1eyedking Why do you hate JRPGs?

[deuxhero]

snip

So extremely true, as exemplified excellently by this thread.

True but I think they don't have a reason to be mad, they have millions of Dragon Quest clones and Bioware games to play.

But he's playing a Gamecube. I think the only jRPGs it has are Skies of Arcadia, Baten Kaitos duo, Lost Kingdoms duo, Paper Mario 2 and Tales of Symphonia, Evoluton worlds (which I haven't played) and plus Pokemon Colo and XD if they are counted. 6/10 chance of playing an absolutely fantastic game (and 2/4 of the rest still being good for what they are) is a lot higher than you will get with a wRPG.

 

[Alex]

Brayko

Yeah, the freedom thing is what kills it for me, I think. Ogre Battle is an old JRPG/Strategy game for the Snes. It had a lot of choices. I do mean a lot. There were various optional characters you could convince to join you, various hidden cities that you could find, that could change how the story went, many different character classes you had to find special items to qualify, etc. But still, even though I think the game probably had more C&C than Fallout or many other western games, it still felt somewhat limited. I think the big problem there is that the game seemed to be much more concerned in reacting to how well you played (how good are you at finding the hidden cities? How well can you follow the clues to get the secret characters? Can you train your troops well enough to overcome the obstacles without dragging your reputation through the mud?) than a real role you choose in the game's fiction. The game was all about a specific way of playing it, and depending on how well you did, you got different more or less awesome stories and endings.

But there was little room for the player to deviate from the plan. there was a specific "winning" play-style, and deviating from it meant shooting yourself on the foot. Take for example Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup. This is a very different type of RPG, but I think both it and Crawl could be considered gamist. Now, DC has a smaller scope, much of its story is what you make out of its system, rather than static story like Ogre Battle. But I still think it is fair to say that DC offers many more viable approaches to winning it than Ogre Battle. Ogre Battle has plenty of different choices you can use for making your troops, but the many possible different armies that are still worth making don't compare too well to the different characters you can make in Crawl and how much the game react to this variety.

Still, Ogre Battle has awesome C&C, and I have seen other JRPGs that, while having awful flaws, still had something interesting about them. Star Ocean 2, for example, had an interesting crafting system. It wasn't so much of a system as much of skills which produced random items from certain base materials. But the interesting thing about it is that skillful use of the system changed the quality of available equipment a lot. There was a bit of a downside in that actually figuring it out required a lot of trial and error. But once you did figure it out, you could use it to make much more money and many more interesting items than you would normally have at that point in the game. So, I think there may actually be a lot that western games could learn from some of the JRPGs, but it is important to remember they have a different general philosophy of gameplay, which can make adapting these ideas a lot harder than it could otherwise be.

 

[Excidium]

Nothing against JRPGs in general, I just hate grind and excessive random encounters, so...

 

[Grimlorn]

I hate the anime style. It wasn't always like this. I don't really remember it being this bad on the NES and SNES. But at some point in the 90s I think anime became really popular over there and that's all they do for their art style in games now.

Another thing I think I noticed is there seems to be this cultural divide between Japan and the west where they develop these stories and characters to appeal to just the Japanese. It's why everything has that anime style or something weird that probably only exists in their culture, like some of the weird body language and hair some of their characters have. This was really noticeable in FF13 with the cinematics. I just don't get where they create these characters from. It feels like I'm watching a cartoon with cartoon characters doing weird crap that you never see normal people do. Now that they have the graphical capabilities they are just ruining the games they create with these cinematics and crap.

This will probably sound weird but they should try to create a game that appeals to both the Japanese and the West. Create a more mature game. Get rid of the kid companions and the dumb drama.

One nice thing I will say is the Japanese don't seem to be afraid of challenging games and will probably be the last ones creating those types of games. Maybe the last to do RPGs with stats and turn based combat because I think they like it over there too. Keep in mind I may be wrong. I haven't really played any JRPGs for the past 5+ years. Maybe just FF13 and the Souls games if those really count as JRPGs.

 

[laclongquan]

Anime is synonym to Japan. It's really hard to escape that kind of nationalistic art meme.

Not that they cant. Resident Evil series is one example of such.

Not that "cultural divide between Japan and the west". Make that "cultural divide between East Asia and the west". games that sell well in Japan can sell well in Korea, China, Hong Kong, Taiwan, etc... It's a regional market with huge appetite.

 

[Alex_Steel]

That's a trick question.

The people discussing Fallout 2 like serious business in the west is the same kind of people discussing Final Fantasy 8 as serious business in Japan: The kids, the otakus, and the freaks. No "reasonable adult" would play either of those games, much less discuss them in the detail the geeks and nerds do.

You either are a kid/otaku/freak/nerd/geek that has almost no life except the game or a "reasonable adult" that has nothing to do with the game. That's a false dichotomy.

 

[Sukeban Cho]

@ Grimlorn

It is more of Japan exporting what they think will sell itself instead of the less formulaic games and series. Just like the west they have their AAA stuff, their experimental stuff, their weird artsy stuff, their independent stuff, etc, and the anime style, while popular, is not as omnipresent as the games that reach the west would make it seem.

The problem for most dirty gaijin is that either they never even notice the games exist, as they can't read japanese gaming websites and magazines nor follow the development in developer blogs and forums, or they can't play them because they are released in Japanese and then, at most, localized into Chinese or Korean.

And remember they are kind of isolationist and ethinocentric cultures. While not the norm there's the occasional group of fans trying to translate some japanese independent game getting shot down by the developers because "Either learn japanese or play your shitty gaijin FPS!" or similar crap, and others simply block their websites and forums to all non asian IPs.

China and Korea also make some interesting games every now and then, with very unique art styles and some unusual mechanics or ideas, but they are even more isolationist than Japan about it.



@ Alex_Steel

I am sorry to inform you that while you may like it or dislike it image, reputation, and popularity in social contexts is heavily based around false dichotomies. How rational or irrational it is becomes unimportant when you are not the one labeling yourself, and you never are.

And I was writing the answer from a perspective based on my understanding of my friends and relatives living in east asia, the societies there being far more deeply entrenched in false dichotomies than the west. I should have been clearer about it.

In other words much of Japanese culture, be it traditional or pop, sees the kind of japanese role playing games Codexia believes to be the only kind of japanese role playing games in a way not so different of how Codexia does see them. The difference, however, is that, based on my own experience at least, Japan in general does not consider role playing games to be an interest acceptable for a reasonable adult, and thus the games are actually designed to be childish, adolescent, immature, and lifeless otaku-ish, and in most social circles carry the same stygma of being a total loser as being a total dungeons and dragons nerd carries in the west.

And neither would the west, traditionally at least, accept such pastimes and hobbies as belonging to reasonable adults. Even many of those who consider reasonable adults can enjoy gaming in an involved way would consider any adult who invest so much time and effort in a game as a hardcore role playing game demands while having a career, a job, a spouse, children, relatives, many social and professional responsabilities, his own personal development, and more to worry about or to entertain himself with immature, childish, and in no way "reasonable." That western culture is rapidly losing that may as well be a sign of the decline.

 

[Alex_Steel]

I am sorry to inform you that while you may like it or dislike it image, reputation, and popularity in social contexts is heavily based around false dichotomies. How rational or irrational it is becomes unimportant when you are not the one labeling yourself, and you never are.

A person can be a reasonable adult and enjoy video games(even hard-core RPGs) without ruining the rest of his life. Thinking and telling otherwise, just because society does, means you are submitting to peer pressure and in the end, you may believe it yourself. Keeping the stereotype alive doesn't help anyone. It just keeps us close-minded.

And neither would the west, traditionally at least, accept such pastimes and hobbies as belonging to reasonable adults. Even many of those who consider reasonable adults can enjoy gaming in an involved way would consider any adult who invest so much time and effort in a game as a hardcore role playing game demands while having a career, a job, a spouse, children, relatives, many social and professional responsabilities, his own personal development, and more to worry about or to entertain himself with immature, childish, and in no way "reasonable." That western culture is rapidly losing that may as well be a sign of the decline.

You go under the assumption that a hard-core RPG demands your entire life. There is a journal, there are saves, there is no competition like in MMOs, take your time.
The people that spend their life on a hard-core RPG, ignoring all other aspects of their life, are no different from the people spending their life on football or cars or clothing or whatever.

The only difference is that a video game is called childish by many because in the recent past, video games were for children. But this is changing and for a good reason. A game is a game. If I can be married and enjoy some hours of watching football or making airplane models or watching movies or playing cards, why must video gaming be any different? It's just another hobby.

 

[Vaarna_Aarne]

In other words much of Japanese culture, be it traditional or pop, sees the kind of japanese role playing games Codexia believes to be the only kind of japanese role playing games in a way not so different of how Codexia does see them. The difference, however, is that, based on my own experience at least, Japan in general does not consider role playing games to be an interest acceptable for a reasonable adult, and thus the games are actually designed to be childish, adolescent, immature, and lifeless otaku-ish, and in most social circles carry the same stygma of being a total loser as being a total dungeons and dragons nerd carries in the west.

And neither would the west, traditionally at least, accept such pastimes and hobbies as belonging to reasonable adults. Even many of those who consider reasonable adults can enjoy gaming in an involved way would consider any adult who invest so much time and effort in a game as a hardcore role playing game demands while having a career, a job, a spouse, children, relatives, many social and professional responsabilities, his own personal development, and more to worry about or to entertain himself with immature, childish, and in no way "reasonable." That western culture is rapidly losing that may as well be a sign of the decline.

It actually bears mention that it's the general viewpoint mainstream Japanese have towards almost all sorts of "serious" (= not handheld-in-a-tram type) gaming, anime and manga. There's a lot of "for nerds by nerds" going on in pop culture there, but I guess you could argue there are simply more nerds there. It also connects to the fact that the normal Japanese work environment is a lot more demanding of total devotion and the society as a whole is career-obsessed, so becoming an outcast in traditional society is easy. Same goes to how schools are like there as far as I know. It's also why a lot of the more serious pop culture there is about how fucked up Japanese society is (think Battle Royale, which is really about how life-or-death the education system is there). I guess it also explains the whole high school sub-genre, seeing how it's more of a fantasy about how it could be (seeing how apparently real Japanese high school is likely to be pure hell compared to Western educational systems).

 

[treave]

If I can be married and enjoy some hours of watching football or making airplane models or watching movies or playing cards, why must video gaming be any different? It's just another hobby.

Because there's a sizeable number of people who marry video game characters (in their heads).

 

[Johannes]

goddamn nerds

 

[Grimlorn]

@ Grimlorn

It is more of Japan exporting what they think will sell itself instead of the less formulaic games and series. Just like the west they have their AAA stuff, their experimental stuff, their weird artsy stuff, their independent stuff, etc, and the anime style, while popular, is not as omnipresent as the games that reach the west would make it seem.

The problem for most dirty gaijin is that either they never even notice the games exist, as they can't read japanese gaming websites and magazines nor follow the development in developer blogs and forums, or they can't play them because they are released in Japanese and then, at most, localized into Chinese or Korean.

And remember they are kind of isolationist and ethinocentric cultures. While not the norm there's the occasional group of fans trying to translate some japanese independent game getting shot down by the developers because "Either learn japanese or play your shitty gaijin FPS!" or similar crap, and others simply block their websites and forums to all non asian IPs.

China and Korea also make some interesting games every now and then, with very unique art styles and some unusual mechanics or ideas, but they are even more isolationist than Japan about it.

Yeah but FF13 which would be a AAA game and would be there to appeal to everyone had all the Japanese centric stuff. You could see it in the cinematics. They reminded you of their anime shows. If anime style isn't as popular in Japan in all of their games, then why does it seem like it's the only thing that makes it here? They obviously think it appeals to westerners or something. I don't see why they would keep all their good games over there and just export a bunch of anime styles shit if that wasn't their best selling shit over there.

 

[HumanTotemPole]

For me, its one of those intangible cultural things. JRPGs just don't appeal to me and neither does modern Japanese culture in a wider sense (though I've always found their history interesting). Incidentally I hate japanophile culture and all the shite that it entails as well. It's like listening to a white person play blues music.

The Rance and other hRPG LPs on here are still hilarious though.

 

[Machocruz]

Anime is synonym to Japan. It's really hard to escape that kind of nationalistic art meme.

Not that they cant. Resident Evil series is one example of such.

Capcom is often good about this. RE, Lost Planet, Devil May Cry, Street Fighter 2. You can still they're from Japan, and the stories are still dross, but it's not offensive to me. Actually, the character models look far better than the vast majority of western character models. It's like the west forgot what things like heroic proportions are without getting ridiculous like Gears of War or something.

Since JRPGs are aimed at teenagers over there, they use art styles common in many youth oriented and high school based anime. You know the kind. Just look at any Tales Of game, or .hack, or shows like El-Hazard. I guess the crowd that watches Berserk or Jin Roh over there don't play RPGs.

 

[funkadelik]

Just Google "anime" and look at the pictures. For fuck sakes they all look like the same person drew them. It's all that terrible style, I don't even know how to describe it. Of course there are some great JRPGs but I cannot get past some of the ones where everyone has wings or stupid tails or the love interests are 8 years old. Beyond reprehensible brothers, beyond.

I believe this is a good culminating picture of why I can't stand most Japanese games in general.

 

[FeelTheRads]

But.. they all have different hair colors???? And they wear sci-fi and medieval mix&match clothes! That's art direction!

Probably some weaboo fags around here can tell where each one of those comes from.

 

[Machocruz]

I hate the anime style. It wasn't always like this. I don't really remember it being this bad on the NES and SNES. But at some point in the 90s I think anime became really popular over there and that's all they do for their art style in games now.

It wasn't that bad those days. Who was creating characters manlier than the Contra Dudes, Simon Belmont, Double Dragon dudes, Bayou Billy, Bad Dudes, Haggar, etc? Fucking Kenshiro! Even the cutsier games, like Mega Man, Mario 2, Legacy of the Wizard, had more interesting style than the high school anime bullshit you see so much today.

Calling something "anime" is too general, though. I wouldn't put the stuff people are complaining about on the same level as Berserk, Ninja Scroll, Lodoss War, Vampire Hunter D, Macross, Gunbuster, Akira, Fist of the North Star, JoJo's, etc. These are the things that turned western heads in the 80s and 90s. Japan often had the knack for taking western genres and executing them in a way that made them cooler than anything the west was doing in video games or comics. Even now, look at Dragon's Dogma or Dark Souls. The character models, animation, armor, monster design are far better looking and stylish than any western RPG I've seen recently. The guy in Yakuza can just stand there and still send out more 'badass' vibes than try-too-hard shit like Gears or Bulletstorm.

But this is about JRPGs, and besides DS and DD, I haven't seen one worth my time since FFXII.

 

[Transgressive Grenadier]

I was never into cricket (too boring) or rugby (too vulgar) so what am I supposed to do with my free time?

While away the hours with Whist and Croquet?

Collect newts and ferns?

 

[HumanTotemPole]

rugby (too vulgar)

Completely off topic, but what's not to love? Sublime skills, technical intricacy and grievous bodily harm all in one heady cocktail. Great to watch and to play and with a heavy drinking culture attached too. Greatest sport in the world as far as I'm concerned.

But that's probably because its in the blood as my family sport. And I've watched it all my life, grew up in a rugby province of Ireland, was playing mini rugby before I reached double figures, went to a rugby school and currently study in a rugby part of England.

Maybe some folk love jRPGs and Japanese culture for similar reasons, in that those sorts of things have been a constant influence throughout their life.

 

[Sukeban Cho]

@ Grimlorn

If anime style isn't as popular in Japan in all of their games, then why does it seem like it's the only thing that makes it here? They obviously think it appeals to westerners or something. I don't see why they would keep all their good games over there and just export a bunch of anime styles shit if that wasn't their best selling shit over there.

Are, for example, the Fatal Frame games anime ones? The silent hill ones, the Yakuza ones, the DMC ones, the way of the samurai ones, the Deception ones? Is romance of the three kingdoms an anime game? What about Patapon, the Calling, or Theresia? Etc.

It just happens there's a pretty noticeable correlation between "games that are anime-ish" and "japanese role playing games."



@ Vaarna Aarne

It actually bears mention that it's the general viewpoint mainstream Japanese have towards almost all sorts of "serious" (= not handheld-in-a-tram type) gaming, anime and manga.

In theory it is, yes, but in my understanding a thirty years old guy or gal pouring eight hours total in playing a horror game is :shrug:, standard deviation kind of thing, but a guy or gal pouring fifty hours or more in a role playing game is not :shrug: even if they did pour the same amount of weekly time on it. Just like them watching some anime is :shrug: but watching other is :teh horror:.

I don't really understand WHY does it happen like that, though. There's only so far I can go while being an outsider experiencing most of it through second hand accounts.

There's a lot of "for nerds by nerds" going on in pop culture there, but I guess you could argue there are simply more nerds there. It also connects to the fact that the normal Japanese work environment is a lot more demanding of total devotion and the society as a whole is career-obsessed, so becoming an outcast in traditional society is easy.

Indeed. Japanese social expectations and social pressure seem to force people who would fall somewhere in between upstanding member of society and deviant delinquent into picking a side as they are going to be acted upon like deviant delinquent the moment they stray outside what is allowed to an upstanding member of society, and the way everything works seems to be aimed at increasing and magnifying that pressure.

It has the side effect of keeping those who would only go so far under control and of making those who don't want to fall through the cracks work really hard, though.



@ Alex Steel

A person can be a reasonable adult and enjoy video games(even hard-core RPGs) without ruining the rest of his life. Thinking and telling otherwise, just because society does, means you are submitting to peer pressure and in the end, you may believe it yourself. Keeping the stereotype alive doesn't help anyone. It just keeps us close-minded.

Sure. But then the same could be said about otaku creeps yet you weren't defending them like you are defending you. Keeping the stereotype alive, etc.

That aside, we exist in a social context. If society at large believes something about you then it becomes pretty much real, as society is the one deciding what options and oportunities you have available. Social context will change over time, but until it does change the present state is as real as the laws of physics are.

You go under the assumption that a hard-core RPG demands your entire life. There is a journal, there are saves, there is no competition like in MMOs, take your time.

Which is not the point.

 

[Alex_Steel]

Sure. But then the same could be said about otaku creeps yet you weren't defending them like you are defending you. Keeping the stereotype alive, etc.

Probably. To be honest, I have nothing to say about the Japanese situation because I have no idea what happens there.

That aside, we exist in a social context. If society at large believes something about you then it becomes pretty much real, as society is the one deciding what options and oportunities you have available. Social context will change over time, but until it does change the present state is as real as the laws of physics are.

I certainly agree.

Which is not the point.

What confused me is that what you had initially written, seemed like your opinion. But now that I read your following posts, I think that the quote below was more like what the public thinks and not you, right?

That's a trick question.

The people discussing Fallout 2 like serious business in the west is the same kind of people discussing Final Fantasy 8 as serious business in Japan: The kids, the otakus, and the freaks. No "reasonable adult" would play either of those games, much less discuss them in the detail the geeks and nerds do.

 

[LundB]

Japan in general does not consider role playing games to be an interest acceptable for a reasonable adult, and thus the games are actually designed to be childish, adolescent, immature, and lifeless otaku-ish, and in most social circles carry the same stygma of being a total loser as being a total dungeons and dragons nerd carries in the west.

It's always amusing to see weeaboos visiting Japan, with the uninformed belief that 'everyone in Japan will like me and know about all the shitty animus I watch!', gradually come to this crushing realisation.

 

[Damned Registrations]

I love me some space marines!

Western equivalent:

 

[joeydohn]

Just Google "anime" and look at the pictures. For fuck sakes they all look like the same person drew them. It's all that terrible style, I don't even know how to describe it. Of course there are some great JRPGs but I cannot get past some of the ones where everyone has wings or stupid tails or the love interests are 8 years old. Beyond reprehensible brothers, beyond.

I believe this is a good culminating picture of why I can't stand most Japanese games in general.

There's a theory or something about people noticing the more subtle differences in faces they're familiar with, this is where the 'all of x foreign race look the look the same' thing comes from.

I love me some space marines!

Western equivalent: View attachment 397

I don't think it applies this this though since that is the same face with different recognizable features planted on, I kind of doubt that all those characters look like that in their source material especially as many characters seem to be brand that is used by different artists.

 

[Grimlorn]

@ Grimlorn

If anime style isn't as popular in Japan in all of their games, then why does it seem like it's the only thing that makes it here? They obviously think it appeals to westerners or something. I don't see why they would keep all their good games over there and just export a bunch of anime styles shit if that wasn't their best selling shit over there.

Are, for example, the Fatal Frame games anime ones? The silent hill ones, the Yakuza ones, the DMC ones, the way of the samurai ones, the Deception ones? Is romance of the three kingdoms an anime game? What about Patapon, the Calling, or Theresia? Etc.

It just happens there's a pretty noticeable correlation between "games that are anime-ish" and "japanese role playing games."

This thread is about JRPGs. I'm not implying that all Japanese games are anime like. I didn't know that over there RPGs were mainly for kids and not adults. And adults who play RPGs are looked down upon.

When you were talking about Japan having their different types of games. Their mainstream, their experimental, indie, etc, I thought you were referring to RPGs and implying their best RPGs don't make it outside of Japan.