Torment Torment: Tides of Numenera Pre-Release Thread [ALPHA RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

[861129]

sigh. I tried explaining about the "metaphysics" of turn-based combat, earlier, to which his response was to stop responding.

 

[Akratus]

This is so strange. The points he is making work against his own arguments. . .

He says that Fallout was turn based because of technological limitations, and then goes on to say how Fallout 2 was rushed because of apparent greed for a quick sequel. This shows more that they didn't even bother considering a change in mechanics rather than not being able to do it. He also gives no reason as to why Fallout 1 was turn based because of any supposed technological limitations.

"There is no fine-grained control in turn based systems."

Yeah, that argument just defeats itself.

"We're not talking about board games, we're talking about the story."

Just, fucking, what? This is not only baffling but defeated on the premise of gameplay having fucking segregation from story.

"My problem exists primarily with the turn based system on top of a real time system. That is a turn-based combat system on top of a real-time exploration one. Without a setting and without storytelling we only have reality to fall back on. And reality is real-time. So why are people standing around doing these actions in turns, where is the story here?"

I guess Smud is now confirmed for being both a retard when it comes to gameplay mechanics, as well as an immersion fag.

EDIT:

"And overall the jump to 3d real-time was a fantastic improvement on just about every level. The rendering of the story in Fallout 3 is so much more detailed and visual and real. As is the very detailed 3d combat and vats, though not perfect, is a very fantastic and detailed, gory job, of how brutal life is like in the wasteland."

 

[hiver]

Thats a scum fucking retard shitstain youre talking to there people... just be aware of it.

Its not about explaining things or presenting well supported arguments - at all. Its just about a stupid shit and his extreme emotional engagement. Therefore all arguments that do not support it will be disregarded, ignored and misunderstood - at best.
That brain hemorrhoid is not even capable of accepting any new info that contradicts this base "desire". Thats a biodrone youre talkin to there.

He is basically right on #5, the whole debate is fucking stupid and always has been, and it is unfortunate that you gave him the ammo to shoot down this strawman in addition to arranging his other stupid arguments... essentially his video doesn't look as stupid as it could have because he gets to shoot down your false dichotomy between TB/RTWP in which an either/or debate can occur.

Go tell us how it was at that Ubisoft party again, wont you?

What strawman are you talking about?

5) You are retarded when you argue that TB is qualitatively better than RTWP

This one?


-edited-

 

[Grunker]

eh... you realize that isn't my own opinion but my recap of smudboy's opinions which sea requested, don't you?

of course you don't, way to outdo yourself, hiver

my entire point is that the systems are not equal and can't be qualitatively compared like they were two different versions of a toyota fucking yaris

 

[Jibble Sandwich]

Had this to say about his first video. Really, really disappointed with this guy because I liked listening to him tear Bioshock Infinite's narrative a new one. But it seams he's not nearly as well versed when it comes to gameplay. And from my experience and what some of you have to say, his strategy for when he's losing an argument is to stop responding and make a new video fellating his own arguments that have already been dismantled.

 

[Lord Andre]

I want TB in this game because I want TB in this game. That would be the truth. No other reason. If I had to give actual reasons then I would have to reverse engineer my own decision making process which is always a subjective task even for the most rational and smart people. Giving it a little thought, I did come up with two reasons that I think are rather interesting:

1. In a dialogue heavy game with philosophy (low level ph. but ph. still) I like a slow pace. I read the big blocks of text twice trying to determine if there is value there, I read item description and books and other lore dispensers in a lazy, inquisitive fashion akin to how one would drink a glass of very old brandy. It's a difficult pace to settle in because it's different from the pace of adult life when one is always juggling time and tasks. Now, when it's time for combat I don't want to be taken out of that pace because it's so hard to get into in the first place. Turn based is perfect for keeping that pace. RTwP is not. RTwP may be suited for BG2 where the non-combat pace is also faster and one-line dialogue abounds.

Thus, I would argue against Smudboy and others like him that keeping the same rhythm between non-combat and combat is key to not breaking immersion and more so than his obsession with fluid action across the board. I also have a suspicion that having not played PST they think the overall pace is similar to BG2 or DAO. It's not.

2. The setting implies a large number of artifacts, most of which can be used in combat in an indirect way. That means a lot of effects that go beyond the scope of "deals 30 damage in 5 ft. radius". I want to experiment and observe each of these effects to the fullest. TB would allow that since only one supernatural effect happens on screen at a given time. In RTwP all those unique effects would blend with each other and become indistinguishable as a cornucopia of different colored lights and bloom cover the screen in a gigantic mess, searing my retinas in the process. No thanks.

As far as which system allows for better tactics, I think the importance of the system itself pales in comparison to the importance of encounter design, variety of abilities and items and variety of enemies. So ultimately who cares.

On a last note, whenever he talks about TB in his video, it shows a pokemon-looking, "console from 20 years ago" game. Dick move and a cheap trick. That is not the type of TB his detractors are talking about.

 

[Infinitron]

Just show him (and all other butthurt TB haters) this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=1iXkJE8xoHQ#t=77



1:17

 

[tuluse]

2. The setting implies a large number of artifacts, most of which can be used in combat in an indirect way. That means a lot of effects that go beyond the scope of "deals 30 damage in 5 ft. radius". I want to experiment and observe each of these effects to the fullest. TB would allow that since only one supernatural effect happens on screen at a given time. In RTwP all those unique effects would blend with each other and become indistinguishable as a cornucopia of different colored lights and bloom cover the screen in a gigantic mess, searing my retinas in the process. No thanks.

He would probably say it should work like PST when you used an ability and the entire game paused for the animation.

 

[hiver]

eh... you realize that isn't my own opinion but my recap of smudboy's opinions which sea requested, don't you?
of course you don't, way to outdo yourself, hiver
my entire point is that the systems are not equal and can't be qualitatively compared like they were two different versions of a toyota fucking yaris

Yes i do. I wasnt referring to that recap but your statement :

"He is basically right on #5, the whole debate is fucking stupid and always has been, and it is unfortunate that you gave him the ammo to shoot down this strawman in addition to arranging his other stupid arguments... essentially his video doesn't look as stupid as it could have because he gets to shoot down your false dichotomy between TB/RTWP in which an either/or debate can occur."

I mean, thats a recap but you agree and think his point no.5 is correct?

The two systems are different, of course - but that does not mean they are relatively on some level which makes it impossible to compare the two - especially when we are discussing their role in a specific system such as future Torment gameplay translation of Numenera PnP rules - IS.

Besides that- TB is a better system at things that both systems use or try to present. IT IS BETTER in making character skills more important, IT IS better in increasing the tactics importance in combat, IT IS better fitted for a game that will have less combat encounters and whose gameplay wont be based just on combat. IT IS better for the Torment specifically because it WILL result in some resource, time and money savings which WILL BE transferred into creation and improvement of quality of the rest of the game content.

It IS also better in displaying realism of combat, however surprising that may sound to superficial idiots - because it creates a "costly gameplay" mechanics instead of splurges of speedy clicking and lessens the capability of player skills to cheat and abuse deficiencies of RTWP combat systems and Ai.

While both systems have their own specifics which cannot be directly compared in any sensible way - like the retarded "speed and immershun of RTwP" dumbfuckery.

 

[Lord Andre]

2. The setting implies a large number of artifacts, most of which can be used in combat in an indirect way. That means a lot of effects that go beyond the scope of "deals 30 damage in 5 ft. radius". I want to experiment and observe each of these effects to the fullest. TB would allow that since only one supernatural effect happens on screen at a given time. In RTwP all those unique effects would blend with each other and become indistinguishable as a cornucopia of different colored lights and bloom cover the screen in a gigantic mess, searing my retinas in the process. No thanks.

He would probably say it should work like PST when you used an ability and the entire game paused for the animation.

Probably, but my point isn't that I want to see every eye candy animation at a time, my point was that I will not be able to use - my "gravity sphere's" ability of making items heavier in it's vicinity - in an effective way, because it's low key effect will be buried under 4 different flavored fireballs going off on screen at the same time. Think BG2 battle with 4 mages casting at the same time along with clerics and so on, lighting up the screen like a xmas tree.

 

[tuluse]

For the record, I think it is a stupid idea and it was stupid in PST, but I think that's what smudboy wants.

 

[Athelas]

Given Torment's roots as a jRPG, it should obviously have turnbased combat.

Spoiler

 

[Oesophagus]

Turn-based games are notorious for their lack of fairness. Chess is considered one of the least "fair" games ever because you can't react during your opponent's turns.

Well duh, don't you know anything? Not only is it unfair, it is also less tactical than RT, that's why all the grandmasters play chess real time

 

[Akratus]

Then suddenly it's all about who's the fastest and not who's the most tactical.

Hey, just like strategy games.

 

[Xor]

I was going to write up a brief response to the latest video, but it basically just boiled down to "immersion is overrated", and I don't feel like having my arguments nitpicked if smud decides to make another masturbatory 30 minute video analyzing a forum post.

 

[Invictus]

Believe me Xor you are not missing anything; for alternatives of a similiar vein you could put your head in an oven or watch some MTV

 

[hiver]

Its not a matter of some unique "immershun" as a property of RT systems - as ive explained to that moron and others like him - there is plenty of immershun in Tb combat and there is plenty of immershun in other systems too - but the type of immershun is system specific. It is different for each system and each game.

A good TB combat gives plenty of immershun and tension and terror and fist bumping and screaming.

BUT IT DOES SO IN A DIFFERENT FUCKING WAY then some RTwP system which achieves this - for those retards - through sense of "speed" and through superficial special effects, graphikz and ego fellation - i.e. retarded shallow stupid shit.

-

 

[MicoSelva]

I've watched the video and it made me feel sad. The first one was funny in a WTF kind of way, but this one's just too long, boring and depressing, because over the course of 33 minutes the viewer slowly realizes that this guy actually believes all what he says.

 

[Infinitron]

Unsubscribed from smudboy

 

[St. Toxic]

Bullshit. The core of phase based is separation of planning and execution phases (duh!).

But separating input from execution isn't merely some cosmetic difference; it has a profound impact on gameplay. Particularly when it comes to character reaction and sequence. With char-alternated tb you're forced to compete for the fastest reaction time, and whoever wins it gets a turn advantage over the opponent. Sequence then gives the characters a definite turn position, giving you the ability to play around opponents or plan for multi-char bursts, provided of course that you know their turn pos.

Since you don't have turns in phase-based, other than the recurring 1 turn of plan+exec which everyone gets simultaneously, you end up relying entirely on stats and board position to maintain an advantage. Various spd mods add a definite realtime element to the system, by essentially acting as clocks counting the units before a certain action can be performed. Pretty close to the abstraction of AP prevalent in tb, but def. closer to straight-up time measurement of rt.

Whether the execution phase is executed as simultaneous or consequential actions is completely irrelevant. Wizardry and Bard's Tale are phase-based, and they have turn-based execution.

It is irrelevant because, at least if I understand you correctly, the execution phase is always going to be both simultaneous and consequential (did you mean sequential?); how could it be otherwise? IIRC In Bard's Tale the information of a given combat round is presented in the order of some spd value (attack priority?), with the planning phase obv. up to the player to decide by altering the configuration of the party.

However, if represented graphically it would still look like a ffa with everyone wailing at each other simultaneously, and even if you cut the actions up into turns and have everyone go one at a time it still wouldn't actually change the fact that the characters are acting simultaneously within that phase -- they're still synchronized. If that's an argument against the necessity of simultaneity in phase-based games, the same could be said about variables like range and distance preventing the characters from doing their designated tasks all at once.

What you need in order for a phase-based system to turn into tb, are for the phases to be separate for each individual participant. First Player 1 plans and goes, then Player 2 etc. If you instead plan simultaneously, and only then divide the execution up into turns, it's pretty much the same thing as rt with an action-focus cam.

how is phase-based not a derivative of turn based?

Now there's a loaded question. If it was derived from tb, it certainly didn't stay true to its roots as phase based def. has more in common with rtwp than tb. The most obvious example, I think, would be the 1-turn double-KO, which is possible as is in rt and phase-based systems, and impossible in tb without things like persisting status effects, self inflicted damage and off-turn retaliatory strikes. It really goes to show how tb combat relies on a completely unrealistic pseudo-timeframe to immersionbreakingly function as it does.

Speaking of which, who's this smudboy character?

As I stated before, many times, you do not put two different metaphysical systems, one on top the other, without proper explanation. It's the equivalent of watching a movie, then, seeing a scene of a boxing match happen in turns.

It's not an opinion that there's a difference in time between the two systems. These are what my eyes are seeing. If you like that, yes, that's an opinion. People can like contradictory things. Designs that contradict my perceptions of bloody time don't sit well with me.

And why isn't he arguing for rt dialogs rather than combat?

 

[861129]

he is familiar to Codex because he did a very thorough and amusing job of critiquing the plotline of the Mass Effect sequels.

 

[Brotherman Bill]

Why are we discussing a youtube c-list celebrity with a really stupid name?

Also why are youtube videos so bloated? An argument about something stupid like this, 30 minutes? If you prefer looking at youtube to reading you are already stupid and dull, why would you want to listen to something which takes 30 minutes to explain?

 

[Maculo]

That is a really disappointing video and I stopped it after a few minutes.

I liked his Mass Effect criticism, but I can't help but feel he is caught in the trap of his game design degree. He reminds me of talking to a sociologist.

 

[Rahdulan]

Uh oh.

Too bad I have to go to work. Someone wanna give me the Coles/Cliff Notes version?

I honestly think you should watch it because mere bullet points really won't do any justice to his THIS IS WRONG BECAUSE I SAY SO "arguments".

 

[Ninjerk]

I haven't watched the video but waitaminute- he has a game design degree?!