Warlock Master of the Arcane - Fantasy Civ5 clone from Paradox

[DakaSha]

newfags gonna newfag (coming from a newfag)

entire page about updates and how massive they are... newfag tries demo.. gets butthurt.. comes and complains while praising MoM to gain KKK

 

[Misconnected]

I just tried this game.

Why oh why did they have to imitate CivV??? [1] All they accomplish with all those "high-res tiny-size" troopers is to make each unit hard to identify, hexes are hard to diferentiate, terrain camouflages units so player can't identify them and it also looks bland [2] and I won't talk about how other than special resources terrain has NO economic differentiation (DUMB DOWN). [3]

Master of Magic in DosBox looks better, yeah seriously it does, when it comes to understanding what is on the map and it is a 320x200 resolution game for god's sake!![4] Is it so hard to ask for developers to learn interfaces should actually "interface" with users before they look "awesome"?? [5]

I guess yes ... if even small developers go runing after allegedly AAA allegedly strategy games when it comes to actual strategy gaming .... it sucks.

And don't get me started on its AI, I am uncertain about the outcome of an hipothetical challenge between MoM's AI and Warlock's AI's .... again 20 years later.... [6]

Well I'll keep playing a 20 year old game rather than this, MoM is not a perfect game, actually it is a severely flawed great game, but it isn't any worst than Warlock 20 years later, what ?? about 100 times more budget?? [7] Just depressing.

1: For a lot of reasons that ultimately boil down to this: their customers wouldn't pay them to develop a new engine and general art direction. In case you didn't know already, Warlock is the 3rd hex TB by Ino-Co using the engine and general art direction. Both the previous ones were released before Civ5.

2: As far as I can tell, you're pretty much the only person on the planet with this particular complaint. If anything, just about everyone who've cared to voice an opinion, has had nothing but praise for the functionality of the graphics of both Civ5 and Warlock. I'll readily agree Warlock isn't the prettiest game in the world, but considering its budget constraints it's actually pretty impressive.

3: Warlock is not a simple game because the developer believes, rightly or wrongly, that you're too fucking retarded to dress yourself. It's a simple game because the developers would rather make a good simple game, than a broken complex game. And given the budget constraints, those were the only two options.
Warlock is still being expanded on, and the really cool thing about that is that improvements of existing features and expanded game mechanics are introduced via patches (for example the tile thing you just mentioned). The uncool thing is continued development is financed via DLC sales (I can rant a bit about why this isn't altogether great, if you wish).

4: Even rose-tinted glasses aren't supposed to be opaque. You might want to replay the game.

5: Warlock's interface, especially the GUI, is hardly ideal. The lack of task automation is a bitch and a half, for example. But if you're seriously comparing Warlock's interface unfavourably with MoM's, please see #4 above.

6: Warlock's expansion AI is an idiot, but it's still better than most such AIs. You pretty much have to compare it to GalCiv2 without the ToTA expansion (which, among other things, almost entirely broke the game's AIs), or Civilization 4 and 5, to find ones that are better.
Warlock's combat AI is, to the very best of my knowledge, roughly 671 times better than the penultimate hex TB combat AI. Which doesn't mean it never does really fucking dumb things, of course, just that it doesn't do stupid things as often as similar AIs, and that the stupid things it does do tend to be less severely stupid.
If you honestly believe MoM has better AI at any level, please see #4.

7: I wouldn't even know how to begin to verify and compare their relative development budgets in any reasonable way. Still, I'd be shocked if such a comparison, could it be made, didn't show that MoM had a budget at least several times larger than Warlock's.

 

[Zboj Lamignat]

Civ5 graphics praised for functionality? Sorry to break the flow of the discussion here, but that is one of the weirdest opinions ever.

 

[RK47]

has had nothing but praise for the functionality of the graphics of both Civ5 and Warlock.

As much as I liked Warlock, the UI is notorious for not having hotkey at launch. Not sure if they have added it now, but I've grown bored of the game to return.

Notice I did not rebuke Civ V, due to it having '2D hex display option' to make the clusterfuck clearer.
But try to understand why I needed 2D hex display if the graphic is 'functional' in the first place.

 

[Riel]

1: For a lot of reasons that ultimately boil down to this: their customers wouldn't pay them to develop a new engine and general art direction. In case you didn't know already, Warlock is the 3rd hex TB by Ino-Co using the engine and general art direction. Both the previous ones were released before Civ5

Meh, you still don't get it, it is not about the engine it's about the graphics. They basically dumped $$$ in 3D models for the units and then for some weird reasson they made them all tiny so they could fit 10+ figures on each hex. The concept is flawed from the begining, when you are doing a strategic game, that implies a few things:
1st It's not tactical, player needs to see a wide area.
2nd: In a wide area map there is lots of stuff going on at the same time that must be easily discernible.

Warlock achieves neither.

The best solution to those two requirements is to keep "flashy" graphics at bay and use simpler ones desgined so they can be identified easily at the strategic level, for best "readability" counters, but I guess a counter is more expensive than a 3d model no one is actually able to enjoy because it is too small.

But if they are the ones who made FantasyWars then it is clear why they did it that way.
"Hey dude we made a tactical fantasy game, why don't we do something new like a strategic fantasy game?"
"Yes that's great idea, we just got to add cities and recruiting to Fantasy War and we got it!!"

The genre change from tactical to strategy never crossed their minds.

Panzer General 2 for exampe while being a game somewhere between the tactical and strategic level looks better than Warlock and it's all 2D, and I don't mean just that it's graphics are more "readable" they also look pretier in their clarity and beauty, 15~ years ago.

 

[sser]

Personally, I think Warlock is a very pretty game. I also like the Majesty-universe, so there's that. But I don't really have any problems with the aesthetics of it. The clicking aspect to the UI is still my biggest beef, but beyond that I find the game very easy to manage. It's not like Elemental where everything looks like mud and you can't tell units from the landscapes.

 

[Zed]

It's not like Elemental where everything is shit.

 

[Misconnected]

The genre change from tactical to strategy never crossed their minds.

Originally units were displayed as a single, vaguely iconographic-like, 3D model that scaled with the zoom level. Only when zoomed all the way down, and for "action camera" stuff, did the unit representation gets switched out for the sort of thing you're complaining about in Warlock. The thing is, the decision to drop this approach and exclusively represent units as they now are in Warlock, was based on player feedback.

But FWIW you're right, I didn't understand what you meant. And I do agree with you. Though I can't really agree PG2 is a good example of a game that gets it right. Most of its unit iconography for similar unit types (like... medium tanks or whatever) was not exactly easy to tell apart.

 

[Grunker]

So how is multiplayer doing in this game? I loved it when I bought, but really wanted to multiplay with mah homies. It was in a shady BETA then, though.

 

[Kane]

It's still kinda beta. I still want to play this game in MP though.

 

[KoolNoodles]

I played through a couple games with my brother before the last two patches, and it ran pretty well. There were a couple hiccups and we had to restart a few times, but it was bearable. I can only assume the last two patches helped, especially since most of our problems came from the "game loading" bug, and it says it was fixed in 1.3.

We did have to fiddle with our routers, and turn off firewalls in the end, but that's somewhat standard these days, unfortunately.

 

[sser]

Been giving this another go and it almost feels like a whole 'nother game. It's just more complete and realized and -- hex-combat aside -- is very close to MoM in feel and play. Terrain carries a lot of influence now, which also comes with the ability to shape it (create deserts, fields, etc.). Lava now hurts to walk on (IIRC, it's 5am atm) and in turn there's a lot less of it; maps are just generally easier on the eyes. The two new races -- or quasi-new, anyway -- add a lot. Reptiles bring a lot of aggressive warriors and huge war turtles. Elves are elves, but with a few strange units thrown in. It's pretty much a given that Dwarves will be the next race included. I just love the variety of units and the new items/heroes; probably why it has the MoM feel. Whereas Elemental is almost exclusively "human" in its factions, Warlock has you running with all manner of fantastical goons. My armies were lead by a expert rat marksman and a Lovecraftian-death mage. At one point there was a hero ghost for hire who was immune to just about everything. My enemies had huge ogres and trolls running about; not to mention flying ships and wunderkind soldiers that could fly or go invisible or walk across water etc. The "other worlds" are a bit more accessible, though the type of armies you throw in them are still better off used just killing your enemies.

Anyway... much improved game. Big time.

 

[DakaSha]

Man the armageddon dlc is amazing so far. Added a great challenge.

 

[Grunker]

Been giving this another go and it almost feels like a whole 'nother game. It's just more complete and realized and -- hex-combat aside -- is very close to MoM in feel and play. Terrain carries a lot of influence now, which also comes with the ability to shape it (create deserts, fields, etc.). Lava now hurts to walk on (IIRC, it's 5am atm) and in turn there's a lot less of it; maps are just generally easier on the eyes. The two new races -- or quasi-new, anyway -- add a lot. Reptiles bring a lot of aggressive warriors and huge war turtles. Elves are elves, but with a few strange units thrown in. It's pretty much a given that Dwarves will be the next race included. I just love the variety of units and the new items/heroes; probably why it has the MoM feel. Whereas Elemental is almost exclusively "human" in its factions, Warlock has you running with all manner of fantastical goons. My armies were lead by a expert rat marksman and a Lovecraftian-death mage. At one point there was a hero ghost for hire who was immune to just about everything. My enemies had huge ogres and trolls running about; not to mention flying ships and wunderkind soldiers that could fly or go invisible or walk across water etc. The "other worlds" are a bit more accessible, though the type of armies you throw in them are still better off used just killing your enemies.

Anyway... much improved game. Big time.

If they make the otherworlds work in a sensible manner and make multiplayer work properly... man, this game could go from good to great.

 

[Merkwürdigliebe]

How does the multiplayer function in regards to DLC any way? Sure there isn't that many different DLC's currently, but still enough to cause trouble for a multiplayer session if you need to have the exact same setup and can't activate/deactivate them in the same manner as in Paradoxes inhouse developed games.

 

[Multi-headed Cow]

Man the armageddon dlc is amazing so far. Added a great challenge.

I've heard that about it. From the description it didn't sound like that big of a deal, but apparently in action it's kinda cool. All the wizards aren't guaranteed to work together so unless you maintain good relations you'll be squabbling amongst yourselves as the super monsters attack and the world goes to shit.

How does the multiplayer function in regards to DLC any way? Sure there isn't that many different DLC's currently, but still enough to cause trouble for a multiplayer session if you need to have the exact same setup and can't activate/deactivate them in the same manner as in Paradoxes inhouse developed games.

I'm fairly sure everyone can play with everyone. They add all the new DLC content in patches, and buying the DLC just lets you play with it but it's on your machine so you can, say, see all the elf shit if you were playing a DLC game with someone who had that. Only possible exception may be the armageddon DLC, but even that they may let people join and play those games, just not host them.

Pulling all this out of my ass though.

 

[DakaSha]

Man the armageddon dlc is amazing so far. Added a great challenge.

I've heard that about it. From the description it didn't sound like that big of a deal, but apparently in action it's kinda cool. All the wizards aren't guaranteed to work together so unless you maintain good relations you'll be squabbling amongst yourselves as the super monsters attack and the world goes to shit.

Its not some HUGE deal. But it makes the game an actual challenge. And yes there is a pretty cool diplomacy dynamic going on. The Ai eems to be much improved in terms of diplomacy (at least for this first game.. it could always be a fluke). Everybody was at peace while the dremers were close and once i destroyed their nearby shit a world war broke out.. im sure the dremers are gonna kill our dicks now.

Not to mention that some massive volcanoes are bound to pop up in the middle of my kingdom some time sooon

 

[sser]

Man the armageddon dlc is amazing so far. Added a great challenge.

I've heard that about it. From the description it didn't sound like that big of a deal, but apparently in action it's kinda cool. All the wizards aren't guaranteed to work together so unless you maintain good relations you'll be squabbling amongst yourselves as the super monsters attack and the world goes to shit.

Its not some HUGE deal. But it makes the game an actual challenge. And yes there is a pretty cool diplomacy dynamic going on. The Ai eems to be much improved in terms of diplomacy (at least for this first game.. it could always be a fluke). Everybody was at peace while the dremers were close and once i destroyed their nearby shit a world war broke out.. im sure the dremers are gonna kill our dicks now.

Not to mention that some massive volcanoes are bound to pop up in the middle of my kingdom some time sooon

Yeah it's the best DLC so far; a whole new game mode that is better than the original. My only problem is that I am playing on a large, supercontinent map and I never saw any of the 0/8 demon gates or whatever. I killed a few demon invasions, but none of the homebases, at least I think not. Anyway, those demons are hard as hell. All my units are pretty awful except a donkey-riding hero with resistances to everything out the wazoo -- a true walking tank; and a Mike Tyson-hero mage who one-shot everything that isn't immune to elemental damage. I had an awesome ogre hero who was wandering the lands taking cities (they are brutal in city attacks), but then he got hit by an asteroid and a horde of demons all in the same turn and died. Tough loss. The overall AI has gotten better. And the end-game material is chockfull of goodies to play around with. I ended up playing the game for hours and hours until it finally just crashed.

 

[DakaSha]

I learned that alliances are to be avoided at all costs seeing that the AI can force you into a war and you cant do the same. Wtf were they thinking

 

[Multi-headed Cow]

I've heard that the demon bases or whatever can apparently be in the other worlds too. Could be why you're not finding any.

And yeah I had an ogre/giant hero a while back and he was absolutely nuts. Not only did he do siege damage so he got bonuses to attacking cities, every attack he made hit adjacent hexes on either side of the target so he could hit 3 enemies in one attack. Loaded him up with as many upgrades and enchantments as I could, he practically soloed an enemy capital for me.

 

[sser]

I learned that alliances are to be avoided at all costs seeing that the AI can force you into a war and you cant do the same. Wtf were they thinking

What? When my allies tried to get me into a war I had the option to refuse. Refusal broke the alliance.

 

[DakaSha]

I learned that alliances are to be avoided at all costs seeing that the AI can force you into a war and you cant do the same. Wtf were they thinking

What? When my allies tried to get me into a war I had the option to refuse. Refusal broke the alliance.

Yes and doesnt it give you a massive -30 to -50 mood modifier for everybody? At leats thats what happens when you break an alliance by normal means.

thats a pretty big deal since it means being ganged up on by the whole map. something that you cant enforce on the AI

 

[sser]

Trying armageddon mode on just large continents was a better experience. I went with the undead this time, but their weak starting units were the end of me. I started off at the bottom of the map with a sliver of land -- and that was it. It was cut off from everyone else by water. Naturally, I built a bridge with spells and made my way across. I took my horde north and captured a city; and then the very next turn demons arrived. They took the city, putting two dwemer forts right next to each other. Demons flooded out of the gates, more demon zones appeared, and everybody was overrun. I tried "sinking" the demons into the ocean but that didn't work; which I guess makes sense as it would be too easy to insta-kill super units with that spell. Speaking of spells, the "purple" undead guy that starts with some god's favor gets a lot of nasty spells for research nonstop. Totally different style of play compared to most.

 

[DakaSha]

I'm going to play on the larger map settings next as well. I usually dont like it because the early game is boring but with the demons around it should spice things up

 

[RK47]

The game is pretty much what I wanted from that Fall From Heaven mod in Civ 4, minus the good 'religion' stuff of course.
Come to think of it, I haven't revisited it of late, but I recall the focus on your army should be about 'super units', candidates for these 'super units' should be those 'unique' dwelling creatures that takes a lot of gold to recruit. They last a shit long time. A super minotaur with all the enchant spells etc Regeneration and all that shit will pay off in the long run since he'd accumulate so much EXP n Gold from smashing random spawns.