What went wrong with Shadowrun? 1up investigates

[Elwro]

To the forum at large, is it possible to incorporate RPG character advancement in an enclosed environment, especially one in which real time and game world time are roughly equal?

Hm, I think e.g. Bloodlines worked like that - there were neither any "30 days pass" events nor "the journey took 37 hours" messages, and yet due to XPs you transformed from a weakling to a potent vampire in just a few nights. I never heard a single complaint about it, I guess it's one of the things players are willing to turn a blind eye to.

 

[AnalogKid]

Grand Theft Rigger: Seattle. The new gameplay mechanic layered on top of existing GTA gameplay would be team building/coordination.

To the forum at large, is it possible to incorporate RPG character advancement in an enclosed environment, especially one in which real time and game world time are roughly equal?

This is normally done via a number of trite cliches along the lines of amnesia or power-strippage, where you're "rediscovering" your latent talents, rather than actually growing to new heights. For the player, it's the same thing but with a justification that can make sense, even if it's overused.

 

[errorcode]

Shadowrun: Lockdown - The player is one of the roughly hundred thousand folks trapped in the Renraku Arcology when it's central AI decides to lockdown and start playing god. I'd design it as an RPG/survival horror game, with the player creating their character and playing an intro mission befitting their class that explains why they're in the Arcology, then jumping ahead to them waking up in one of the hundreds of labs that the AI has set up to do experiments on the trapped populace.

To follow up on your idea with a slight tangent, how would you handle character advancement. I'm assuming by your description of the scenario and the survival horror moniker that game time would elapse in more or less real time and the total game world time that would elapse over the course of the game would be at most a few days. In such a situation how would you handle RPG style character advancement?
From what I have seen RPG lite systems set in a restricted environment such as the System/Bioshock series have relied on very accelerated character development through cybermodules/plasmids, both being a "magical" speed character advancement speed. In an even slightly more realistic setting like Shadowrun this sort of advancement would be difficult to pull off unless we resort to "super cybernetic upgrades the AI was secretly developing", but that still leaves non-cyber users out of the loop.

To the forum at large, is it possible to incorporate RPG character advancement in an enclosed environment, especially one in which real time and game world time are roughly equal?

good question

I'd go with the standard Shadowrun advancement system of increasing your character's abilities by spending karma points, which the player could accrue through meeting primary objectives, secondary/hidden objectives, and NPC interactions.

The Lock-down lasted months, months that the PC is basically trapped in a nightmarish war zone. A basically rookie runner having an accelerated learning curve in there would make sense.

 

[Psycroptic]

I think that Vista/360 Shadowrun could best be compared to X-Com Enforcer. Instead of improving the game that everyone wanted, a completely new game was created in the wrong genre and then given the original game's name. It's little more than a franchise grab.

What's really pitiful is that the Genesis Shadowrun completely stomps a mudhole in the Direct-X 10 version despite this:

Genesis CPU: 6.7 Mhz.
Genesis RAM: 64 KB.
Cartridge Storage: < 4 MB

So despite having:

1000 times more storage (on DVD)
20,000 to 30,000 times the capacity in RAM (and at much higher speeds)
CPU that's probably 600 times or so (?) more powerful.. probably more

...the designers couldn't even approach the gameplay of the original. I'd call that an absolute failure. Mass suicide of all responsible is the only way to atone.

 

[Kingston]

(unless Gaider swings the might of Bioware at it *nudge* *nudge*)

The might of Bioware is not mine to swing -- trust me, or it would already have been done. I have a deep, dark and abiding love for Shadowrun. I swear, if some company called me up and said "we have a Shadowrun RPG we'd love to hire you to work on!" it would be sorely, sorely tempting.

But really, what are the odds? There's a better chance of the Fallout license being resurrected again.

Oh, wait...

Um... I meant that there's a better chance of the X-Com license being resurrected again.

...

...

Damn.

Enslaving nations with necromancy...

 

[DarkSign]

Pardon me for blaspheming but Shadowrun would be perfect for the MMO genre

As the resident MMO lubber, I concur. And it looks like StrayBullet Games (you remember, the guys who broke away from Shadowbane?) is making just that. The concept art for their new project shows a flora-covered skyscraper as well as a metal-enhanced lizard mount.

 

[Dgaider]

Enslaving nations with necromancy...

And? What does that have to do with what I said? Or is that something you've decided you'll just bring up at random intervals, as a substitute for an actual, intelligent comment?

 

[Jasede]

Mister Gaider, it's very hard not to suck your cock even when one may not like every game you made. You're one of the best posters on the Codex. Good luck with that new game, Dragon's Age or whatever it is called.

*ducks the impeding flamestorm*

On semi-derail: Shadowrun MMORPG sounds like an excellent idea.

 

[Saxon1974]

They got a great license with a huge fanbase and a very well known name. Instead of doing the obviously smart thing they went and fucked it up with a decidedly mediocre shooter. I'm glad it bombed, just out of principle.

I agree. Its rather odd that the campaign setting is based on an RPG world and its fan base is RPG fans, yet they made it a FPS. I ingored it from the time I heard it would be a FPS.

 

[Lumpy]

Enslaving nations with necromancy...

And? What does that have to do with what I said? Or is that something you've decided you'll just bring up at random intervals, as a substitute for an actual, intelligent comment?

Kingston is just a retard who likes to criticize Bioware and Bethesda, a noble goal otherwise, by using not so witty comments and illogical jabs.

 

[Kingston]

That's me. Durr.

Edit: I don't actually remember criticizing Bioware all that much, except on NWN and some of the over the top aspects of ME. I hold Baldur's Gate 1 and 2 as some of my favourite games, and KOTOR was enjoyable aswell. But hey Lumpy, no need to base your shit on anything. As for the necromancer thing, I figured ressurection = necromancy = silly pun. I guess I fall into the lulz crowd now.

 

[elander_]

Is there such thing as a good MMO rpg?

 

[Kingston]

Ultima Online is the best one I've played, by which I mean the old hardcore pre-let'sbenicetoeveryone UO. The control the players had over the world allowed for pretty neat outcomes. The players were both the great and shitty part: you've got the intelligent players and you've got the retards that make everything annoying with their leet speak... and something in-between. The stuff I've seen people pull off in UO though is unparallel to any other MMO. In which other game could you polymorph yourself into an ogre and get your friend to attack you so that all the good (as in lawful good, not skill) players charge in only to see you transform back into the mage that you are and pwn everyone. Where else can you trade a house deed for money and hire a thief to wait outside to steal it back. The intelligence you could use on the unwilling, the deception, that's what made UO fucking cool. I remember Roshambo telling that he had a mule in every guild in his server and with one command he could get them all to do his bidding (such as assasinate the guild leader). That's what I want to see.

 

[Dgaider]

I figured ressurection = necromancy = silly pun. I guess I fall into the lulz crowd now.

Wow, that's a pretty tenuous connection... but okay, I get it.

I retract my snark.

And I'll try not to think about the fellatio comment someone else posted. While I get that it's supposed to be complimentary and all, there are some things that are best left unsaid ya know?

Is there such thing as a good MMO rpg?

Personally I think the most frustrating part of MMO's is that you get this glimpse of something that could be a lot of fun, yet has been turned into some kind of amusement park attraction instead. Everyone gets on the same rides, has the same experience in minute variations as they level up and everyone pretends that the entire thing isn't predicated on addictive reward patterns.

EVE Online is one of the few that take a different route -- it's just so merciless so as to be almost inaccessible (in my opinion, anyhow). I almost wonder if some middle route might not be really fun, yet everyone is so locked into the EQ/WoW model of MMO that I doubt we're going to find out anytime soon. It will take some MMO that's really different to have a breakthrough and find the audience out there that actually wants something else to prove that such an audience actually exists, sadly, but such is how the industry works.

 

[Deleted member 7219]

Bioware does love a good tease. This whole 'Lucasarts/Bioware' super secret project.... whats the deal with that David? Don't worry I won't tell anyone....

 

[Kingston]

And I'll try not to think about the fellatio comment someone else posted. While I get that it's supposed to be complimentary and all, there are some things that are best left unsaid ya know?

Oh don't worry, he's only a self-proclaimed homosexual furry.

Personally I think the most frustrating part of MMO's is that you get this glimpse of something that could be a lot of fun, yet has been turned into some kind of amusement park attraction instead. Everyone gets on the same rides, has the same experience in minute variations as they level up and everyone pretends that the entire thing isn't predicated on addictive reward patterns.

I'm inclined to agree. Nobody wants to hear that someone else is having more fun in their game than they themselves are. Bad for sales, so everyone ends up playing basically the same role. It's hard to balance the fun otherwise. Like in UO, the pkers' where having the time of their life and newbies weren't. So UO's pk got fucked up the ass so much that only a select few ended up playing that way. Everyone else ends up playing the good hero.

Darkfall is looking good though.

Funny thing about addictive reward patterns. I tried out the Hellgate: London demo the other day. I found the game to be pretty damn shitty and yet very addicting. The whole time I was pondering how they fucked up this feature and that feature and yet at the same time I was constantly looking for phatter and phatter lewt and waiting for that level up. I couldn't decide if I was having fun. It was just a strange hypnotic state. Do we acknowledge that its all just playing into our addictive brainpattern and yet don't care? Then I remembered Exitium's face and quit the game.

 

[The_Pope]

This game actually irritated me more because of its failings as an FPS than the franchise abuse. If you want fair cross platform, make some genre where twitchy, precise input isn't needed. Some kind of game where your characters skills and attributes determine your effectiveness rather than your ability as a player. Perhaps containing some kind of experience points, which represent your character learning new abilities as the game progresses. In a game like that, PC and Xbox players could go and stab foozles together without having to cripple mouse control.

If only such a genre existed.

 

[errorcode]

I think there can be a good, if not great, MMORPG out there. As the technology grows and the market broadens due to the suits willing to take bigger and bigger chances on outside the box ideas (to escape the WOW factor), I'd say that we'll see a true MMORPG sometime soon.

I want to think that my project is helping with that push. We've really aimed to create a setting that you want to be in character for. It's not a big step, but I think it's critical in moving towards a true mmorpg.

I believe that, done right, a Shadowrun MMO could do that too. forming groups, earning the trust of the people around you, betrayal, runner rivalries - these translate directly into MMO metagame aspects. If the UI was handled correctly then the common game terminologies would coincide with the in-game fiction, allowing players to easily be in character without even trying.

If a majority of the players are maintaining the game fiction, or are at least not breaking it with metadialog that in no way fits the setting, then it helps reinforce itself. Players seeing other, more veteran, players using the fiction's terminology are then more likely to use it as well. A self-reinforcing social rule that creates a more RP friendly environment without anyone having to go all Drama Club. At least, that's my theory.

As the resident MMO lubber, I concur. And it looks like StrayBullet Games (you remember, the guys who broke away from Shadowbane?) is making just that. The concept art for their new project shows a flora-covered skyscraper as well as a metal-enhanced lizard mount.

SBG isn't doing Shadowrun. They're working on an original IP.

 

[Lurkar]

Shadowrun was destined to fail. The type of game that Shadowrun would be GOOD at implimenting isn't the type of game that's trendy. And as others have said, when you just ignore the IP completely - and when that's supposed to be your big draw - there's problems.

That said, on the note of MMORPGs, UO wasn't a good experience because it was a good MMO, it was the opposite . UO was a horrendously shitty MMORPG, but it was so bad that a good community could make it shine. Unfortunately, most MMORPGs nowadays hold standfast to the very tightly railed Everquest model.

 

[DarkSign]

It will take some MMO that's really different to have a breakthrough and find the audience out there that actually wants something else to prove that such an audience actually exists, sadly, but such is how the industry works.

Leave that to me. You'll be surprised at what can be done :wink:

 

[obediah]

I'd really love to get on a soap box and preach on about how this shows an IP must be respected and you can't rape a PNP RPG into a shit FPS and expect to make money.

But, PNP nerd rage has nothing to do with Shadowrun bombing. Vista-only, fucked up mechanics on PC and 360 to allow a single player base, no SP campaign, Pay-for-play PC MP, and lack of brand recognition (I doubt too many counter strike or halo nerds spend a lot of time playing PNP Shadowrun).

I do like the irony that it did so poorly that they might have done better with a real Shadowrun RPG. Actually, I guess it's depressing that sales for an FPS bomb are on par for a real RPG hit.

 

[Spectacle]

When I first heard that they were making a Shadowrun FPS I was very exicted, the action packed future of Shadowrun would lend itself perfectly to a plot heavy FPS like Half-life or FEAR. Then when I learned it would be counterstrike with magic i lost any hope that it would be an interesting Shadowrun game, but might still be a decent game in it's own right. Then they announced cross platform play, and I lost any hope that it would be even remotely fun.

I have a feeling the game that became "shadowrun" had already been in development for a while as an original game before some suit realized MS games was sitting on the Shadowrun license, and then told the developers: "Make your game fit this setting, then we'll sell loads to the fans. And while you're at it, make it so xbox and PC players can play against each other, to show off our new windows live service"

It's quite amazing that they managed to fuck up the license so badly. Virtually any other game concept would have made a better Shadowrun game.

 

[fastjack]

re

i love shadowrun (ever since first renting the snes so many years ago which led to playing pnp with my brothers a lot as a kid)

i also love the new news posters for bringing me shadowrun news id have never seen.

id like to throw my hat in with the 'upgraded genesis shadowrun' crowd as for what my dream game would be.

also for the love of god could someone make shadowrun forum avatars!?!? it would be nice is all.

 

[DarkSign]

So what's being said is...

if someone *cough BioWare* were to make an update of the genesis shadowrun, but not calling it shadowrun...they might have a hit on their hands.

just sayin...

 

[elander_]

I'd really love to get on a soap box and preach on about how this shows an IP must be respected and you can't rape a PNP RPG into a shit FPS and expect to make money.

But, PNP nerd rage has nothing to do with Shadowrun bombing. Vista-only, fucked up mechanics on PC and 360 to allow a single player base, no SP campaign, Pay-for-play PC MP, and lack of brand recognition (I doubt too many counter strike or halo nerds spend a lot of time playing PNP Shadowrun).

I do like the irony that it did so poorly that they might have done better with a real Shadowrun RPG. Actually, I guess it's depressing that sales for an FPS bomb are on par for a real RPG hit.

You missed point. Nobody denies that a Shadowrun based FPS would be cool, if it was well executed. But what would such game bring to the FPS or Multiplayer scenario besides being just another FPS with elfs? A Shadowrun FPS has nothing new to offer and that's why it has bombed.

Shadowrun is only interesting in a RPG where we free to exercise our moral choices with role-playable quests and an amoral setting. This is Shadowrun and not just a bunch of concept art and cute stories.