OoT is in fundamentally a 3D "translation" of ALttP
The design philosophy of these 2 games is equal - they shared devs, ALttP devolpment shows they were already playing with ideas that would be fully realised in OoT, the structure of OoT is ALttP structure to a tee and finally OoT story is a loose retelling of the backstory given for Ganon in ALttP manual

Still good for what they are.

Majora's Mask is bar none still the best Zelda game and a masterpiece of action-adventure games

 

[Frank Capicoli]

Majora's Mask is my favorite N64 game let alone 3d Zelda game.

Link's awakening was my first but I still favor aLttp over it. Recently tried to go through Oracle of Seasons again but it was probably better off left with nostalgic thoughts of the past honestly.

 

[Nutmeg]

Recently tried to go through Oracle of Seasons again but it was probably better off left with nostalgic thoughts of the past honestly.

Why?

 

[Frank Capicoli]

Well it's been a few years since I last bothered but the world progression and side/trade quests generally felt weaker than aLttp. I'm not saying it's an awful game I just had fonder memories before replaying it.

 

[Drakortha]

BOTW is terrible shit and I regretted pre-ordering a Switch to play it on launch night. Thankfully I was able to sell the game with the console 2nd hand pretty close to retail price.

They turned an awesome old school formula into another shitty open world crafting game where you open your inventory 50 times during a boss fight to chug health items. It was fucking Skyrimized. I'm never giving Nintendo my money ever again for pulling that shit.

 

[Nutmeg]

Well it's been a few years since I last bothered but the world progression and side/trade quests generally felt weaker than aLttp. I'm not saying it's an awful game I just had fonder memories before replaying it.

You might be misremembering Zelda 3 as well then. It's not exactly a side quest rich game. There's the tempered sword (which is also tied to an extra bottle) and the magic meter. Neither of these are trading quests per se. Then there's a few single visit secrets like the other two bottles and the arrow and bomb upgrade fairy.

In terms of mandatory NPC interaction sequences the longest I recall right now is getting the ocarina and bird, which isn't the most elaborate thing in the world.

Trading quests really enter the series with Zelda 4.

 

[Talby]

I loved OoT as a kid, and for me it's a toss up between that and LttP as to which is the best Zelda game. MM I just could never get into for whatever reason. The shift in setting is cool but I never liked the timing aspect and repeating things over and over to get a "perfect run." I don't really like any of the Zelda games that came after, either. Never beat WW, TP or SS. The less said about BotW and onwards the better.

 

[Yuber]

I am waiting more than 10(!) years for a traditional Zelda again... I might die before I get the chance to play another one if they ever go back.
I hate Open World Zelda.
inb4 Zelda 1 was Open World too !!!

 

[Jack Of Owls]

Only ever finished one Zelda game - A Link to the Past on my Super Nintendo way back then. It was actually excellent so I'm surprised I wasn't susceptible to being a fantard of the series. The only other thought I can offer on the franchise is that the sequel to BotW (which was surprisingly decent but one of those open world games that whittles down your will to continue past the mid-way point due to its length, like Skyrim) runs like ass on Switch emulators.

 

[Great Deceiver]

Only ever finished one Zelda game - A Link to the Past on my Super Nintendo way back then. It was actually excellent so I'm surprised I wasn't susceptible to being a fantard of the series. The only other thought I can offer on the franchise is that the sequel to BotW (which was surprisingly decent but one of those open world games that whittles down your will to continue past the mid-way point due to its length, like Skyrim) runs like ass on Switch emulators.

You could run TotK on Yuzu at a steady 120fps pretty easily with a midrange card before it got nuked, not sure what the situation is now.

 

[Jack Of Owls]

Only ever finished one Zelda game - A Link to the Past on my Super Nintendo way back then. It was actually excellent so I'm surprised I wasn't susceptible to being a fantard of the series. The only other thought I can offer on the franchise is that the sequel to BotW (which was surprisingly decent but one of those open world games that whittles down your will to continue past the mid-way point due to its length, like Skyrim) runs like ass on Switch emulators.

You could run TotK on Yuzu at a steady 120fps pretty easily with a midrange card before it got nuked, not sure what the situation is now.

Very surprised to hear this. Just tested it yesterday on the last official build of Yuzu and it was a microstutter wonderland (it does show as 60FPS using the patch though and never dips). Of course there could be a thousand variables as to why this is so - everything from nvidia's latest geforce drivers to this particular build of YuZu to not finding the right settings - but I considered it unplayable, especially compared to how smoothly BotW ran on Cemu years ago. For comparison, Xenoblade Chronicles DE runs decently on Switch emulators in my setup (i9, RTX 3070).

 

[Nutmeg]

microstutter

Usually a shader caching thing.

 

[Falksi]

BOTW is terrible shit and I regretted pre-ordering a Switch to play it on launch night. Thankfully I was able to sell the game with the console 2nd hand pretty close to retail price.

They turned an awesome old school formula into another shitty open world crafting game where you open your inventory 50 times during a boss fight to chug health items. It was fucking Skyrimized. I'm never giving Nintendo my money ever again for pulling that shit.

The problem with Nintendo's fanbase is that they are complete simp faggots, who will devour any turd which their overlords churn forth if it contains their branding.

They think they are helping their cause with this by supporting their overlords, when in reality their lack of critical thinking and constructive criticism just means Nintendo can happily use their big brands to experiment with ideas, knowing that whether it turns out good or bad sales will be in the bag anyway.

I played through around 30 hours of TOTK the other week, and fuck me how that got a 10/10 from IGN and all the Nintendo simps I will never know. They took the pretty mid, 6 or at best 7/10 BOTW and just recycled a ton of it's areas and added a shit load of tedious mechanics into the mix, which get old fast. It's barely worth a 5/10.

Their fanbase is an utter blight on gaming, and in my opinion largely responsible for the dumbing down of everything since the 90's.

 

[Jack Of Owls]

microstutter

Usually a shader caching thing.

I switched to Ryujinx and it runs far better on my system than on Yuzu. I only average about 50 FPS but no horrible and constant microstuttering, just the occasional shader caching jitter. I'm finding Ryujinx to be the optimum choice for a number of switch titles I've tested recently ie SMT V and Xenoblade Chronicles DE. Red Dead Redemption plays silky smooth on Ryujinx and it has the superior draw distance over the old Xbox and PS3 versions (which had the worst pop-in I ever saw in a game). Switch emulation, particularly Ryujinx, is the definitive way to play these old games, imo.

 

[Reality]

I usually compare Zelda games based on how long the puzzles feel like puzzles as compared to glorified keys.

My favorite is Links Awakening.

The Oracle games have very interesting puzzles within the dungeons but both have the most extreme backtracking of 2D Zelda - things like a mandatory goron trade quest, subrosia, and sometimes even the (spinner room) dungeon elements.

Link to the Past has a fun to explore overworld but it's shocking how little you actually use items within the dungeons (there are more itemless puzzles at least)

My memories of Minish Cap are sketchy. I vaguely remember thinking I was cutting corners I wasn't supposed to because some of your powers give you too much physics.

Zelda 1 holds up but I played it with the mindset of being a coin op game. It's navigational challenge and real incentive to do things out of order are nice but only a secondary appeal to me.

 

[I eat frozen vegetables]

If you want to play the classics, the best way to do so are from fans. Zelda Classic, Zelda 2 Enhanced PC remake, the decompilation of Link to the Past, the remake of Link's Awakening DX (first thing I did was steal the shovel and the bow as usual, fucking scamming shopkeep), and the decompilation of Ocarina of Time. Soon, we will have the decompilation of Majora's Mask. Of course, if you want to play the CD-i games, get the remake by the guy who later made Arzette.

 

[Beans00]

If I had to rank them, including the sytems I played them

1. ALTTP(snes)
2. twilight princess (gamecube)
3. zelda 1 (nes)
4. majoras mask (n64)
5. zelda 2 (nes)
6. ocarina (n64)
7. wind waker (gamecube)
8. twilight princess (wii)

Never played any of the handheld games, never played anything after TP. Overall I liked them but not on the same level as mario or metroid.

 

[I eat frozen vegetables]

If I had to rank them, including the sytems I played them

1. ALTTP(snes)
2. twilight princess (gamecube)
3. zelda 1 (nes)
4. majoras mask (n64)
5. zelda 2 (nes)
6. ocarina (n64)
7. wind waker (gamecube)
8. twilight princess (wii)

Never played any of the handheld games, never played anything after TP. Overall I liked them but not on the same level as mario or metroid.

The Zelda reverse engineering team is almost halfway done with decompiling Twilight Princess. Wind Waker is nearly a fifth of the way done.

 

[Beans00]

Wind Waker is nearly a fifth of the way done.

If anyone wants to know what the wind waker experience was like



What a joy to be alive.

 

[Late Bloomer]

Zelda 2 is the clear favourite



Switch Zelda's are trash. NES and SNES is where it's at.

 

[I eat frozen vegetables]

It's also worth noting that if you use Ship of Harkinian to play Ocarina of Time, it supports the Master Quest. Once the decompilation of Majora's Mask is done, Ship of Harkinian will become 2 Ship 2 Harkinian. This works on all three major operating systems, the Switch, and the Wii U.