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Would anyone be interested in a KoDP-like game?

jiduthie

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Joined
Oct 5, 2006
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94
I've been working on a game off and on for a few years now and its come to the point where I need to make a decision about what to do next. If you'll allow, I want to talk a little about the inspiration and give a description.

The idea is to make a game that plays more or less like King of Dragon Pass, in that you're the "will" behind a village of people and you must guide them to success. There will be farms, herds, population, leaders, turn-based seasons and every so often you'll be confronted by events which will provide alot of the all-important choice and consequence. I thought KoDP was a superb game, and I think alot of people around here do it a disservice by not including it in their top lists of RPG's. It's true that the main character in the game isn't a person, rather a town. It's also true that many of the game's challenges couldn't be overcome with combat. Nevertheless, if people gave it some thought they'd realise that it really delivered alot of what everyone here clamours for. I thought it would be worthwhile to expand this concept in an original setting.

My game's set in a post-apocalyptic world (It wasn't so trendy as to be lame at the time I started, I assure you.) where the ragged survivors are beginning to restore some semblance of civilization. It's the player's job to advance the village to the point that its future is secure. There are four different "paths" to the game(War, Growth, Lore, and Influence) and these all have a couple aspects to them, for example Influence is further split into diplomacy and espionage. Each of these paths have an associated series of events which can eventually offer a way to win the game. Sometimes these paths can be mutually exclusive, for example: you won't be able succeed at, or likely even get, the Influence series of events if you've been destroying everyone you find. Generally though, you can't ignore any path entirely and the degree of specialisation/generalisation is a balancing act. The series of events for a given path are also branching and my goal is to make it possible for the player to completely fail a path so that he must move in another direction. Leaders each have an affinity for a path more or less like each noble worshiped a god in KoDP which determined their ability in certain areas. Emphasizing a given path will have alot to do with what type of leaders you select as your chief and put into other positions of power(The Ring from KoDP is quite a bit more involved here) as well as what kind of actions you take, for example: recovering lots of artifacts from before the fall and studying them will bring Lore events as well as other benefits. I could go on forever, but hopefully that gives you an idea of what I'm shooting for.

Finally, it's probably not a good idea to admit this, but the original goal of the game was to teach myself enough Python to "make a game." Now, though, it's come to the point where the interface is incomplete but works. The underlying mechanics of the village work and are ready to be played with by events. The map is uninteresting at the moment, but it's there and you can send groups of people about it. I can square away variables into a save system that will load and recreate an old village(That was a bitch to figure out when I had no clue what a save system entailed when I started.) There were various features I didn't know if I was going to be able to figure out, various bugs I didn't think I could squash and eventually those problems were solved. The rest is mainly just doing more of the same and I'm fairly confident I can finish the game at this point. Moreover, I have this mass of text files I've accumulated describing scenes, incomplete mechanics, and everthing in between. So while I have achieved my goal, in that I think I could make a game(at least one like this), it seems a shame to stop here.

So my question to the Codex: Would you all be interested in a game like this?

I don't want a career in the game industry, I'm not interested in selling the game, and a lot of the game's appeal would come from the art, for which I'm completely unqualified. This has become something of an obsession though and I'd like a good idea of whether or not I'm barking up the right tree before I start trying to recruit someone and getting more serious.
 

GarfunkeL

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My main beef with KODP was that many things seemed so arbitrary. I read the manual/readme that came with the game, read the instructions and still I didn't understand the mechanics - what was going on. Many of the results seemed completely random - frustrating when you cannot really plan ahead for your raids, for example. I couldn't play it as a strategy-game because the player has no little control over what happens and I sure as hell couldn't play it as an RPG either. Maybe I was doing something wrong.

So what I'd advice is to make the mechanics intuitive and visible so that a player can learn them and thus handle the game better. Having a better GUI would help as well.

But I for one would be interested in such a game, in any case.
 

fastjack

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the south bay
re

I LOVE KoDP and would love to see any games similar to it. KoDP however really benefited from having a well fleshed out setting with decades of tweaks from a devoted community, which gave it a consistency which I think was important for me, moreso than the gameplay itself. Nevertheless I think the idea of playing a tribe/whatever has a lot of mileage in it and that picking PA setting is a great move.

I skipped some of what you wrote because it looked a little spoilery (I don't like knowing behind the scenes game design stuff, It's like reading tvtropes and trying to enjoy a movie afterward IMO) so I don't know what else to say other than yes work on it and release it! plz
 

mondblut

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As long as it has real combat and economics instead of a bunch of arbitrary random rolls, go for it.

Consider, though, that half of KODP's charm was richly developed setting and the artwork, and you likely have neither.
 

laclongquan

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You know what make me snicker about KODP? The devs and the long time players, they are all larpers, figuratively speaking.

To them tribes must be small and therefore when the time comes (internal conflict) you must divide the tribe into a smaller one to reduce conflict.

Fuck that, said I! I used all the tricks I know to keep the tribe intact, big and strong. Oh, the leaders will be selected from some unobtimal personels, some more effort toward worshipping the goddess of plague to assuage her, but at the end of day I got me a big tribe.

99% success of raids, total security, etc and etc...
The only thing attempt to prevent my big tribe is some whiners in the kodp yahoo group keep insisting that the tribes must be small. Excuse me! Who want to keep tribes small? Who want to voluntary surrender their security?

bah humbug!

EDIT: the moral of the lesson? Dont force your preconceptions onto gamers. We tread our own paths, in games as well in thoughts. And dont whine about gamer's independence either.
 
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I didn't go for the whole 'keep tribe small' thing either, though it took a while to figure out the best methods to do so. Losing is part of the KODP experience after all.
 

jiduthie

Educated
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Oct 5, 2006
Messages
94
Unexpected real life has kept me away from the keyboard the past few days, but I'm glad to see a few people interested.

I completely agree about things feeling "arbitrary" in KoDP, I believe that randomness has it's place in games but that KoDP went too far. Decreasing that feeling is one of the main goals of the project. Combat with other villages/entities will require increased decision making. It will still involve a certain amount of uncertainty, but the goal is to make a success or failure feel like a reasonable outcome or something the player could have expected.

To fastjack: I assure you I haven't spoiled anything, I did my best to explain things in a way that gave you an idea of what I was doing without ruining anything. If story or surprises is what you're after, I haven't even touched on any of that.

To the rest: I have no reason, either back-story or mechanic related, to force you into decisions like the splitting of the clan. I agree that one of the problems with KoDP was that it would punish you for success.

The game I'm working on won't do that. I'm a strategy gamer, my favorite games are X-Com and JA2. Progress will present difficult decisions but will not require you to start over, like splitting your clan could effectively do. My love affair with KoDP doesn't mean I'm unable to see it's faults. The fact that it was imperfect is what made me want to make a game like it in the first place. Further, I'm also aware that I have neither a "richly developed setting... [or] the artwork." I think that can change though. Realistically, Glorantha will likely always be a better setting than I can come up with in the space of a few years, but I do believe I can come up with a setting that is compelling enough for a game that includes improved roleplaying/strategy elements. Admittedly, on the art front, it will be difficult to find anyone who wants to commit the time and talent to make this game on par with the art on KoDP. That difficulty isn't discouraging to me, however. Either way, the purpose of my post was not to sell you on my story or art abilities, it was to determine whether or not there were people, like myself, who want to see a game that played like an improved version of KoDP.
 

jiduthie

Educated
Joined
Oct 5, 2006
Messages
94
Just an update: the past couple weeks I've been working on hooking up all the code for research and it's related activities to the interface.

Here's a screenshot of the "war screen" in it's rough state:
jq3udh.jpg



I'll say it again: I know it's rough. The map, if it's even obvious what that thing in the center is, is just a placeholder, I've even got a "**TODO**" in there, but everything else is functional. I mainly just wanted to show that I have something that kinda works, rather than just a bunch of ideas and random bits of code.
 

Zed

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lol.

I basically worked on the same thing. Post-apoc KoDP. Except the plans was to make it a little Civ-like as well.

Never got around to do more than UI and a little work on events and turns.

If I ever pick it up again I won't be making it like KoDP though, I'll steer it more towards a simple Civ-like. But with randomized events based on Leader/town stats and citizen allocation.
 

tindrli

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KoDP is a great game and i still have it installed
My game's set in a post-apocalyptic world (It wasn't so trendy as to be lame at the time I started, I assure you.) where the ragged survivors are beginning to restore some semblance of civilization. It's the player's job to advance the village to the point that its future is secure. There are four different "paths" to the game(War, Growth, Lore, and Influence) and these all have a couple aspects to them, for example Influence is further split into diplomacy and espionage. Each of these paths have an associated series of events which can eventually offer a way to win the game. Sometimes these paths can be mutually exclusive, for example: you won't be able succeed at, or likely even get, the Influence series of events if you've been destroying everyone you find. Generally though, you can't ignore any path entirely and the degree of specialisation/generalisation is a balancing act. The series of events for a given path are also branching and my goal is to make it possible for the player to completely fail a path so that he must move in another direction. Leaders each have an affinity for a path more or less like each noble worshiped a god in KoDP which determined their ability in certain areas. Emphasizing a given path will have alot to do with what type of leaders you select as your chief and put into other positions of power(The Ring from KoDP is quite a bit more involved here) as well as what kind of actions you take, for example: recovering lots of artifacts from before the fall and studying them will bring Lore events as well as other benefits. I could go on forever, but hopefully that gives you an idea of what I'm shooting for.

THis is AWESOME IDEA MAN!!!!!..

and DONT YOU DARE TO STOP THE PROJECT!!!!!!!

:bravo:
 

jiduthie

Educated
Joined
Oct 5, 2006
Messages
94
tindrli said:
THis is AWESOME IDEA MAN!!!!!..

and DONT YOU DARE TO STOP THE PROJECT!!!!!!!


heh, sarcasm? Either way I'm still plugging away at it. I've just laid the groundwork for the "customs" system which is an expression of how the population feels about certain things like the military and technology. This will eventually have a large impact on the types of events that pop up, how the population reacts to your decisions, and will also have some effect on the effectiveness of your village in certain areas. For instance, a particularly technophobic society will have difficulty doing research and won't be too happy if you start digging up old gizmos. You'll be able to influence these feelings to an extent through your "lawgiver" official but events will have an impact as well.


zed said:
If I ever pick it up again I won't be making it like KoDP though, I'll steer it more towards a simple Civ-like.

Thing is, I think it would be pretty hard to improve on a game like Alpha Centauri without a large team. For my level of ability, anyway, it seems a more realistic goal to expand on KoDP's mechanics while retaining the storytelling aspects.
 

jiduthie

Educated
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Oct 5, 2006
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94
zelda64whatagreatgame said:
'll join uyp on a message board if you make one and will come with various stupid suggestions for you to ignore.

Lol, this is a hobby game, I'm not some fancy pants professional developer who's in the business of ignoring people.

I've thought about starting up a blog somewhere or maybe a journal on gamedev.net to track my progress and maybe attract some like-minded people. If I do I'll certainly post a link here.
 

GarfunkeL

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Keep at it jiduthie, there's quite a few people on this forum who aren't scared by lack of AAA-gfx and who wouldn't mind playing your game or helping out as beta-testers or whatever.
 

commie

The Last Marxist
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Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Divinity: Original Sin 2
It's better looking than Swords and Sorcery at any rate. Good on you man, I always respect those who can put their ideas into gaming reality. I on the other hand have ideas but no ability to make anything.
 

jiduthie

Educated
Joined
Oct 5, 2006
Messages
94
A couple days after posting that pic I decided it was too ugly and set about trying to make things a bit prettier, which is kind of a waste of time this early on, but what the hey. Here's what it looks like now:

2cz947c.jpg




The art up top is part of a painting by Thomas Cole, which I believe is public domain considering it was done in 1843. The new map is a map of Death Valley from the USGS. Originally the idea with the tiles from the previous pic was to make a randomly generated map for each new game. I'm moving away from that idea though because it was rather excessive and necessitated poor graphics unless the tiles are very small, which makes it more excessive. It just wasn't worth it considering the exploration events would be semi random anyway, and the placing of static sites like other towns can be semi random without a fully random map anyway.
 
Self-Ejected

Jack

█▓▒░
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Insert Title Here
1zcpyde.jpg

Over 9000 hours in MS Paint.

Also, I'm looking forward to your game. Another one to add to the do want list.
 

jiduthie

Educated
Joined
Oct 5, 2006
Messages
94
Jack said:
Over 9000 hours in MS Paint.

Jesus christ, you want a job that pays nothing and eats all your time?


Edit: I also love that you left my "cheat button" untouched, the grey bit that occurs at the upper-center of the screenshot. The purpose of the button is to open a menu which allows me to alter various variables while running the game, the fact that you let it be makes it seem like you knew what it was. Amusing, to me anyway.
 

laclongquan

Arcane
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1,870,159
Location
Searching for my kidnapped sister
Mhmm..

Anyway, to recap my idea:

IF you intend the tribe/organization to be small and want to entice players toward dividing tribe/organization, like in KODP.... You should think of features that encourage it.

I often thought about KODP. Now, if they increase the frequency and the severity of plagues and sickness that attack big tribe, or some other features, that make playing big tribe too troublesome and induce player to voluntarily divide their own.... Well I have no problem with that. The job of game developers is setting up a game world that encourage players playing after all, and if they set up believable discouragement, well, it's their job after all.
 

jiduthie

Educated
Joined
Oct 5, 2006
Messages
94
laclongquan said:
IF you intend the tribe/organization to be small and want to entice players toward dividing tribe/organization, like in KODP.... You should think of features that encourage it.

I think I tried to say this before, but I absolutely do not want players to have to divide the tribe. There absolutely will not be a population size trigger for such an event. Farming and fertility will act as a (very) soft cap, fewer babies will be born if there isn't enough food around. You'll get better at farming over time though. Disease will also generally act as a (somewhat harder)soft cap, increasing in severity with increasing population, but there will be multiple ways of dealing with this. From the screenshots you'll see that 'medicine' is an item to be collected. Finding, producing, and using medicine will be one way of overcoming disease. Research is another. KoDP had a good reason, from the IP, to limit clan sizes. I don't. In fact 'Growth' is one of the paths that will allow you to win the game. Reaching high levels of population will be hard, but getting there is a goal rather than something you'll be punished for. I won't rule out some sort of 'dividing' event but if there is one, it'll provide benefits and the decision will be more cost/benefit analysis and less "you have to do this because you're too successful."
 

zenbitz

Scholar
Joined
Feb 2, 2009
Messages
295
I really like the USGS maps. Even if you fake them (rotate, distort) for some fantasy earth it will be cool.

So... there is an OLD OLD school board game made by a wargame company SPI back in the 70s called "After the Holocaust"

It was a torture to play with PnP (they had 1040 forms!) but it had a very very well done economic simulator (much better than crap civ games).

I have a copy, and I have been thinking about turning it into a computer game for years (just busy with other projects)... if you are interested, send me a PM, and we can rip the mechanics off.
 

Karmapowered

Augur
Joined
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Messages
512
If there is interest in a KoDP like game ?


What this fine gentleman said above, +1.

Jiduthie, consider yourself as stalked... I mean, this page added to the list of worthwhile threads to be followed on the Kodex.
 

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