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Underrail: The Incline Awakens

oneself

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Anyone knows a reliable source for those?

I know that dreadnoughts drop quite a bit of 9mm W2C but that is the only source of them outside shops.

You actually don't need that many piercing bullets in DC. Most go down fine with normal bullets. Only certain enemies do too much damage and are too annoying to not kill fast with W2C.
 

Blaine

Cis-Het Oppressor
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Grab the Codex by the pussy
Gord The best source of W2C (fun fact: that terminology is based on periodic table symbols, stands for tungsten sub-carbide) rounds, or asparagus rounds as I like to call them, is the Tchortist armory. They sell 30 of each type of W2C round (less in the case of 12.7mm) every merchant cycle, so be sure to gain access to their bunker as early as possible and visit the armory as often as possible.
 

Nines

Learned
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Nov 16, 2015
Messages
230
Show me your oddities.
j4BBDYK.png
I'm still missing a couple from CC, I guess. Not sure if they can be obtained without stealing, though.
3JGb.png
First line - 7xp
2 - 7 xp
3 - 8 xp
4 - 8 xp
5 - 2 xp
6 - 1 xp
7 - 0 xp
8 - 10 xp
9 - 7 xp
10 - 2 xp
11 - 7xp

~59xp points if I didn't make a mistake somewhere.
Most of the stuff you're missing is generic, except for some unique oddities from
Free Drones quest line, Tri-Monitor Blueprint (blue thing below), Old Money (locked in Rail Crossing) and Old Religious Scripture.
Killing worms from the Foundry mines can give you 4xp, and another 2xp from Bladelings.
The same I can say about drones. You're missing Self-Consciousness Module and some Registration Plates.
You too have some of the stuff I don't, but I still have to explore Upper Underrail.
 

Blaine

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Ladies and gentlemen, crossbows.

84% to-hit positioned a handful of grid squares away from a completely unaware enemy while Focused (I presume) and using night vision. What's your effective Crossbows skill, Nines? My guess is 200+.

The chances of killing Gubbins (and probably one or two other dudes) with any decent stealth psi build on the first turn are 100%.
 

Nines

Learned
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Nov 16, 2015
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230
203 Crossbows, 14 Per, Focused. What really amuses me is that he's actually standing with his back to me. :)
 

Inf0mercial

Augur
Joined
Jan 28, 2014
Messages
264
Gubbins is fun. he has like 700hp, i wish styg would give him some kevlar/riot armour and a good quality energy shield, just so upper underrail actually has a challenge somewhere in the tunnels besides lunatic bosses, with his hammer he would be a fun mini boss type guy.
 

ArchAngel

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Gubbins is fun. he has like 700hp, i wish styg would give him some kevlar/riot armour and a good quality energy shield, just so upper underrail actually has a challenge somewhere in the tunnels besides lunatic bosses, with his hammer he would be a fun mini boss type guy.
Single high hp enemies are easiest to kill for crossbow characters, especially if they are melee. No matter what they give him, he would not be a challenge.
 

Inf0mercial

Augur
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Messages
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Gubbins is fun. he has like 700hp, i wish styg would give him some kevlar/riot armour and a good quality energy shield, just so upper underrail actually has a challenge somewhere in the tunnels besides lunatic bosses, with his hammer he would be a fun mini boss type guy.
Single high hp enemies are easiest to kill for crossbow characters, especially if they are melee. No matter what they give him, he would not be a challenge.
His real danger is to light armour gun characters, my heavy armour Ar gun blew him away and any melee build would stun lock him to death, psi has a ton of ways to shut him down as do crossbows and traps.

Thinking on this i honestly think light amour stealth with guns is the hardest character build just after heavy sledgehammer, you don't have the hp of heavy armour or the silence of crossbows or the silence and alpha strike/ wall of psi.
 

Mac_Orion

Stygian Software
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Thinking on this i honestly think light amour stealth with guns is the hardest character build just after heavy sledgehammer, you don't have the hp of heavy armour or the silence of crossbows or the silence and alpha strike/ wall of psi.

silencer smg/Sniper and light armor/stealth. One of my builds.
 

veevoir

Klytus, I'm bored
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Shadorwun: Hong Kong BattleTech
Thinking on this i honestly think light amour stealth with guns is the hardest character build just after heavy sledgehammer, you don't have the hp of heavy armour or the silence of crossbows or the silence and alpha strike/ wall of psi.

Oh boy you are so wrong.

Mobile light builds with guns own the game, especially smg ones with grenades. Just need that sniper rifle as backup against heavy armor/lots of green bullets.
 

Nines

Learned
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I wish the maximum Precision was 99%, instead of 95%, considering that you will never hit that mark with crossbows against more or less serious enemy.
Pretty much every model suck balls except for Tornado and Cyclon. And Cyclon practically suck balls too because of its underwhelming damage. It's useful only when you need to finish or stun an enemy.
Scope is useless. I don't think someone would prefer it instead of Anatomically-Aware Scope or Super String.
And crit-based build is basically non-viable, because of DC.

lol you suck bro

Every+time+i+see+that+gif+i+always+watch+it+_fb536ef3fde59b0703d29fa90243df94.png
 

Blaine

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There's no question in my mind that the strongest/easiest build in the game is stealth omni-psi with high mobility.

It has its weaknesses, the main one being that without the element of surprise and initiative it can be torn apart like sopping wet tissue paper being clawed by a grizzly bear, but nine times out of ten the fight's over (or nearly over) before enemies have the opportunity to exploit those weaknesses.
 

Ziem

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May 17, 2014
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324
its easy because its reliable
especially compared to builds that rely on single shots (pistol/crossbow/sniper rifle users)
 

ST'Ranger

Augur
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Oct 23, 2014
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306
I wish the maximum Precision was 99%, instead of 95%, considering that you will never hit that mark with crossbows against more or less serious enemy.
Pretty much every model suck balls except for Tornado and Cyclon. And Cyclon practically suck balls too because of its underwhelming damage. It's useful only when you need to finish or stun an enemy.
Scope is useless. I don't think someone would prefer it instead of Anatomically-Aware Scope or Super String.
And crit-based build is basically non-viable, because of DC.

Your statements tell more about your flawed approach to the game than the actual game itself.

If one was to read all the doom and gloom about DC in this thread and then make a crossbow character, this is almost certainly the kind of outcome you'd expect. There are a tiny handful of enemies throughout the game that are crit immune. The vast majority of other enemies in the game get utterly dominated by crits - and the crossbow platform itself in many ways demands and rewards a crit-focused character.

If a crit-based build is "non-viable", then what is a crossbow build that is "viable"?

I had no trouble beating the game (sans the mutagen scanner bug) with the original unnerfed DC enemies on Hard as my first playthrough, completely blind. This tiny handful of enemies was not difficult - just annoying and badly-designed. They demand attrition, and a crossbow character is not designed to do that - like sticking a square peg in a round hole. There's nothing one can change about the crossbow character to make it "viable" against these creatures - it's going to be an annoying attrition fight either way. Claiming that this small handful of creatures invalidates one of the pillars of strong crossbow builds is just not sensible.

The best crossbow in the game is the Zephyr. It's strange to me that you'd peg the Anatomically-Aware Scope as a very good component and then completely miss out on this point. Though, an optimal setup is going to have an AA Zephyr + something else (I prefer a scoped or HR Tornado). Throughout the game it's the beginning of the fight that really matters, and the AA Zephyr demands its spot by beating out the other contenders soundly on this point.

I agree with some of the general criticisms of crossbows. It is, at the moment, the worst possible build to play without good crafting, and most of its problems stem from the existence of Super Strings. Non-crafting characters get shafted because they'll never deal the crazy damage that's possible. Crafting characters get shafted because this component must be part of every crossbow, making crossbow crafting a bit boring. We're left with stuff like AA Zephyrs. It would be cool to have an HR/AA Tornado or a Pneumatic/Scoped Cyclon or other combinations. Right now we're left with Super String + Something Else if we're trying to do the best we can.

But really making statements like "crit-based build(s) (are) basically non-viable" is a bit like saying "wielding two weapons on a dual-wielder is basically non-viable". Yeah crossbows aren't completely broken like some other builds, but they are perfectly capable of going through the entire game and (most importantly) are a very fun build to play. They dominate most everything, built correctly, pre-DC - and in DC they only struggle with those small handful of attrition creatures.

There's no question in my mind that the strongest/easiest build in the game is stealth omni-psi with high mobility.

It has its weaknesses, the main one being that without the element of surprise and initiative it can be torn apart like sopping wet tissue paper being clawed by a grizzly bear, but nine times out of ten the fight's over (or nearly over) before enemies have the opportunity to exploit those weaknesses.

By far the easiest build I've gone through the game with is the PSICON, even after all the nerfs. One can thoughtlessly stumble around - no sneaking or planning required - and obliterate everything. PSI powers are honestly far too strong on high-level characters. They feel pretty good around lvl 8-12 but end up trivializing the game later. It's still pretty fun but there's just no challenge to it whatsoever. It's especially bad with good crafting. I prefer the sneaky style myself because there's the challenge of getting the initiation right, at least.
 

Nines

Learned
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Nov 16, 2015
Messages
230
Your statements tell more about your flawed approach to the game than the actual game itself.
I have yet to see this flawed approach, because the only thing that pisses me off is Precision. I have no troubles playing through the game with my current build. It just sometimes involves a lot of savescumming. And saying that all other approaches, except for yours, are flawed is kinda... yeah... :obviously:

If one was to read all the doom and gloom about DC in this thread and then make a crossbow character, this is almost certainly the kind of outcome you'd expect. There are a tiny handful of enemies throughout the game that are crit immune. The vast majority of other enemies in the game get utterly dominated by crits - and the crossbow platform itself in many ways demands and rewards a crit-focused character.
I made a crossbow character long before the first comments about DC. Originally I wanted to make a sniper/smg build. Bladelings, which were almost impossible to dispatch within 3 turns without traps, gave me a glimpse of what I should expect from DC. The vast majority of enemies do not possess any threat.

If a crit-based build is "non-viable", then what is a crossbow build that is "viable"?
The one where you're improving damage, as well as crit-bonus (if possible), while not relying on crit-chance.

The best crossbow in the game is the Zephyr. It's strange to me that you'd peg the Anatomically-Aware Scope as a very good component and then completely miss out on this point. Though, an optimal setup is going to have an AA Zephyr + something else (I prefer a scoped or HR Tornado). Throughout the game it's the beginning of the fight that really matters, and the AA Zephyr demands its spot by beating out the other contenders soundly on this point.
Because of 25% crit-bonus? Please. You always open with Snipe, and damage is the key. Snipe is scaled by your Stealth which is the most easily boostable skill in the game. We could compare damage if you give me some numbers and specific enemies.
I choose AA Scope because it's the only option. HRD Scope is useless, Scope is even more useless, and Pneumatic Reloader is only good for Cyclon.
Zephyr + Tornado? With Adrenaline Shot you have 70 Action Points. Even if Tornado will have Pneumatic Reloader you will still need 71 AP (25+25+21). Cyclon with PR is the only option for a second gun. You are able to make 4/5 shots with it, depending on how you spend the available AP. I prefer 3 shots from Tornado and 1 shot from Cyclon for a llitle bit of CC.
 

oneself

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Thinking on this i honestly think light amour stealth with guns is the hardest character build just after heavy sledgehammer, you don't have the hp of heavy armour or the silence of crossbows or the silence and alpha strike/ wall of psi.

Really? Heavy armor is IMO much more difficult to play in comparison to light armor. You are a walking turret and PSI/crippling strike shits on you. You don't have a choice but to tank damage.

Agility/DEX investment means you get initiative, which means you get to dictate the pace of the engagements.
 

ST'Ranger

Augur
Joined
Oct 23, 2014
Messages
306
You're dismissing crit damage bonus? I'm not sure now if you're just trying to get a rise out of me or if you're intentionally trying to mislead readers.

crossbow_crit.png


I'm not good enough at photoshop to lie about this. It's quite easy to deal over 1000 damage. It's true you can (and should) boost the hell out of Snipe. What I don't get is how you can sell me so hard on Snipe and then not sell me another Snipe on top of it.

Your definition of a crit-based build is one that doesn't rely on crit chance. That is a vulgar semantic misattribution, at the very least when discussing Underrail where Aimed Shot exists.

It's true you can do some things for certain fights with Cyclon + Adrenaline, but it's better in 90% of cases to just straight up kill with Snipe and Aimed Shot in the first round. Cyclon would be a lot better if we didn't have the Super String problem.
 

Inf0mercial

Augur
Joined
Jan 28, 2014
Messages
264
Thinking on this i honestly think light amour stealth with guns is the hardest character build just after heavy sledgehammer, you don't have the hp of heavy armour or the silence of crossbows or the silence and alpha strike/ wall of psi.

Really? Heavy armor is IMO much more difficult to play in comparison to light armor. You are a walking turret and PSI/crippling strike shits on you. You don't have a choice but to tank damage.

Agility/DEX investment means you get initiative, which means you get to dictate the pace of the engagements.

I mean i picked 10 con so all those stuns that get thrown around don't prevent me from bursting people in the face, at first with low metal Armour it was annoying but i just kept stacking mental plates and now i with Ar bursts kill 2 people a round 9 str gives you max tungsten plates which stacked together lets you ignore every thing, crippling strike is rage inducing but in a "why is this fight taking so fucking long" way more than a oh i'm dead way, sure your lockpicking and throwing suffers with low dex and ag but that doesn't matter later on with th jacknife and throwing doesn't need to be that precise except later on with flash bangs and you have enough throwing skill by then. Also as for shit initiative yeah that's what the shield is for or that giant pool of Hp juggernaut gives you with high con.

My heavy Ar build was guns throwing and all science skills, so i ended up making metal armour with 39 mechanical resistance and that was me getting impatient and going to DC early, combined with boots of 8 and the normal 50% boost on all you are stronger than a deadnaught and can never be stunned, combined with high science and throwing lets me if i get bored throw around mk5 nades and gas grenade or flash bangs.

Your only threat is psi and that drops dramatically when they can't stun you only disables, combined with goggles and smart module on Ar and you get up another 75% on top of your normal burst fire damage and whatever bullet type you pick the special version you can mass produce from firing so many rounds.

Light armour with guns runs into the issue that you don't have any in built crowd control or stuns unless you branch out the flashbangs or a taser, you are also loud in combat so where crossbows or psi can stealth and engage one at a time later on light Armour doesn't have that so you need to pick up throwing for crowd control, which combined with evasion and dodge sink take sup skill points so your left with having to pick either less science skills or miss out on lockpicking as you need stealth for dictating engagements so that's another skill sink, i just think its a skill poor build that requires way too many necessary skills you have to take, it doesn't give you much to play around with.
 

Nines

Learned
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Nov 16, 2015
Messages
230
You're dismissing crit damage bonus?
No.
The one where you're improving damage, as well as crit-bonus (if possible)

I'm not good enough at photoshop to lie about this. It's quite easy to deal over 1000 damage. It's true you can (and should) boost the hell out of Snipe. What I don't get is how you can sell me so hard on Snipe and then not sell me another Snipe on top of it.
Your screenshot doesn't have much of scientific value, mostly because you hid the damage above, and also because I'm more interested in actual field tests rather than theory-crafting (aka how much real damage you do from Snipe and Aimed Shot to a specific enemy). But anyway, we were talking about Zephyr vs Tornado, no? I'm just saying that the bonus you can get from higher Tornado damage multiplied by Super String and then by ~500% from Snipe is probably worth more than 25% crit-bonus from Zephyr multiplied by Critical Power (37,5% ?). Especially considering that damage itself also affects Aimed Shot, while crit-bonus has no effect on Snipe.

Your definition of a crit-based build is one that doesn't rely on crit chance. That is a vulgar semantic misattribution, at the very least when discussing Underrail where Aimed Shot exists.
It's not my fault that the game allows to create two different crit-based builds. There are some perks, HRD Scope, Monsoon crossbow, Focus Stim, etc.

It's true you can do some things for certain fights with Cyclon + Adrenaline, but it's better in 90% of cases to just straight up kill with Snipe and Aimed Shot in the first round. Cyclon would be a lot better if we didn't have the Super String problem.
Sometimes there are 4-5 enemies. You can dispatch 2 of them from the first turn with the "main" crossbow with Snipe and Aimed Shot, and then CC another 2, so you only have to deal with 1.
 

ST'Ranger

Augur
Joined
Oct 23, 2014
Messages
306
Because of 25% crit-bonus? Please.

ST'Ranger said:
You're dismissing crit damage bonus?

:hmmm:

I think if you are fair-minded you could agree with me that saying "crit-based builds aren't viable" when you specifically mean crit-chance builds (when speaking of Crossbows, which are all about crit damage) is, at best, misleadingly ambiguous.

I apologize that the tiny portion of that screenshot doesn't have every detail, I was only interested in showing the relationship between base crit damage and actual crit damage to demonstrate that every point of crit damage above 100% is highly valuable.

I don't see the point in whipping out calculators and seeing whether Aimed Shot with AA Zephyr or Snipe with Tornado is better (Snipe is definitely better, assuming you pump Stealth) because I am advocating using both of them. Snipe with Tornado (that's why I like Scope on it just as much as HR) then Aimed Shot with AA Zephyr. You can see that the crossbow in that snippet deals almost 500% damage with Aimed Shot. I honestly don't mean to be rude or antagonistic, I just think I have a mistaken impression that everyone is highly familiar with these things and so am trying to make my case very plainly.

TCHORTSTRONK.png

If for some reason I had to choose between my Tornado and my AA Zephyr, I would choose the AA Zephyr because its potential for massive damage spikes can be used, if necessary, more than once per engagement. This is why I feel forced to name Zephyr the best crossbow model at the current time. But there is no need to make this choice.

I don't see the need to argue over whether this method or the Cyclon secondary method are better. I originally came into this discussion simply to point out that "crit-based builds aren't viable" was false (or as was the case, just ambiguous/misleading). I'm more or less satisfied that I got the point across. I also use a Pneumatic Cyclon as a "third" weapon occasionally and am not about to argue against its use in general.
 
Last edited:

ghostdog

Arcane
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Joined
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11,086
This is the first game I've spent so much time with crafting... and the most amazing thing is that I'm enjoying it. :)
 

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