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What about "Role-playing" actually matters in a CR

Surf Solar

cannot into womynz
Joined
Jan 8, 2011
Messages
8,831
Re: What about "Role-playing" actually matters in

Vault Dweller said:
Giauz Ragnacock said:
So, why should we (as the game designers feel we should) feel the need to be some other character than ourselves...
As exciting as it is to play yourself in a role-playing game, eventually you may feel the need to try other characters (if only to demonstrate the sheer fucking awesomness of yourself as a character compared to any other), in which case, setting certain guidelines might be very beneficial, assuming, of course, that a game provides enough options to make role-playing viable.

This.

Also, nice article I always link to when this topic surfaces: http://gametheorem.blogspot.com/2008/02/what-is-rp.html
 
Self-Ejected

Excidium

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For me, role-playing is the way of saying thanks to the GM.

"Ok, you spent many nights drawing maps, collecting pictures, writing a storyline and creating NPCs, I'll give you a protagonist to create an interesting narrative together."

I think RP is very fun and rewarding (quite literally, as many systems encourage XP rewards for good RP) in P&P games, but in CRPGs at least for me it's just a way of making a coherent character, developing him in a way that "make sense" for what I'm playing. I think it's fun too and contributes to replayability.

But it can easily turn into what the codex classifies as "larping", that is, a simple "make believe" with the computer that doesn't have any effect in the game, like that famous Oblivion roleplaying guide. Larping is the bane of CRPGs, people compensating lack of content and horrible design with their imaginashun.
 

sea

inXile Entertainment
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Messages
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The way I think about it is, an RPG, or more specifically a CRPG, is effectively a self-contained alternate world governed by a universal ruleset, whose goal is, on a broad level, there to explain the rules of reality in an abstract and easy-to-understand fashion that we can relate to our own perceptions of the world. That's a really overwrought way of saying "this game has turn-based combat and stats because it's an easy way to quantify and express what are extremely complex temporal, spatial, physical and cognitive relationships."

The role-playing we do in CRPGs is something that should be, at some level, reinforced by the ruleset which governs the world. Whether that's something as simple as requiring a Charisma of X to persuade Y, or more intense patterns of interaction (individual NPCs remembering prior events and responding to them in believable ways), my self-assigned role exists within the game as a collection of statistics, variables and choices - with the reasoning for all those decisions sitting at the other end of the computer screen. In a sense you can think of the mechanics as the "game" and the player as the "imagination" draped over top. We can have fun with a game on a purely mechanical level, and indeed it's arguably necessary to enjoy a game on any more than superficial levels... but it's the player's imagination, as recursively structured by and influencing the game underneath, that provides much of the vibrance that we ascribe to the CRPG genre.

Perhaps it's just me, but that's why I've never been able to fully enjoy CRPGs that rely entirely on mechanics to carry them forward - I can appreciate a game whose mechanics are solid and well-designed, but I need an interesting layer on top of it, something that stimulates my own creativity and responds to it, in order to have fun and to keep me interested and engaged for the long haul. On a broader level I think this is true of all videogames, but CRPGs are one of the few genres that are more closely centred around this dynamic. A shooter, for instance, can possess both these qualities, but a shooter also doesn't need a great story, characters or visual design to capture the imagination and the senses - those things are nice to have, but they aren't a core aspect of my enjoyment of the game, only icing on the cake, as it were. With a CRPG, my influence over the game world, illusory though it may be, utterly demands that I be emotionally and intellectually invested.

Ultimately, the best CRPGs shouldn't rely on self-imposed roles and acting - I shouldn't be sitting there thinking "oh, I've got to eat now, because it's dinner-time in the game and my character should probably have food", or "well, my character is a smooth talker, so I should use diplomacy to get through this situation", at least not explicitly. Role-playing without the numbers, the mechanics behind it, is empty and unfulfilling. The best CRPGs are the ones which provide all the incentive you need to adhere to a role, to inspire you to aspire to it - entirely through the mechanics they provide, and in a way that anticipates the player's response to continue feeding him or her.
 

Giauz Ragnacock

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Messages
502
Well shit Exidium! I guess that kinda destroys the understanding I thought I had come to in my last post. Uh, this is getting vague. The guy before you's linked article was pretty impressive but got a little creepy obsessive about making a "living" character. I don't know, I guess I am more of a character as plot-device person rather than a fictional biographer/simulator.

Though, after a finishing KOTOR for the first time back in 2007, I was so crazy hopped up on it that I immagined a TV series based on the game erring on Cartoon Network's Toonami (Saturday nights used to be so much better. Even with Netflix it still doesn't feel as neat as having the Toonami characters and announcer show up before shows, at breaks, and during commercials). I can still see the neat commercial with the Toonami announcer saying, "Newly apprenticed Jedi, Naver H'Trad, and crew knew taking on Darth Malak's Sith empire was going to be rough. In thier search for the all-powerfull Star Forge, they may have bit off more than they could chew. Luckilly, Naver H'Trad may not be just any ordinary Jedi."

That would have been the coolest thing possible for me at the time, but reality fails. :(
 

MMXI

Arcane
Joined
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Messages
2,196
sea said:
The way I think about it is, an RPG, or more specifically a CRPG, is effectively a self-contained alternate world governed by a universal ruleset, whose goal is, on a broad level, there to explain the rules of reality in an abstract and easy-to-understand fashion that we can relate to our own perceptions of the world. That's a really overwrought way of saying "this game has turn-based combat and stats because it's an easy way to quantify and express what are extremely complex temporal, spatial, physical and cognitive relationships."

The role-playing we do in CRPGs is something that should be, at some level, reinforced by the ruleset which governs the world. Whether that's something as simple as requiring a Charisma of X to persuade Y, or more intense patterns of interaction (individual NPCs remembering prior events and responding to them in believable ways), my self-assigned role exists within the game as a collection of statistics, variables and choices - with the reasoning for all those decisions sitting at the other end of the computer screen. In a sense you can think of the mechanics as the "game" and the player as the "imagination" draped over top. We can have fun with a game on a purely mechanical level, and indeed it's arguably necessary to enjoy a game on any more than superficial levels... but it's the player's imagination, as recursively structured by and influencing the game underneath, that provides much of the vibrance that we ascribe to the CRPG genre.

Perhaps it's just me, but that's why I've never been able to fully enjoy CRPGs that rely entirely on mechanics to carry them forward - I can appreciate a game whose mechanics are solid and well-designed, but I need an interesting layer on top of it, something that stimulates my own creativity and responds to it, in order to have fun and to keep me interested and engaged for the long haul. On a broader level I think this is true of all videogames, but CRPGs are one of the few genres that are more closely centred around this dynamic. A shooter, for instance, can possess both these qualities, but a shooter also doesn't need a great story, characters or visual design to capture the imagination and the senses - those things are nice to have, but they aren't a core aspect of my enjoyment of the game, only icing on the cake, as it were. With a CRPG, my influence over the game world, illusory though it may be, utterly demands that I be emotionally and intellectually invested.

Ultimately, the best CRPGs shouldn't rely on self-imposed roles and acting - I shouldn't be sitting there thinking "oh, I've got to eat now, because it's dinner-time in the game and my character should probably have food", or "well, my character is a smooth talker, so I should use diplomacy to get through this situation", at least not explicitly. Role-playing without the numbers, the mechanics behind it, is empty and unfulfilling. The best CRPGs are the ones which provide all the incentive you need to adhere to a role, to inspire you to aspire to it - entirely through the mechanics they provide, and in a way that anticipates the player's response to continue feeding him or her.
:salute:

This. But without the insinuation that you need a great story, characters or visual design in an RPG.
 

sea

inXile Entertainment
Developer
Joined
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Messages
5,698
Those were just examples of how an RPG can inspire the imagination. I didn't mean to imply that's what separates "good RPGs" from "great RPGs"; I just meant to state that something like Planescape: Torment is going to stick with me and inspire me a lot more than Knights of the Chalice and its barebones design. Even so, different strokes for different folks.
 

MMXI

Arcane
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Messages
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sea said:
Those were just examples of how an RPG can inspire the imagination. I didn't mean to imply that's what separates "good RPGs" from "great RPGs"; I just meant to state that something like Planescape: Torment is going to stick with me and inspire me a lot more than Knights of the Chalice and its barebones design. Even so, different strokes for different folks.
True. I prefer Knights of the Chalice myself.
 

mondblut

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Ingrija
Alex_Steel said:
Role playing has no relevance to a Rocket Propelled Grenade. What else could RPG mean in this case?

Your wit and penchant for brand new, hitherto unknown memes and jokes are awe inspiring.

Joined: 07 Jul 2011

Then again, it might actually sound fresh and new to you :roll:
 

Alex_Steel

Arcane
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Darn! You got me! I thank the Gods because you showed me the error of my ways. Now I know how to be witty. I will use the brand new meme of making fun of another guy based on his joined date of the forum/army/community/whatever. Dumbass soldiers use it since the 50s so it must be the definition of wit.

So, you say roleplaying has no relevance to roleplaying games. I guess neither your computer gave a fuck about the stupidness of your statement, right?

You need a better computer, man.
 

mondblut

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Alex_Steel said:
So, you say roleplaying has no relevance to roleplaying games.

Bingo, Sherlock.

Were you as surprised the day you found out heavy metal music has no relation neither to chemistry nor to heavy industry?
 
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Alex, what we play on our computers are crpgs, not rpgs. Meaning, adaptations of the rpg experience (tm) to a computer game. Roleplaying a character in an ambient as limited as a videogame means just choosing which of the preset options you like best (i.e, not actually roleplaying)

 

mondblut

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Clockwork Knight said:
61BA2H6CR6L._SL500_AA300_.jpg
256px-Planescape-torment-box.jpg

Conceptually the same

Fixed the somewhat misleading bias. For all the abomination DA2 is, it being not putting on my robe and wizard hat well enough is really the least of its concerns. If anything, Bioware works damn hard ensuring their action-adventures are "roleplaying" first and RPGs last.
 

mondblut

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How's that a nuke? Everyone with half a brain realizes the whole Bioware catalogue are direct descendants of BG and PST. All epic drama with a choose-your-hypertext-link minigame and a shitty RTS or shooter for a medium. Hey, if MCA would have deigned to pen a couple of lines for DA2, half of you would anally rape yourselves with its disks praying it would get you pregnant.

Just look at New Vegas :smug:
 

Giauz Ragnacock

Scholar
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Messages
502
Crispy: Just to get the term straight, a blober is when the entire party's perspective is merged into one, ala Wizardry I, right?

Anyway, just thinking lately, I wanted to pose a question: If you could make a CRPG with all previous features you have enjoyed with tweaks to make them better executed/less buggy and have enough time to write up all the dialog options and branching paths you think the game should have, would you actually want to play your dream CRPG anymore?

My personal answer would be, no. I can dream all I want about a game that gets me back into playing obsessively like I used to with KOTOR I & II, Jade Empire, Fable: The Lost Chapters, (more recently) a translated NES rom of Final Fantasy 3, (some non-CRPGs, and yes I know FF3 doesn't have the dialogue options, super deep stat/skill customization, and branching game segments like some of the better computer RPGs, but a few of the plot elements, world design, and neat ways of using classes totally hooked me a few months ago) New Super Mario Bros. Wii, and Metroid Prime (Metroid Prime Trilogy; didn't like the game that much on Game Cube, but I stand by MPT's FPS system as the best and most natural execution of an FPS I have ever known). Fact is just thinking about all the possibilities (even ones that have been implemented and examined as how to improve their implementation) can get me really wound up. If I were to somehow make this "dream game" that I believe would be the most entertaining CRPG to me, the process of creating would be like back to back forced replays of imperfect versions that I know everything about. What most like myself really want is a chance like what Bioware gave for Mass Effect 2, where all of our suggestions lead to a totally satisfying game (unlike ME2's mixed reactions) that still feels like something we would never think of in a very good way.

But that's my realization pondering CRPG design (which I think I like the pondering more than a litteral implementation, and I will continue to ponder) since Spring of 2009. What's your take?
 

PorkaMorka

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Messages
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Roleplaying doesn't really have much to do with computer roleplaying games.

Originally, roleplaying games (now called pen and paper roleplaying games) were wargames where instead of controlling a military formation you controlled a single character. The first commercial roleplaying game came out in 1974; Dungeons and Dragons: Rules for Fantastic Medieval Wargames Campaigns Playable with Paper and Pencil and Miniature Figures.

By 1975 the first computer roleplaying games followed, the first one got deleted so we don't know anything about it. But the second one, pedit5 was an attempt to do D&D on the computer[1][2]. The third one was called dnd and... it was an attempt to do D&D on a computer. Later in 1975 we had Dungeon, you guessed it, an attempt to do D&D on the computer... this time with a multi character party.

The absence of storyfag style roleplaying from early CRPGs is notable. "RPG mechanics" on the other hand are immediately recognizable in even the earliest ones.

pedit5:
2z4zrzr.gif


Saying that computer roleplaying games are about roleplaying strikes me as revisionist and unrepresentative of the vast majority of the history of CRPGs.

It seems more accurate to say that computer roleplaying games try to provide something similar to / heavily inspired by the gameplay of pen and paper RPGs, only on a computer.

Or at least they did up until rather recently, when CRPGs were virtually wiped out and marketing started calling games from a variety of other genres CRPGs multi platform RPGs.

[1] http://armchairarcade.com/neo/node/1948
[2] Codexian LP of pedit5 here: http://www.rpgcodex.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=58028
 

MMXI

Arcane
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Messages
2,196
PorkaMorka said:
Roleplaying doesn't really have much to do with computer roleplaying games.

Originally, roleplaying games (now called pen and paper roleplaying games) were wargames where instead of controlling a military formation you controlled a single character. The first commercial roleplaying game came out in 1974; Dungeons and Dragons: Rules for Fantastic Medieval Wargames Campaigns Playable with Paper and Pencil and Miniature Figures.

By 1975 the first computer roleplaying games followed, the first one got deleted so we don't know anything about it. But the second one, pedit5 was an attempt to do D&D on the computer[1][2]. The third one was called dnd and... it was an attempt to do D&D on a computer. Later in 1975 we had Dungeon, you guessed it, an attempt to do D&D on the computer... this time with a multi character party.

The absence of storyfag style roleplaying from early CRPGs is notable. "RPG mechanics" on the other hand are immediately recognizable in even the earliest ones.

pedit5:

Saying that computer roleplaying games are about roleplaying strikes me as revisionist and unrepresentative of the vast majority of the history of CRPGs.

It seems more accurate to say that computer roleplaying games try to provide something similar to / heavily inspired by the gameplay of pen and paper RPGs, only on a computer.

Or at least they did up until rather recently, when CRPGs were virtually wiped out and marketing started calling games from a variety of other genres CRPGs multi platform RPGs.

[1] http://armchairarcade.com/neo/node/1948
[2] Codexian LP of pedit5 here: http://www.rpgcodex.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=58028
You see, proper cRPGs are worlds with objectives and a bunch of rules to play around with. The player has to reach those goals in any way possible by manipulating numbers in their favour. Nowadays cRPGs (or, more accurately, action adventures with levelling up) are highly scripted experiences where progression is more to do with walking forward and choosing options in cutscenes. The former forces you to think up solutions to problems while the latter forces you to choose between developer scripted options in a way similar to non-linear adventure games.
 

Giauz Ragnacock

Scholar
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Messages
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Very insightful PorkaMorka. But in a way I am glad the definition of RPG has broadend. Not in the marketing money-slave way, but in the way gameplay (the meat of player inputs and strategies) has spread out in so many different ways.

Pedit-5 and Dungeon philosophies of gameplay are two great ways of experiencing an adventure or just a well-storied character. Since those days designers have thought of many other ways of interacting with the games that might not have come about without the more imagination side of the CRPG genre. For example, in another topic that started out as an Ultima 2 rant saw comparisons of gameplay between Dos U5 and Lazarus. Nearly the same adventure is had, but experienced in different ways because Dungeon Siege has a much more action-oriented combat system.

So, while some games may play exactly like another genre with "RPG Elements" tagged on (may be unrelated, but I think I would have at least been able to play past the opening dungeon of Oblivion in FP without all the stats and menus. Those and some of the aesthetics for whatever reasons just wouldn't let me enjoy combat and story elements), I truly believe some designers go back to basics (like what inputs are available to the player and what uses, patterns, and tactics/strategies can I build on them to create satisfying complexity) to create unique gameplay, such as various "battle systems." However, the big drawback of this gameplay broadening is that a lot of great gameplay becomes forgotten because money-slaves tend to follow popular trends.
 

Fowyr

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7,671
mondblut said:
Were you as surprised the day you found out heavy metal music has no relation neither to chemistry nor to heavy industry?
:lol:
Well done.
 

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