Why not a LP of Neverwinter Night 1

[Roguey]

where is that from?

The Evolution of RPG Mechanics: From Die Rolls to Hit Volumes
SPEAKER/S: Joshua Sawyer (Obsidian Entertainment)
DAY / TIME / LOCATION: TBD
TRACK / DURATION / FORMAT: Game Design / 50-Minute / Session

DESCRIPTION: This session illuminates valuable lessons developers have learned in designing and implementing mechanics for contemporary cross-platform RPGs. Though classic RPGs have their roots in simulating tabletop games, recent titles such as Dragon Age, Mass Effect, Fallout 3 and New Vegas, Alpha Protocol, and Dungeon Siege 3 commonly borrow more player-driven mechanics from other genres. From the pitfalls of virtual die rolls to the challenges of balancing player skill with character statistics, the session breaks down what works, what doesn't, and why RPG fans are often their own worst enemies.

TAKEAWAY: Attendees will learn how to avoid the most common difficulties and pitfalls developers face when attempting to create and balance RPG mechanics. Specific examples from high-profile titles will be used to ground the lessons in practical terms for easy reference.

INTENDED AUDIENCE: The session is aimed at game and interface designers, animators, gameplay programmers, and anyone else involved in conceiving or adapting mechanics for role-playing games. Developers with a tabletop gaming background or who are involved in cross-platform RPG development should find this session especially helpful.

It's up on GDC Vault now but members only

 

[RK47]

Oh shit. Real-life Anti-Codexian Movement in action.

 

[Terpsichore]

There's a couple of pretty decent modules (darkness over daggerford comes to mind), its also pleasant to look at (UI, icons, spell effects, NWN2 is atrocious in this aspect) but not much else.

The original campaign is dreadfully boring and gloomy but the expansions improve it.

 

[Vaarna_Aarne]

I found 4 LPs of NWN2. Yet not one of NWN1. Is it so boring it inspires no one to try?
.

It's not boring. To be honest, NWN was much better than NWN2.

Why do you lie?

 

[Erebus]

NWN1 OC made NWN2 OC look awesome by comparison. Reading a LP of it would only be slightly less boring than actually playing it.

I'd be more interested in a LP of SoU.

 

[Lesifoere]

Bioware trolled all of us with that one. The scars remain.

What, ADwR? Bioware had nothing to do with it.

 

[Relay]

Playing NWN after BG2, I remember being enthralled with the simple and accessible interface and combat that was a lot less fucking awful than what you see in the Infinity engine games.

What ? Combat is dumbed down and the magic of the variety of ways you have to use to beat different monsters (illithids, dragons, beholders and so on) disappeared in NWN compared to BG2. There can't be any creativity in a diablo inspired game. NWN is awful, not the IE.

Don't play NWN expecting PST. It's a mildly more complex Diablo with DnD rules, and a very good one at that, its main failing being the inability to have more control over your party members.

You don't have "party members". You get one single, retarded AI henchman. That is all.

I love NWN1 and hate NWN2, which had far more irritating characters, an even shitter story and fucked up NWN1s excellent interface for no good reason.

As irritating as you may find them, NWN2 actually had characters, party members who interacted with the story which is more than NWN could say. In many ways, NWN felt like a step backward following BG1's footsteps instead of a step forward toward a better BG2.

 

[Vaarna_Aarne]

Playing NWN after BG2, I remember being enthralled with the simple and accessible interface and combat that was a lot less fucking awful than what you see in the Infinity engine games.

What ? Combat is dumbed down and the magic of the variety of ways you have to use to beat different monsters (illithids, dragons, beholders and so on) disappeared in NWN compared to BG2. There can't be any creativity in a diablo inspired game. NWN is awful, not the IE.

I think it's still fair to point out that the only challenge in BG2 combat was either mages that start with a huge load of contintengy buffs and had powerful spells of their own, or "time limit" matches like mind flayers or beholders where the question was only about killing them quickly and efficiently. Dragons aren't that worth mentioning compared to the others, due to lacking in instant death attacks and spells, since they were really just a matter of having the sufficient gear and spells as they were just big piles of hp to take down while surviving on your own part.

 

[Relay]

Playing NWN after BG2, I remember being enthralled with the simple and accessible interface and combat that was a lot less fucking awful than what you see in the Infinity engine games.

What ? Combat is dumbed down and the magic of the variety of ways you have to use to beat different monsters (illithids, dragons, beholders and so on) disappeared in NWN compared to BG2. There can't be any creativity in a diablo inspired game. NWN is awful, not the IE.

I think it's still fair to point out that the only challenge in BG2 combat was either mages that start with a huge load of contintengy buffs and had powerful spells of their own, or "time limit" matches like mind flayers or beholders where the question was only about killing them quickly and efficiently. Dragons aren't that worth mentioning compared to the others, due to lacking in instant death attacks and spells, since they were really just a matter of having the sufficient gear and spells as they were just big piles of hp to take down while surviving on your own part.

No. BG2 had more variety than most RPGs, including some of the most beloved RPGs of the codex. Fighting creatures who sucked your levels like vampire was far more of an annoyance in BG2 compared to NWN. Kangaxx the lich required knowledge of the ruleset to be beaten, which is far more than can be said of most games who can be played by people who know nothing about the mechanics of the game they're toying with. And dragons were very fun if you tried to beat them with a low level party (you can actually do it), instead of grinding before doing the Firkraag questline.
Sure, all RPGs are easy when you have mastered all corner cases and know everything about the ruleset. All. But how many cRPG truly need you to know about their mechanics ? You can't beat a game like BG2 without taking an interest in the mechanics. But you can beat most cRPG blindly, just by levelling up and playing a straight fighter-like class.

If you can call this bad combat, what about Fallout then ? There is nothing to it beyond having the biggest, meanest gun and repeatedly doing eyeshots as if it was a turn based diablo. Most cRPGs are like that. Compared to them, BG2 does pretty well.

By the way, illithids are not simply "time based" creatures, they also act as a way to make fun of your munchkin character if you have the lowest intelligence stat possible. If you are one of those motherfucking munchkin who optimize to the highest degrees your player character, and you didn't make a wizard, you can't let your character anywhere near an illithid or you will go down FAST. Because the speed at which they kill you depends on your int stat. A low int warrior can't do anything.

 

[Eyeball]

Playing NWN after BG2, I remember being enthralled with the simple and accessible interface and combat that was a lot less fucking awful than what you see in the Infinity engine games.

What ? Combat is dumbed down and the magic of the variety of ways you have to use to beat different monsters (illithids, dragons, beholders and so on) disappeared in NWN compared to BG2. There can't be any creativity in a diablo inspired game. NWN is awful, not the IE.

Dumbed down, perhaps, but actually ENTERTAINING, as opposed to the godawful slog that was wrestling with the IE interface. It killed any and all enjoyment I could have had from those games. NWN, on the other hand, was extremely simple and clear to use, and this made combat, even the repetitive filler combat in some of the longer dungeons, ten times more fun than anything encountered in the IE games. Interface makes or breaks games.

NWN2 NPCs may have had more impact on the story, but they also SUCKED. In the hours I played, I encountered stereotypical drunken dwarf brawler, stereotypical elven druid nature freak girl, stereotypical thieving tiefling with the most insanely annoying voice acting in history and stereotypical redhaired firewitch with a fiery temper.

I slogged through the first half of the game hoping that the quality of writing would pick up and justify the game having such fucking terrible controls, graphics and especially performance on a PC that far exceeded the recommended requirements but no, more run-of-the-mill standard fantasy shit with very little happening that was unpredictable. I have tried heroically to finish this game twice and failed, quitting around the end of the dwarven areas.

NWN1 is a dungeon crawl with a lameass story tacked on, but that's fine. It doesn't really pretend to be anything more, the lootwhoring, fights and levelups are entertaining enough as they are. NWN2 tried to be a full emotional rowlplayin egsbereunz and failed at that, meaning it was a half-baked dungeon crawl and a half-baked storyfag game. This is not fine and the end product was poor as a result.

For an example of how to do this properly, see Dead Money - pretty lame game mechanics redeemed by outstanding storyfaggotry and voiceacting. NWN2 just failed in all categories.

 

[Overweight Manatee]

Dumbed down, perhaps, but actually ENTERTAINING, as opposed to the godawful slog that was wrestling with the IE interface. It killed any and all enjoyment I could have had from those games. NWN, on the other hand, was extremely simple and clear to use, and this made combat, even the repetitive filler combat in some of the longer dungeons, ten times more fun than anything encountered in the IE games. Interface makes or breaks games.

NWN2 NPCs may have had more impact on the story, but they also SUCKED. In the hours I played, I encountered stereotypical drunken dwarf brawler, stereotypical elven druid nature freak girl, stereotypical thieving tiefling with the most insanely annoying voice acting in history and stereotypical redhaired firewitch with a fiery temper.

I slogged through the first half of the game hoping that the quality of writing would pick up and justify the game having such fucking terrible controls, graphics and especially performance on a PC that far exceeded the recommended requirements but no, more run-of-the-mill standard fantasy shit with very little happening that was unpredictable. I have tried heroically to finish this game twice and failed, quitting around the end of the dwarven areas.

NWN1 is a dungeon crawl with a lameass story tacked on, but that's fine. It doesn't really pretend to be anything more, the lootwhoring, fights and levelups are entertaining enough as they are. NWN2 tried to be a full emotional rowlplayin egsbereunz and failed at that, meaning it was a half-baked dungeon crawl and a half-baked storyfag game. This is not fine and the end product was poor as a result.

For an example of how to do this properly, see Dead Money - pretty lame game mechanics redeemed by outstanding storyfaggotry and voiceacting. NWN2 just failed in all categories.

'10fags, delivering on the front.

 

[RK47]

TPB just finished delivering NWN complete edition.
Will generate a char tonight, we'll see how it goes.

 

[Black Cat]

ADWR was almost as boring as the OC.

Your enjoyment of A Dance With Rogues depends entirely on how many of Valine's fetishes and fantasies you can get into.

Also, playing it as a rogue is pretty meh. Playing it as a wizard or a sorceress is quite fun, though.

And if you don't laugh out loud at some of the dialogue options you have nothing of bitch in you. At all.

 

[Clockwork Knight]

To me it was clear that NWN's OC was a showcase and they weren't trying very hard. It was nice not being subject to clusterfucky IE combat, though you still just have to buff instead of think of a strategy. I lost my monk save file and didn't bother trying again for a long time, but I'm gonna try to play it again for the hell of it, with a shitty / bizarre build to make things more interesting.

Following a NWN2 LP now (the one at lparchive.org), it's painful how the guy can't go five paragraphs without showing you tons of cut content. I think Annie explained the whole thing about how they knew it was barely working when released on a post here, a while ago.

 

[Jaesun]

To me it was clear that NWN's OC was a showcase and they weren't trying very hard

To be honest, knowing a bit about the Tool-set it's almost like the OC in NWN and NWN2 were more a look at what this tool-set and engine can do, as opposed to making a good story. The subsequent expansions of course finally showed better storytelling (HotUD and Mask of the Betrayer) as well as showcasing the more of the tool-set.

Still the OC in NWN2 >>>>>>> than the OC in NWN. Gawd it is just fucking terrible.

 

[Multi-headed Cow]

NWN's got a better toolset though. NWN2's allowed greater customization, but it was so much more time consuming and clunky that it was a lot harder for a normal person to make an adventure over a few weekends, which was a real bummer.

As shitty as NWN's campaign was, the amount of modules made for it was cool as hell.

 

[Jaesun]

TPB just finished delivering NWN complete edition.
Will generate a char tonight, we'll see how it goes.

 

[Black Cat]

Please don't tell us how many of Valine's fetishes and fantasies you are into.

Lesi onee-sama is so tsundere.

 

[Lesifoere]

I wanted to post an "at first I was like/then I lol'd" macro here but I couldn't find any appropriately anime-themed one. Consider one put here, Kuroneko-chan.

And now I'm horrified at myself.

 

[Esquilax]

RK, your LP's are fucking brilliant, man. If I may make one suggestion, a person in this thread mentioned a module called a Dance with Rogues; I did some searching, and it sounds like a truly Codexian tale and is ripe material for a Hall of Fame level LP. I've never played NWN1, but I've heard it's boring as shit and it originated BioWare's patented 4 Star Maps formula, so it lacks a certain amount of excitement for me. However... this module sounds hilarious:

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ADanceWithRogues

The back-story has it that there's a war going on between the Kingdom of Betancuria and the nation of Dhorn. The player character is the princess of Betancuria and in the opening scene her family is slaughtered, her mother commits suicide, the player character is raped, and her kingdom is conquered. The ex-princess is adopted by a thieves' guild, and the rest of the story focuses on her learning how to be a rogue, settling into her new life and becoming entangled in a shadow war for control over Betancuria's criminal underworld.

Holy shit, there's even a wiki for the mod. According to it, there's a skill in the game called "Arts of Love":

The Arts of Love, otherwise known as the Princess' "special" or "sexy skill", can be improved at various points in the story by pleasuring others, being pleasured by others, or pleasuring herself

During the course of the story the Princess can engage in the pleasurable act of masturbation to increase her "special skill" in the Arts of Love or just for fun.

Dude, we've got tasteful rape, angst, gritty and mature themes, 5 possible romances (even more than DA2!), a strong female protagonist - you HAVE to fucking LP this. This sounds like an EXTREME version of DAII before DAII was even a thought in Laidlaw`s head. If you LP this, it will be pure HEAVAN. A lot of people have played NWN so they'll know what to expect, and from what I've seen of it, it seems too bland to enjoy a proper LP of. But fuck man, this shit sounds like something else.

 

[RK47]

Well, i am scared of playing female characters. most of my LP with female protagonists are abandoned. I don't know how a female would act when raped.



Ok wtf did I just type.

 

[Lesifoere]

Are you saying you are scared of women?

 

[Clockwork Knight]

Well, i am scared of playing female characters. most of my LP with female protagonists are abandoned. I don't know how a female would act when raped.

Well if she's asian you just keep playing. Otherwise, just think how you'd act if someone forced their dick into your ass.

 

[laclongquan]

Well, i am scared of playing female characters. most of my LP with female protagonists are abandoned. I don't know how a female would act when raped.



Ok wtf did I just type.

It's the key problem of playing females. The obvious solution is playing a lesbian, of course.

Of course, since most games dont have lezzie romance, you get out of doing romance quest. A win win solution!

Sometimes I impressed even myself.

 

[Desmodus Rotundus]

NWN2 OC might be cliche as hell, but at least it's not like chewing a bucketload of earwax that is the NWN OC

This NWN2 module is pretty nice and atmospheric especially in the beginning. http://nwvault.ign.com/View.php?view=Nwn2modulesenglish.Detail&id=411