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Zelda Series

Nutmeg

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I see a BotW thread, I see a TotK thread, I see a LBW thread, but why don't we have a general Zelda series thread?

Discuss Zelda games here.

I'll kick it off with a long AAR of Zelda 3 and half of Zelda 4 below which I originally posted in another thread in another sub-forum, but someone rightly told me it would be a better fit here.
 

Nutmeg

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Completed Zelda 3 (A Link to the Past) and got a bit more than half way through Zelda 4 (Link's Awakening).

These were the last two Zeldas where Tezuka was listed as the director, before the reins were handed over to Eiji Aounuma.

Zelda 3 tightens the "search" aspect of the search-action formula established in Zelda 1 (which itself was iterating on Druaga) to something more self-contained and less social. Social in the broad sense which ofc. includes the derogatory, cynical sense of selling guide books and hotline game help services, as well as the more positive sense of players sharing the games' secrets with each other through word of mouth, effectively making finding the keys for the games' progress gates a mass collaboration exercise. That is to say that in Zelda 1 (and 2, for that matter), following in the footsteps of Druaga's explicit game design as attested to by its developers, effectively, farmed out the task of bombing, pushing, pulling, lighting on fire etc. each tile in the game to thousands of people. Not so in Zelda 3. In Zelda 3, there are clear visual indicators for which items may be used for which objects, patterns of navigation to reach places from one part of a screen which cannot be reached from the other, and clear textual hints for longer interaction chains involving NPCs.

On the other hand, the action part of search-action was loosened considerably, by the introduction of larger, scrollable areas. These relatively vast, sparsely inhabited fields to a large extent (but not completely) replaced Zelda 1's compact, densely populated, close quarters, single screen dodge 'em or kill 'em arenas. This is especially true for the overworld, which loses some of its character as an "outer dungeon" to make room for towns and NPCs.

No steps are taken to solve fundamental contradiction of action RPGs (in the strict definition of RPGs as numbers go up games), which is that the better the player is in making their numbers go up, the more unimportant action becomes. In fact, this contradiction is exasperated by the overworld becoming less dangerous due to sparsity. In Zelda 1, though the rewards did contradict a whole half of the game, there was real risk associated in earning them which made the initial scramble for permanent power ups an exciting endeavor. Not in Zelda 3.

I often wonder if developers were more honest in how they presented action RPGs would they have captivated the gaming audience as much as they did -- to the point where almost every popular, "big" game in the last 30 years was effectively an action RPG -- if instead of seeing Link raise a heart in triumph upon completing a heart container, you were shown a game difficulty menu, and forced to switch from "brutal" to "very hard", then the next time you complete a heart, from "very hard" to "hard" and so on, until you are playing on "baby" mode. Because, that is the honest truth of what is happening.

Zelda 4, due to the technical constraints of the Game Boy platform, is like Zelda 1 and unlike Zelda 3, strictly a screen flipper, not a scroller. As such the action, specifically within-area navigation (i.e. within screen navigation, in the case of Zelda 4), is considerably tightened. Nevertheless, the overworld is more Zelda 3 than Zelda 1 -- it is exactly twice the size of Zelda 1's world, and though I've not done the math, it feels like every second screen in this 2 for 1 deal is a screen which poses no danger at all, though of course the actual geography of the game world clusters dangerous and peaceful screens together into towns and wilderness. One nice thing about Zelda 4's overworld and its progress gate design is that there are mini-dungeons which act as keys e.g. the Moblin cave or Kanalet castle.

Speaking of progress gates and keys, in comparison to Zelda 3, Zelda 4 disguises even more of its keys as NPCs. Getting to each dungeon requires not just using an item on a specific tile in a specific area, but also entire sequence of pressing A next to an NPC to interact with them, then doing the same with another NPC some screens away, and then perhaps a third and fourth. Sometimes the NPCs follow you, but this is cosmetic, the pattern is still interact with NPC A, then B, then C. Like almost all other Japanese games with NPC interaction, there's no dialog tree to navigate (as shallow as such things are), but sometimes there is a cosmetic, pointless "yes" or "no" choice, which I suppose can sometimes save you some resources if you accidentally started dialog with a shop keeper.

One thing to note here is that NPC locations are easier to remember than, say, abstract switches -- you're more likely to remember a large crocodile which collects canned food living near the beach than a yellow switch you saw next to some bush somewhere. It's also more natural for dialog boxes to give hints as to which NPC needs to be visited next.

Speaking of shop keepers, Zelda 4 has quite the tight economy for the its first half if you don't steal, which you can, but your character gets renamed THIEF, to mark your save file as effectively cheated, or at least make it an obvious separate category for serious play.

On the topic of game economy, both Zelda 3 and 4 completely botch the failure state prevention resource economy -- the heart economy. You can refill your hearts in almost every area in Zelda 3's overworld, and you can always get to the overworld from within a dungeon after completing the first 2 (or 3, depending on how you look at it) very easy dungeons, as you obtain a mirror item that takes you to the dungeon's entrance when you use it within a dungeon (more on that in a bit). Zelda 4 likewise, except instead of using an item, you save and quit and reload.

This is a significant flaw if you take the games' main challenge mechanism seriously -- the no death, or, in Zelda 3's case, even no load clear. Both games count how many times you die, and inform you either with a number next to your save file in the main menu, or after you complete the game. Zelda 4 even gives you its true ending slides only when you manage to complete the game with no deaths. But! A no death run depends entirely on you not bailing from the dungeon when you are low on hearts (with the mirror, hence its significance, in Zelda 3, and with a save and load, in Zelda 4, both of which you can even do from boss rooms) and restocking on hearts by repeatedly mowing any grass near the dungeon entrance with your sword at your leisure.

As a result, taking Zelda 3 and 4 seriously is an exercise in patience as much as it is in getting good, but in neither case an exciting one as it is in games where failure is more imminent. Ofc. this is only against the games' own rating system of player performance -- the "community" instead plays for time as well as continues, which actually addresses the games' flaws a great deal, (although it removes the whole search half of the game, more on that later). Nintendo's own Super Metroid (though from a completely different development team) would recognize this formally by showing the player their time to clear at the end of the game as well.

On the balance, I prefer Zelda 4's design slightly to Zelda 3's, namely for its return to the strict screen flipping format and what that entails. On the other hand, without very minor but very significant QoL rom hacks, Zelda 3 plays much more fluently than Zelda 4, which is constantly interrupted by completely unnecessary dialog boxes when you pick up power ups or accidentally press against a rock or pot without wearing power gloves. I played with a rom hack that removes those dialog boxes altogether (they add nothing!) and also restores the ability to close other dialog boxes, which for some reason was removed from the EN language releases.

Though it has been a (very) long time since I last completed them, from what I know of them and what I still remember, I can say that while Zelda 1 and 2 share exactly the same fundamental design flaws as Zelda 3 and 4, both are more meaty and less padded for either casual or serious play (i.e. routing for efficiency), moreso in comparison to Zelda 3, less so in comparison to 4.

Personally, I quite like Zelda 4's setting and characters more than Zelda 3's, though this is obviously simply a subjective matter of taste.

So why did I finish Zelda 3 and am dropping (though who knows, I sometimes get sucked back in by unfinished business) Zelda 4? Because, you see, after completing dungeon 4, a ghost NPC started following my character. "I get it, I get it", I said to myself, "the game wants me to take the ghost to the cemetery so I can get one of N keys I'll need for the next progress gate". Half way to the cemetery, the ghost instead asks me to take him to his house which he thankfully names so I can quickly look it up on the map. Ok I have to navigate from A to B, not C as I originally thought, no problem, not the most exciting thing ever but not bad, the navigation in this game is serviceable. In short time, but not no time at all, I get there, and of course the NPC then asks me to take him to C -- his grave, which is probably in the cemetery as I originally thought right? Of course not, his grave is not there, because of course it isn't when I remember seeing at least one other grave stone well outside the cemetery somewhere. "Well, I guess it's time to play find my car keys" I said to myself, followed immediately by "why am I doing this? I hate looking for car keys" -- the search part of search action, in a static world, for the most part, doesn't appeal to me at all. I like the routing in these games after the fact, but the initial search for keys to progress gates is, IMO, completely uninteresting. This is of course personal preference, and contrary to what many codexers prefer -- finding your car keys is considered a prestigious activity on this forum, the height of intellect -- but what's more, and I alluded to this earlier in this essay, when you find something, the next time you play, you don't unfind it unless you have a bad memory and even then, only if you fail to note it down, knowing your cognitive limitations. Of course, I don't mind this, as it makes the part of the game I don't care for go away, but if you take the opposite view, and like the search part of search action but hate the action, these are games you can only play *once* -- the contradiction in Zelda's fundamental design cuts both ways.

Of course, the Tezuka Zelda games offer much more in the way of non (strict) action gameplay than simply "play find your car keys". There are, among other things, single or multi-screen navigation and (non-hidden) trigger puzzles. Zelda 3's Ice Palace is an exemplar, and I enjoyed every dungeon in Zelda 4 a fair deal too. But even so, games dedicated to navigation puzzles e.g. Lupupu Cube, Meikyujima (translates to Labyrinth Island, a much more appropriate name than its actual English title Kickle Cubicle), the Eggerland series, Solomon's Key 2, and so on, are more consistent in their quality, and especially pacing -- nothing interrupts the puzzling, after all. Even for things I don't really care or admittedly know much about, like NPC interaction chains (admittedly only really a significant part of Zelda 4, though present in 3 and nascently so in 2), I know enough to be able to say that reactivity focused CRPGs like Fallout and Arcanum are more interesting in this regard.

If we look at action gameplay, then Zelda 1, 3 and 4 sit well bellow top down seek and destroy or combat arena action contemporaries e.g. The Firemen, Granada, Tank Force etc. and especially later genre stablemates Ys Oath in Felghana and Ys Origin (though admittedly, the exception here is that Zelda 2 has an excellent little combat engine that has only been replicated by one other ARPG -- Battle for Olympus -- also on the Famicom, which literally copied the parts of the Zelda 2 program responsible for combat, IIRC).

Perhaps, for many players, Zelda has the same appeal as a mini-game collection like a Mario Pary game or WarioWare from the same company, but where the mini-games are larger are more integrated (though poorly so and with many contradictions, as I have laboriously explained). This would make sense, and would put the primary measure of a Zelda game's quality "for what they are" "the pacing" to use a cliche.

Lastly, I would be remiss not to compare Tezuka's final Zeldas with Eiji Aonuma's 3D successors. Briefly, navigation and trigger puzzles, and even forced car key searches literally gained a third dimension, and it made them more interesting. This is to say nothing of NPC interaction chains and multi-modal puzzles in Majora's Mask, which are far more interesting than in previous entries, despite being less a product of, or otherwise affected by, the move to 3D. On the other hand, actually playing the games became less a part of the experience, as both games were very much so victims of the trend of interspersing times where the game actually accepts player input with lengthy unskippable, non-interactive, in-engine cinema, a trend which plagued and continues to plague many other games from that time onward. The 3D combat, when considering the challenge posed by individual enemies and their behaviors, is no worse than the combat in the 2D games, perhaps better, but fighting groups of enemies is more rare (due to technical constraints, I suppose), and the combinations less numerous, and how they interact with the environments less interesting. In non gameplay aspects, both Majora's Mask and Ocarina of Time, IMO, have absolutely charming art, characters and worlds which compare favorably to Zelda 4, let alone Zelda 3.

In summary, Zelda 3 and 4 are good for what they are but what they are, just like other games in the genre their predecessors and they themselves helped establish, is ultimately a synthesis of competing designs with no resolution to the resulting contradictions. However, if you like one part of the game, you are able to ignore some other to a greater or lesser extent by focusing your play on the former. Both games are paced well, which might be the best way to judge Zelda games for what they are, all things considered, outside of looking at their individual parts, which will never be as good as other games dedicated solely to those individual parts. In this light, Zelda 1 and 2 are more brisk in their pacing than Zelda 3 (spatially) and 4 (dialog), which in turn are themselves more brisk than the N64 games. Zelda 3 is also notably the first Zelda which ditches the "crowd solving" oriented puzzle design inherited from Druaga, to better fit strictly solo play for the initial clear. For subsequent clears, the search aspect disappears altogether, giving Zelda 1, or at least my recollection of Zelda 1, an edge over Zeldas 3 and 4 due to its brisker pace and more compact, dangerous world. That said, depending on how charming you find Zelda 4's art and characters, you may forgive the time it takes to present these to you, even on subsequent serious playthroughs, especially if using QoL hacks, putting it more on par with Zelda 1.
 

Falksi

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I love Link to the Past, one of my fave games of all time and definitely in the top 10, but beyond that my experience with the series has been pretty "meh".

What does me about it the most is that so many obviously haggard or lacking entries are held up as some of the best games ever made, when they are clearly far from it. They may have some brilliant aspects, but depite them the overall experience isn't great and stuff like Ocarina of Time for example has incredibly dated and janky gameplay now; it shouldn't be anywhere near a "best ever" list...it's bad Dark Souls with puzzles and less challenge.

In fact Ocarina of Time is my most disappointing game ever; gone is the snappy 2D gameplay, puzzles and challenge are diluted from the first 3 entries, and this entry introduces boring filler content to the formula too. Fast forward to BOTW & TOTK, and that empty filler seems to have become the main focus of the games, with both feeling more like climbing sims than anything.

Golden Axe Warrior is also a better 8-Bit Zelda game than anything on NES too, something which always makes me laugh when Zelda games get hailed as untouchable lol.

So yeah, I get why people like the series and think the odd entry is great, but I also don't see why it should be held in higher regard than most other series tbh. Like most others, it's hit & miss and a it suffers from the influence of decline quite badly IMO.
 
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Damned Registrations

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This is of course personal preference, and contrary to what many codexers prefer -- finding your car keys is considered a prestigious activity on this forum, the height of intellect -- but what's more, and I alluded to this earlier in this essay, when you find something, the next time you play, you don't unfind it unless you have a bad memory and even then, only if you fail to note it down, knowing your cognitive limitations
The thing about early Zelda games (and proper Metroidvania games) is that the search for progression is an entirely nonlinear one. Yes, at some point or another you'll need to find the one key that opens the door you must get through to finish the dungeon you're in. But in a general sense, once you leave the castle in Zelda 3... the world is your oyster. Sure, the game tells you to go to the village (find your car keys) but you can tell the game to fuck right off, pick up some bombs, grab the ice rod, a mushroom, trade that to a witch for magic dust, and generally just fuck around doing whatever you want. Some of it is power upgrades to make things easier, some of it are keys you'll need much later in the game, some of it is a total waste of time. But the point is that you're not searching for a specific thing, but exploring to find anything of use whatsoever. This is vastly more interesting than games that involve shuffling you from one location to the next in a particular order to preserve their precious balance. It's like the difference between being a kid in a candy store and an adult sent to buy toilet paper.

So many modern 'exploration' games, even ones with supposedly 'open' worlds, are so restrictive in what you can find in what order they play more like a list of chores someone else is giving you one at a time- often in frustratingly inefficient order.
 

Machocruz

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In fact Ocarina of Time is my most disappointing game ever; gone is the snappy 2D gameplay, puzzles and challenge are diluted from the first 3 entries,
I would say the problem is sort of the opposite on the puzzle aspect. 1 and 2 didn't have anything I consider a puzzle, but maybe there's something I'm not remembering. 3 had the beginnings of such, but these you could briskly execute, in line with the tempo of the rest of the game. With Ocarina we get "challenging" puzzles (i.e. take more time to complete) and this became the definition of LoZ for the generations who grew up with that game. To the extent that anyone gets stuck, it's on shit like Water Temple, not any of the encounters. Now, the games were still enjoyable to me, but I've long been wanting to see a return to the purity of 1 and 2. You can say other games have done the job the old games did, and they have, but I'd like to see what Nintendo would do, how they would strip it back down to a core action-exploration experience. BotW and it's magnet play is not it.

Then there is the tone and aesthetics. I interpreted the original as a desolate world with the (weird) remnants of civilization hiding away among the ruins, like FromSoftware games, but without veering into what I'd call dark fantasy. Dungeons gloomy and full of peril. 2 already has towns and more NPCs, so maybe the point is that society is rebuilding from 1-3, color and abundance returning to Hyrule, but the majority of games now have been candy colored with a number of lively and cutesy NPCs. Granted, with a sense of desolation here and there. Aonuma's games are far too easy on top of it, but then I've heard he couldn't even beat the first game.
 

Lucumo

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No steps are taken to solve fundamental contradiction of action RPGs (in the strict definition of RPGs as numbers go up games), which is that the better the player is in making their numbers go up, the more unimportant action becomes. In fact, this contradiction is exasperated by the overworld becoming less dangerous due to sparsity. In Zelda 1, though the rewards did contradict a whole half of the game, there was real risk associated in earning them which made the initial scramble for permanent power ups an exciting endeavor. Not in Zelda 3.
Not sure what you are talking about. After defeating Aga, there are more enemies and more aggressive enemies in the light overworld. So despite getting the Master Sword, it becomes more difficult to traverse.

What does me about it the most is that so many obviously haggard or lacking entries are held up as some of the best games ever made, when they are clearly far from it. They may have some brilliant aspects, but depite them the overall experience isn't great and stuff like Ocarina of Time for example has incredibly dated and janky gameplay now; it shouldn't be anywhere near a "best ever" list...it's bad Dark Souls with puzzles and less challenge.
Always depends on whether these lists are with context or without.
 
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In fact Ocarina of Time is my most disappointing game ever; gone is the snappy 2D gameplay, puzzles and challenge are diluted from the first 3 entries,
Then there is the tone and aesthetics. I interpreted the original as a desolate world with the (weird) remnants of civilization hiding away among the ruins, like FromSoftware games, but without veering into what I'd call dark fantasy. Dungeons gloomy and full of peril. 2 already has towns and more NPCs, so maybe the point is that society is rebuilding from 1-3, color and abundance returning to Hyrule, but the majority of games now have been candy colored with a number of lively and cutesy NPCs. Granted, with a sense of desolation here and there. Aonuma's games are far too easy on top of it, but then I've heard he couldn't even beat the first game.

Really, really well-said.

Don't get me wrong, OoT and the later Zeldas do hold a special place in my heart, but the implied tone and aesthetics, or 'imagination gap' as Falski put it in this wonderful thread in the old games is superior in my mind. I absolutely loathe the Link's Awakening switch remake for this reason alone- they could've enhanced the graphics to look like the concept art or intro sequence, but instead they phoned it in and the game looks like Animal Crossing ffs. What a disappointment. The game was inspired by Twin Peaks, even the soundtrack often invokes a sense of mystery; the first time I stumbled onto Southern Face shrine, lighting the torches in the darkened room to read the Wind Fish mural is etched into my memory:



This is also a big reason I was so disappointed at the initial Wind Waker announcement-- with its goofy moblins suspended in the air like a looney tunes cartoon. I know graphically it 'holds up' and the game has merit, but it's too bad they didn't stick the '90s anime' artstyle, or been inspired by some of their earlier concept art if they were going with the cel-shaded look. We could've had some really awesome-looking Zelda games if they preserved the aesthetics from the manuals of Zelda 1-4.

lfkvsh4g3d2b1.jpg


zelda2-conceptart-P9kmn.jpg\


zelda2-conceptart-9-Zz-VU.jpg


linkdx-conceptart-QYv4p.jpg
 
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pakoito

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I love me some good fucking dungeons. Boss Keys was a delight to watch, and by the end of it they nailed the core elements of each game.

A Link Between Worlds is the unrecognized best 2D Zelda.

I couldn't get halfway through Wind Waker.

TP has aged well, but it takes forever to pick up pace.

I've come around to BotW and TotK on their own terms too.
 

Machocruz

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Really, really well-said.

Don't get me wrong, OoT and the later Zeldas do hold a special place in my heart, but the implied tone and aesthetics, or 'imagination gap' as Falski put it in this wonderful thread in the old games is superior in my mind. I absolutely loathe the Link's Awakening switch remake for this reason alone- they could've enhanced the graphics to look the concept art or intro sequence, but instead they phoned it in and the game looks like Animal Crossing ffs. What a disappointment. The game was inspired by Twin Peaks, even the soundtrack often invokes a sense of mystery; the first time I stumbled onto Southern Face shrine, lighting the torches in the darkened room to read the Wind Fish mural is etched into my memory:



This is also a big reason I was so disappointed at the initial Wind Waker announcement-- with its goofy moblins suspended in the air like a looney tunes cartoon. I know graphically it 'holds up' and the game has merit, but it's too bad they didn't stick the '90s anime' artstyle, or been inspired by some of their earlier concept art if they were going with the cel-shaded look. We could've had some really awesome-looking Zelda games if they preserved the aesthetics from the manuals of Zelda 1-4.

lfkvsh4g3d2b1.jpg


zelda2-conceptart-P9kmn.jpg\


zelda2-conceptart-9-Zz-VU.jpg


linkdx-conceptart-QYv4p.jpg

Agree.

There was a thread on Resetera I stumbled upon discussing the direction of the LA remake. Someone writes something along the lines of "akshuallyyyyy, art direction doesn't have to reflect the tone/theme of the thing". Yeah, there's no legislation saying it must or else, but in practice that's what art direction is supposed to do, and does in the hands of rational adults. So if Game of Thrones had the art direction of Barbie, that'd be a-ok too I guess. This is why we can't have nice things, folks.
 

Nutmeg

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Then there is the tone and aesthetics. I interpreted the original as a desolate world with the (weird) remnants of civilization hiding away among the ruins
It's not just tone or aesthetics, it's functional as well -- in Zelda 1 there's no grass for you to mow with your sword for hearts. The only way to stock back up is to risk it against enemies and not get hit for long enough to get a heart drop.

The thing about early Zelda games (and proper Metroidvania games) is that the search for progression is an entirely nonlinear one
Zelda 4 is quite linear, unless you get the dungeon treasure but then for some reason don't take the extra minute or two to defeat the dungeon boss. I guess you could do this as a challenge to keep your heart stock low, and also leave the owl dialogue to the end of the game -- I assume the owl dialog for instrument 4 is still triggered even if you get instrument 5 first.

But in a general sense, once you leave the castle in Zelda 3... the world is your oyster. Sure, the game tells you to go to the village (find your car keys) but you can tell the game to fuck right off, pick up some bombs, grab the ice rod, a mushroom, trade that to a witch for magic dust, and generally just fuck around doing whatever you want. Some of it is power upgrades to make things easier, some of it are keys you'll need much later in the game, some of it is a total waste of time. But the point is that you're not searching for a specific thing, but exploring to find anything of use whatsoever. This is vastly more interesting than games that involve shuffling you from one location to the next in a particular order to preserve their precious balance. It's like the difference between being a kid in a candy store and an adult sent to buy toilet paper.
What you are describing is deliberately ignoring the information the game gives you on how to progress through it, because you're not interested in actually clearing it but rather treating it as a sandbox -- a theme park if you will. Personally I don't really care for Garry's mod, but I suppose it is a valid way to get entertainment from interactive media (not really a game at that point), if one is so inclined.
 
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Nutmeg

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There was a thread on Resetera I stumbled upon discussing the direction of the LA remake. Someone writes something along the lines of "akshuallyyyyy, art direction doesn't have to reflect the tone/theme of the thing".
The Zelda 4 art you posted appeared in a "Nintendo Player's Guide" for Zelda 4 and was commissioned by Nintendo from Katsuya Terada for these guide books as they appeared in various regions and perhaps other supplementary materials. Katsuya Terada being the extremely talented artist who did similar supplemental art for Virtua Fighter 2, and the actual in-game art for the Busin Wizardry games, among many other non-game related works.

It doesn't reflect the in-game art of Zelda 4 (or earlier Zelda games, for that matter, for which he also illustrated supplemental materials), which obviously conforms to the SD (Super Deformed or "chibi") style -- not just the sprites and tiles, which you could argue had to be in the SD style due to the design constraints imposed by the fact they were art for a top down screen flipping character exploration game to be displayed on a Game Boy screen, but also the character portraits appearing in the game's full screen "photos" (for printing with the Game Boy printer), and animated slideshow cinematics, which had no such constraints. Zelda 4 manual art though not SD, is likewise extremely different in tone from Terada's designs.

Compare Marin as depicted by Terada for a Zelda 4 guide book:

tHKgXKI.jpeg


With Sarah Bryant in Terada's Virtual Fighter 2 manga art:

dIxSp2u.jpeg


Similar no? Terada always draws the same kind of girl. Now compare with Marin as she appears in the Zelda 4 manual:

SYwwfNh.png


Or in the in-game cutscenes

KFFTVmE.png


ZysYF9D.png


Completely different.

So, what you really like is the art of Katsuya Terada, who was responsible only for supplementary artwork which would appear in supporting materials. It was created well after the games shipped and was never used as actual concept art to inform in-game art direction -- aesthetics, tone, atmosphere.

Nintendo's own Zelda concept art, IMO, was never that great, not up until the N64 games anyway, sucks even more now, and even at its peak was certainly not Terada level. Nintendo just happened to commission a really good artist that went *against* their own concept art and character designs for their Zelda 1-4 guide books, and now everyone thinks that Terada's art was the original vision. It was not.
 
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DJOGamer PT

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why don't we have a general Zelda series thread?
we do
it's just quite old and people stoped posting there


but I've long been wanting to see a return to the purity of 1 and 2. ... I'd like to see what Nintendo would do, how they would strip it back down to a core action-exploration experience. BotW and it's magnet play is not it.
It very much is
 

Bruma Hobo

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On the topic of Zelda, something that I discovered recently is the existence of Zelda Classic: https://www.zeldaclassic.com/

In short, it's a engine to create Zelda quests in the vein of the classic games. There are some pretty interesting stuff there, this one is one of the most interesting I've played so far: https://www.purezc.net/index.php?page=quests&id=461
Zelda Classic is great, and there are some gems to find in there, but unfortunately it's very hard to find them among all that rubbish. The Purezc community is composed of tards with awful taste.
 

hackncrazy

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On the topic of Zelda, something that I discovered recently is the existence of Zelda Classic: https://www.zeldaclassic.com/

In short, it's a engine to create Zelda quests in the vein of the classic games. There are some pretty interesting stuff there, this one is one of the most interesting I've played so far: https://www.purezc.net/index.php?page=quests&id=461
Zelda Classic is great, and there are some gems to find in there, but unfortunately it's very hard to find them among all that rubbish. The Purezc community is composed of tards with awful taste.
I agree that is hard to find the gems there. They lack some form of a curated system to give the proper highlight to really good quests. They should do something like trle.net does for Tomb Raider Levels, with a hall of fame that makes it easy to find what is good and what isn't.
 

Machocruz

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The Zelda 4 art you posted appeared in a "Nintendo Player's Guide" for Zelda 4 and was commissioned by Nintendo from Katsuya Terada for these guide books as they appeared in various regions and perhaps other supplementary materials. Katsuya Terada being the extremely talented artist who did similar supplemental art for Virtua Fighter 2, and the actual in-game art for the Busin Wizardry games, among many other non-game related works.

It doesn't reflect the in-game art of Zelda 4 (or earlier Zelda games, for that matter, for which he also illustrated supplemental materials), which obviously conforms to the SD (Super Deformed or "chibi") style -- not just the sprites and tiles, which you could argue had to be in the SD style due to the design constraints imposed by the fact they were art for a top down screen flipping character exploration game to be displayed on a Game Boy screen, but also the character portraits appearing in the game's full screen "photos" (for printing with the Game Boy printer), and animated slideshow cinematics, which had no such constraints. Zelda 4 manual art though not SD, is likewise extremely different in tone from Terada's designs.

Compare Marin as depicted by Terada for a Zelda 4 guide book:

tHKgXKI.jpeg


With Sarah Bryant in Terada's Virtual Fighter 2 manga art:

dIxSp2u.jpeg


Similar no? Terada always draws the same kind of girl. Now compare with Marin as she appears in the Zelda 4 manual:

SYwwfNh.png


Or in the in-game cutscenes

KFFTVmE.png


ZysYF9D.png


Completely different.

So, what you really like is the art of Katsuya Terada, who was responsible only for supplementary artwork which would appear in supporting materials. It was created well after the games shipped and was never used as actual concept art to inform in-game art direction -- aesthetics, tone, atmosphere.

Nintendo's own Zelda concept art, IMO, was never that great, not up until the N64 games anyway, sucks even more now, and even at its peak was certainly not Terada level. Nintendo just happened to commission a really good artist that went *against* their own concept art and character designs for their Zelda 1-4 guide books, and now everyone thinks that Terada's art was the original vision. It was not.
I didn't post those pictures or give my opinion on them, and that part of my post you quoted is not in reference to them specifically. I know Terada's illustrations were not concept pieces for any of the games, I've followed his work for a long time. Everything I think about tone is derived from the games themselves. I don't think his way of drawing characters is a good fit, but some of the backgrounds and color choices are decent expressions of that desolation I mentioned. I think Nintendo's illustrations for the original LA were perfectly fine, would have been cool if the games looked like them. The manual and box arts have more often than not been more appealing to me than the in-game designs.
 
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Morpheus Kitami

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I always thought the NES and N64 titles were best, probably because I had that one Gamecube compilation as a kid.

For the original, I always liked how unrestricted the game was. Sure, there was a proper order to things, but it was one of the rare games to truly put you in a position where anything was possible at any moment. You could go anywhere, do anything, and IIRC, you couldn't really screw up in an unfixable way. It wasn't perfect, but it did something new at the time and it did it very well. (unless someone knows of something that did the same concept earlier) The sequel kind of restricted this, but you still generally had that same sense of freedom.

The N64 titles did the whole open world concept very well too. I realize that's something of an unpopular opinion around here. It's not as open as the originals, but you get a lot of freedom, and the world is just packed with stuff in a way that other open world games never seem to do. Majora's Mask did have the trouble of that whole time travel mechanic making a lot of things incredibly tedious to deal with.

ALttP and WW were just kind of bland entries, with ALttP feeling like an awkward misstep between the original and OoT, and WW having a whole lot of nothing going on. Never completed the Oracle games for some reason and never touched anything else.
 

Nutmeg

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My dream top down Zelda would be Zelda 4 dungeon and puzzle design connected by a dangerous, desolate Zelda 1 like overworld, and paced by a time attack mechanic where completing a dungeons would extend the time limit by N minutes. There is a series precedent for time attack in BS Zelda, though it worked differently in that game than what I just described.

Then maybe some way to address the permanent power up problem -- possibly just make them non permanent.

Then maybe something like missable high risk secrets based scoring in addition to the series' existing death keeping (i.e. the triggers for these secrets would require considerable skill to execute at risk of losing significant hearts, and you'd only have one shot at them), to make something other than speed running an option for serious play.

What would other people's dream top down Zelda look like?
 
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DJOGamer PT

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I wouldn't call it a dream 2D Zelda
But I would like to see another stab at side-scrolling Zelda
More specifically the distinction between combat areas (side-scrolling) and exploration areas (top-down)

Majora's Mask did have the trouble of that whole time travel mechanic making a lot of things incredibly tedious to deal with.
No it didn't
MM is perfectly paced
 

DJOGamer PT

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MM is not a game you immediately replay after completing it
In fact none of the Zelda games besides 1, 2 and BotW have that kind of repaly value because of their adherence to the ALttP formula

As for the first cycle you can do it fairly quickly - just go to the inn and ask the granny to tell you stories (that will skip to the final day) and then go to the chronomancer scarecrow in the bomb shop and ask him to speed up time
 

AfterVirtue

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For me "classic" Zelda, up to N64, but especially ALttP and OoT, are "perfect" thanks to the simple story, the type of gameplay, the art and the music that give the best impression of a magic fairy tale, in Propp sense; a bit "fantasyzed" of course, but in a good way. Majora's Mask too... pushing the weird on the fairy tale angle, i guess.
 

Nutmeg

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because of their adherence to the ALttP formula
I thought Zelda 3's pacing was fine on my most recent replay (just last weekend), though a step-down from the Famicom games. The larger, scrollable areas add maybe 3 seconds of unnecessary empty space for every 10 seconds of navigational meat, and dialog is modal, unlike Zelda 1's background text, and lengthier than in Zelda 2, halting play for a bit longer, but it's very infrequent compared to later Zeldas. There's nothing like Majora's Mask's 5 minute opening cutscene. After 5 minutes of Zelda 3, you've already completed the game's first dungeon.
 

DJOGamer PT

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You're blowing it out of porpotion
And by the 5 minute mark the player is entering the clock tower
Lastly Majora's Mask is a longer game, more ambitious and complex in scope and tone - it needs a more intricate set-up than ALttP
 

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