Wake me up when the Incline begins...

[anvi]

Most devs don't revere Baldurs Gate and shit because it sold nothing compared to Call of Duty. Why obsess over hardcore design when you can just make a pretty game with swordz and magickaz and sell 25 million copies. RPGs are for indie devs now and small budgets.

 

[Lurker King]

So why is everyone constantly complaining about them, then? Are you and the other couple of obsessive fanboys the only ones who have actually played it or something? I've read about teleports galore and no real journeying about the time it was announced somewhere between the combat demo and the release, with VD defending it as "meh, walking around is just the padding anyway", and decided I have no interest in a game designed with that in mind.

Everyone? I think you mean “half a dozen of haters”. I don’t know why they keep talking about teleports. Probably because they don’t have any real criticism to make and need to resort to this cop out.

I did not wish him death, I did not wish his enterprise a financial ruin

Good. That makes the more than 80 thousand copies sold even sweeter.

I do, however, despise AoD fanbois.

And I despise posers that want to be perceived as monocled players, but criticize games based on hearsay.

 

[DeepOcean]

Problem is that a AA isometric RPG still take a few millions to make, 5 to 7 millions, this is a lot of money, big enough to make developers worried and the temptation to dumbdown so great. We have stuff like Underrail, AoD, Lords of Xulima, Staglands and others done with "Small" budgets but it still unknown if those developers can make a decent living on them as they are more on survival mode than actually on the making alot of money mode.

We need a Paradox for RPGs, I know people hate Paradox for the buggy games and DLC but if they can make an stable business on strategy map painting games, there is nothing stopping a RPG developer to do the same, the question if they are going to accept they won't ever have an AAA audience and attempts on getting one may be really bad ideas. The question is who will be able to achieve this? Living of crowdfunding doesn't seem something healthy to me.

 

[Lurker King]

The game ends with Deep Caverns but before that you can approach the game in any way you like it. You probably don't know what linear means.

I understand just fine. Underrail has pockets of reactivity in the faction quests and the junkyard, but besides that is a linear game. You have to do the same quests every time you replay the game. The fact that you can use different skills to beat a few quests doesn’t change this basic fact.

There is no grid if you go with Oddities XP system which by the way it's innovative for RPGs now-days.

But Oddities was designed for what exactly? To avoid grinding for XPs? But you end up grinding for oddities all the same. Half of the time you spent doing idiotic and repetitive shit, like using lockpicking on locks. SO INNOVATIVE!!!

Overpowered broken builds is what makes RPGs great and fun.

That is popamole design 101. The moment you character becomes overpowered, there is no challenge anymore. The fun in trying different combos and combinations means nothing if the result is the lack of attrition and challenge.

Cooldowns complain is a non-issue. I guess this is the point where you start with cherry picking.

It’s not cherry picking. It’s an inefficient and boring way to balance the combat system. Do you know what type of games has lots of cooldowns? MMOs!

Enemies are not respawning all the time. You could have known that if you played the game but you probably didn't .... cause there is no map (!?)

I have more than 200 hours of gameplay and did most of the stuff, tried different builds, etc. unlike you, I actually play the games I criticize.

You don't know what retarded MMO design means (Skyrim, Fallout 4). Underrail has some filler content but the vast majority of the game world is hand-crafted and there are few instances where shit repeats.

The problem is that guiding principles behind Underrail are the same. Sure, you have cool perks, combos and challenge, but you also has an-awesumu-gigantic-world-to-explore mentality that makes you go back and forth like a pinball ball for hours to do nothing but poorly written FedEx quests. The whole setting is a gigantic filler because it is gamey as fuck. Of course, if you only want things to kill and move from point A to point B, that doesn’t matter. This shows your priorities and lower standards.

That retarded writing is 10x more interesting that PoE - it happens that I like it and it's filled with hints if you pay attention.

That is like saying the game world is more believable than Skyrim. It’s not a compliment. If you think the game is good despite the bad writing, I accept that. But don’t try to defend the writing in this game, because this is an impossible task.

Overall fedex quests are few but again ... you could have know this if you played the game.

They are not few. In fact, they are the bread and butter of the game. I could give you a list, but you don’t give a fuck about facts.

 

[Lurker King]

Problem is that a AA isometric RPG still take a few millions to make, 5 to 7 millions, this is a lot of money, big enough to make developers worried and the temptation to dumbdown so great. We have stuff like Underrail, AoD, Lords of Xulima, Staglands and others done with "Small" budgets but it still unknown if those developers can make a decent living on them as they are more on survival mode than actually on the making a lot of money mode.

It is unknown because most players here have their priorities fucked up. Take Tyranny, for example. Most people here trashed the game before the release, but the very same people bought the game with a ridiculous price tag just to trash the game even more. So they fund a studio playing its popamole games just so they can bash it afterwards. We know Obsidian will not release decent games, but we only talk about them. Meanwhile, “Dungeon Rats” was released for one-fifth of the price, it is a decent game, but is largely ignored, because talking about Obsidian games and their popamole SJW developers is perceived as more important. So in theory, if the players were perfectly rational, they would avoid most of these medium studios like the plague and invest on the developers who don’t compromise their standards. In practice, it’s the opposite. Maybe this just shows how many players here are actually storyfags popamole with lower standards, I don’t know.

We need a Paradox for RPGs, I know people hate Paradox for the buggy games and DLC but if they can make an stable business on strategy map painting games, there is nothing stopping a RPG developer to do the same.

Of course there is. For starters, the audience is mostly different. While some cRPG players enjoy strategy games, most strategy players ignore cRPGs. They don't care about the writing, the reactivity, the character building, or any of that. That's why strategy is a more healthy genre than cRPGs. You can create a new generation of competitive players who enjoy combat without the cRPG packet.

 

[Jazz_]

The writing in AoD is shitty too. And teleporting to set piece to set piece to talk to static lifeless npcs to see where the skill checks lead you next is arguably even worse than doing Fedex quests in a big open world. At least with the latter you get to 1) explore shit 2) loot shit 3) kill shit (which for me it's the main selling point of Underrail anyway, the tactical combat and the combat builds). AoD has basicly no gameplay and world's interactivity outside of the aforementioned set pieces.

 

[Serus]

Ok - so far we have:
Lurker King: there is no spoon incline
Mondblut following noble retarded tradition of talking about games he haven't played.
People saying obvious things about other people saying stupid things about nostalgia.
And what else ?
I rate this thread 3/10 so far.

Edit:

The writing in AoD is shitty too. And teleporting to set piece to set piece to talk to static lifeless npcs to see where the skill checks lead you next is arguably even worse than doing Fedex quests in a big open world. At least with the latter you get to 1) explore shit 2) loot shit 3) kill shit (which for me it's the main selling point of Underrail anyway, the tactical combat and the combat builds). AoD has basicly no gameplay and world's interactivity outside of the aforementioned set pieces.

Another Mondblut... Teleporting in large quantities only exists in starting city (and i agree it is overdone/stupid - but is a minor thing really - doesn't change much), and there are things to explore, discover and do there by walking around on foot.
All this coming from someone who waited to play AoD for a ~1 year because he was sceptical after trying it shortly after release.
In short: give it a chance for more than a few hours and the game's strong elements start to show (quite a surprise for me at my second attempt). It has its flaws but teleporting really isn't one you should be focusing on if you want to bash it.

 

[an Administrator]

I understand just fine. Underrail has pockets of reactivity in the faction quests and the junkyard, but besides that is a linear game

There is nothing wrong in being linear.
Reactivity(read it c&c) in RPGs is overrated.

 

[Lurker King]

There is nothing wrong in being linear.
Reactivity(read it c&c) in RPGs is overrated.

That is like saying "there is nothing with the lack of steering wheel. Steering wheels in cars are overrated".

I rate this thread 3/10 so far.

That is decline. Twenty years ago threads were much better, I swear.

 

[mondblut]

There is nothing wrong in being linear.

There is. RPGs are all about freedom.

Reactivity(read it c&c) in RPGs is overrated.

Indeed, but non-linearity does not necessite "reactivity". Most greats did just fine with the former without being obsessive with the later. What matters is that you can freely roam around, not that your every act of defecation alters the possible future of multiple universes.

 

[mondblut]

Another Mondblut... Teleporting in large quantities only exists in starting city (and i agree it is overdone/stupid - but is a minor thing really - doesn't change much), and there are things to explore, discover and do there by walking around on foot.

There are no teleports! Ok, there are teleports, but they are few! Ok, they are overdone in starting city, but that's really a minor thing!

You fanbois sound like democrats talking about Trump's nomination.

 

[an Administrator]

There is. RPGs are all about freedom.

:kwanzania:

VTMB and Wizardry titles have a fairly linear storylines and they are pretty good RPGs. Being linear doesn't mean that you won't be able to do things in a different style. Character Progression(Different, builds,races, classes, etc.) in an RPG provides that enough 'freedom'.

 

[mondblut]

There is. RPGs are all about freedom.

:kwanzania:

VTMB and Wizardry titles have a fairly linear storylines and they are pretty good RPGs.

The best Wizardries (7-8) were highly open-world games, and VTMB was anything but good RPG.

 

[octavius]

While some cRPG players enjoy strategy games, most strategy players ignore cRPGs. They don't care about the writing, the reactivity, the character building, or any of that. That's why strategy is a more healthy genre than cRPGs. You can create a new generation of competitive players who enjoy combat without the cRPG packet.

Good point.
Also look at the difference between the modders of CRPGs and strategy games. With CRPGs it's like 95% romances and nude mods, while the map makers of games like the HoMM and Age of Wonders created maps that are far better than the ones shipping with the games.

 

[toro]

The game ends with Deep Caverns but before that you can approach the game in any way you like it. You probably don't know what linear means.

I understand just fine. Underrail has pockets of reactivity in the faction quests and the junkyard, but besides that is a linear game. You have to do the same quests every time you replay the game. The fact that you can use different skills to beat a few quests doesn’t change this basic fact.

Simply not true: the game doesn't force you to do all the quests in a certain order. Like I've said before: you don't know what linear means.

There is no grid if you go with Oddities XP system which by the way it's innovative for RPGs now-days.

But Oddities was designed for what exactly? To avoid grinding for XPs? But you end up grinding for oddities all the same. Half of the time you spent doing idiotic and repetitive shit, like using lockpicking on locks. SO INNOVATIVE!!!

Wrong again: You don't need to and you cannot "grind" for oddities. The game is smart enough that oddities occur in a natural way in the game world (by exploration and by combat).

Overpowered broken builds is what makes RPGs great and fun.

That is popamole design 101. The moment you character becomes overpowered, there is no challenge anymore. The fun in trying different combos and combinations means nothing if the result is the lack of attrition and challenge.

However Underail manages to be challenging for the most part: many high level builds have difficulties in Deep Caverns (for the wrong reasons but the challenge is there). Therefore success is not guaranteed by the game.

So, I guess you are speaking about a different game at this point!?

Cooldowns complain is a non-issue. I guess this is the point where you start with cherry picking.

It’s not cherry picking. It’s an inefficient and boring way to balance the combat system. Do you know what type of games has lots of cooldowns? MMOs!

However cooldowns are not exclusive to the MMO genre which means your argument is invalid. Most MMO contain a map therefore I could say that by lacking a map Underrail was definitely not designed as a MMORPG !? Does this make sense to you?

Enemies are not respawning all the time. You could have known that if you played the game but you probably didn't .... cause there is no map (!?)

I have more than 200 hours of gameplay and did most of the stuff, tried different builds, etc. unlike you, I actually play the games I criticize.

That's why you state so much misinformation. Obviously.

You don't know what retarded MMO design means (Skyrim, Fallout 4). Underrail has some filler content but the vast majority of the game world is hand-crafted and there are few instances where shit repeats.

The problem is that guiding principles behind Underrail are the same. Sure, you have cool perks, combos and challenge, but you also has an-awesumu-gigantic-world-to-explore mentality that makes you go back and forth like a pinball ball for hours to do nothing but poorly written FedEx quests. The whole setting is a gigantic filler because it is gamey as fuck. Of course, if you only want things to kill and move from point A to point B, that doesn’t matter. This shows your priorities and lower standards.

Do you analyze me or the game? The quality of Underrail has nothing to do with my bad taste.

That retarded writing is 10x more interesting that PoE - it happens that I like it and it's filled with hints if you pay attention.

That is like saying the game world is more believable than Skyrim. It’s not a compliment. If you think the game is good despite the bad writing, I accept that. But don’t try to defend the writing in this game, because this is an impossible task.

Underrail writing is great. It's not boggled by pretentious shit and it's actually refreshing compared to other games (as in it's a good match for the game world). Now, please show me WHY the writing in Underrail is bad? I'm all ears.

Overall fedex quests are few but again ... you could have know this if you played the game.

They are not few. In fact, they are the bread and butter of the game. I could give you a list, but you don’t give a fuck about facts.

Unfortunately there are a lot of them in Underrail however I would not judge the game based on this considering that this is a generic complain about almost any RPG out there.

 

[aweigh]

OP says he owns the SR games, which means he is sitting on a bonafide modern classic with SR: Dragonfall, yet has not played it yet for some reason.

Also why complain about lack of RPGs by contrasting with enjoying non-RPGs, such as dark souls? I do not understand point of thread.

 

[Lurker King]

Indeed, but non-linearity does not necessities "reactivity". Most greats did just fine with the former without being obsessive with the later. What matters is that you can freely roam around, not that your every act of defecation alters the possible future of multiple universes.

Niger pleaseeeee! SO OBLIVION, DA:I, SKYRIM, FO3 AND FO4 MUST BE GREAT cRPGs THEN, BECAUSE WHAT MATTERS IS THAT YOU CAN FREELY ROAM AROUND! I will repeat this again. The popamole games are the natural consequence of the traditional prejudices in cRPG design. Some people here are closet popamoles. They enjoy the same thing the causals do, just in a slight less degree.

There are no teleports! Ok, there are teleports, but they are few! Ok, they are overdone in starting city, but that's really a minor thing!

99% of the teleports are optional. If you ask me, the game should have more. I also think that there is a lot of confusion with the use of the word. People treat even text-adventures and change of cities as teleports, which is retarded.

 

[mondblut]

Indeed, but non-linearity does not necessities "reactivity". Most greats did just fine with the former without being obsessive with the later. What matters is that you can freely roam around, not that your every act of defecation alters the possible future of multiple universes.

Niger pleaseeeee! SO OBLIVION, DA:I, SKYRIM, FO3 AND FO4 MUST BE GREAT cRPGs THEN

Give them proper party, TB combat and semi-decent traditional ruleset, and they are instant classics on par with other classics. Well, dunno about DAI, don't have a faintest clue how it differs from DAO, the codexian CYOAfags' choice for game of the year.

If you ask me, the game should have more.

This, I have no doubt of. Too bad some combat still made its way in, huh?

I also think that there is a lot of confusion with the use of the word. People treat even text-adventures and change of cities as teleports, which is retarded.

...And then these people act butthurt when others dismiss this shite as CYOA, lol. Thanks for confirming the worst suspicions.

 

[Lurker King]

Simply not true: the game doesn't force you to do all the quests in a certain order. Like I've said before: you don't know what linear means.

The game doesn’t force me to do the quests in a certain order, but it forces me to do the same fucking quests every single time. How am I supposed to enjoy different builds if I have to walk around like a retarded, killing hundreds of rathounds, and crossing the same tunnels back and forth? Traditional design of cRPGs is aimed at brain dead children.

Wrong again: You don't need to and you cannot "grind" for oddities. The game is smart enough that oddities occur in a natural way in the game world (by exploration and by combat).

That is not the point. The system was designed to avoid grinding behavior, but it doesn’t work that way, because it creates the same incentives. You are rewarded for engaging in fights you don’t need or repeating mindless tasks to level up. This is still traditional design in its finest. It’s gamey as fuck. Impossible to defend.

However cooldowns are not exclusive to the MMO genre which means your argument is invalid. Most MMO contain a map therefore I could say that by lacking a map Underrail was definitely not designed as a MMORPG!? Does this make sense to you?

The difference is that cooldowns are a feature of combat systems, not a basic functionality like maps or journals. Nobody ever complained about how the basic functionalities in MMOs, but they can complain about the combat.

Underrail writing is great. It's not boggled by pretentious shit and it's actually refreshing compared to other games (as in it's a good match for the game world). Now, please show me WHY the writing in Underrail is bad? I'm all ears.

What the hell I’m doing with my time. If you can’t realize why a character named “Joe the beautiful” who gives locations in exchange for food is not a great idea, I think you aren’t worth the effort.

 

[Lurker King]

mondblut arguments can be all summarized like this: "I don’t like reactivity and story in muh cRPGs, I only care about combat and exploration". What kind of retarded assumption is that?! We all know you don’t like these things, you fucking retarded. That doesn’t make your precious assumption a magic argument that wins the discussion. In case you haven’t notice, freedom in PnP usually means different choices, not just different ways to kill things. But who gives a fuck about the nature of cRPGs, am I right? Now we have to be stucked forever in whatever is the poor imitation of D&D some dumb developer made decades ago, because that is what cRPGs really means. cRPGs are just Wizandry because this is traditional. People like you make me sick. You are just as simple minded and superficial as the popamolers.

 

[Perkel]

http://www.co8.org/community/index.php?threads/icewind-dale-toee-total-conversion-open-beta.12019/

incline

 

[an Administrator]

How am I supposed to enjoy different builds if I have to walk around like a retarded, killing hundreds of rathounds, and crossing the same tunnels back and forth?

You can kill enemies in different ways with different builds; Knife, sniper rifle, assault rifle, unarmed, crossbow and sledghammer, psionic powers(mage spells xd).
Also you can even invest in Stealth skill and avoid many unnecessary fights(while collecting oddities).

 

[Siobhan]

That doesn’t make your precious assumption a magic argument that wins the discussion. In case you haven’t notice, freedom in PnP usually means different choices, not just different ways to kill things. But who gives a fuck about the nature of the very stuff that cRPGs should be about, am I right?

 

[Azrael the cat]

Plus, those games didn't come from nowhere. They weren't 'oldschool', they were the pinnacle of a genre/subgenre that had been steadily improving for nearly 20 years. To get games of that quality, you'd need the genre to not only re-emerge, but also consolidate itself and build back up to that level over the next decade.

I'm skeptical of this evolution view, RPGs gone on really different directions over the years and I dunno if you can say there was an evolution. Just to take some examples, stuff like the Wizardry series and their similiars, the Ultimas, the Gold Box games and the Infinite Engine games, they aren't exactly an evolution from each other but more like different directions took by different developers.

While I agree that is possible for D:OS 2, Torment and PoE 2 (If Obsidian get their shit together and start doing decent encounter design and learn how to fucking code a decent enemy AI.) to be good games, games like Tyranny and the Wasteland 3 kickstarter makes me very worried they might not follow the direction of incline as some people are hoping.

I agree that there are a number of wildly differing branches of the genre, but within each of those branches (at least the good ones) there was an evolution from the early 80s to the late 90s. Instead of comparing Wizardry v Ultima v Gold box, just compare Wiz 1 vs Wiz 7. Could a developer have made Wiz 7 without the organisational culture/experience that came from making Wiz 1-6?

 

[SausageInYourFace]

Just calling something nostalgia is devoid of logic

To my mind, nostalgia is a pretty logically relevant factor if someone states he wants to relive a certain 'sense of wonder' that he experienced in his formative years but now does not anymore, for whatever reason.

Most importantly, in contrast to what some posters are are misrepresenting my argument like, I did not "simply" call something nostalgia, nor did I invoke rose-tinted glasses, called anyone a nostalgiafag or any other kind of such nonsense;

I emphasized that personal and historical context influences ones perception. I consider that to be a pretty self-evident notion.

Funny how it blasted so many butts. I like old games too, guys.