Putting the 'role' back in role-playing games since 2002.
Donate to Codex
Good Old Games
  • Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.

    "This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.

Torment Torment: Tides of Numenera Beta Thread [GAME RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

Sherry

Arcane
Joined
Jan 17, 2017
Messages
404
Location
Shrine of Compassion
Hi!

I am sorry to go a little off topic but I was wondering if anyone won any of the free keys from the raffle over at another site I visit for a game called Neverwinter Nights because it was free on GOG I downloaded it and was told to go to the website where all kinds of player made adventures are and when I got there was a banner for this game and a raffle entry to win free game keys. Looks like I missed out on creating an account and entering the raffle because you do not need an account to download from the website and I appreciate that with all the free content available it might be awhile before I play something else before Deadfire comes out.

This game looks a lot like Pillars of Eternity style adventure so I am kind of bummed I missed the opportunity to enter the raffle but did anyone else win one? The site I am talking about is for Neverwinter Nights 1 and Neverwinter Nights 2. The raffle ended on Friday though. :cry:

Raffle! Torment: Tides of Numenera

Hello!

Thanks to the kind people at GOG - AGAIN - and that completely subtle banner on the front page (check it out) announcing the Torment: Tides of Numenera preorder;

we've been given ten keys to the preorder, including the bonus package
to raffle away.

Oh shoot they took the banner down while I was typing this up but here is the raffle thread the banner linked to with the winners.

I am really shocked to see it was not posted in this thread before because the Deadfire thread is full of information as it immediately becomes available.

tldr.png
I missed out on a raffle for a free key for this game. :cry:

Thanks,
Randal
 

Luckmann

Arcane
Zionist Agent
Joined
Jul 20, 2009
Messages
3,759
Location
Scandinavia
I don't think I've mentioned how hilarious it is to have The Sawyer Sorrow be an Angel Agent of Balance. It genuinely makes me wonder if it's an intentional well-spirited jab, or purely coincidental.

I understand that pacing and exposition is important. But I'm just saying, alot of people say that the game is ruined, because the game gives away all the "mystery" from the start of the game, well what if the premise and start of the game information and exposition isn't supposed to be the big mystery or overall story, but there's alot more to it, then just what has been revealed so far? I don't neccesarily see a problem with knowing the premise of the game, if the story has alot more to offer, than just the basic stuff we know already. But yeah, we'll see. If the game really has nothing more to offer in terms of the overall plot and story that has been revealed, then that will be disappointing.

It doesn't change the fact that the reveal of such things in a better way would've added to the game. While revealing such things isn't necessarily earth-shattering, it's definitely detrimental; lore-dumps always are. Dumping the entirety of the premise of the story in the lap of the would-be player is terrible, terrible pacing and storytelling, and I think the biggest worry is that it's symptomatic of poor writing. It's very obvious that it's not "meant to be the big mystery or [the] overall story". We all know the premise of Planescape: Torment, but how many of us knew that when we were waking up on that slab? We all know the premise of Baldur's Gate, but how many of us understood it when Sarevok cut us down?

This information, the premises, doesn't constitute the big mysteries or the entirety of the overall story, nor the actual events of the games, but the piecing-together is part of the narrative as we come to an understanding as to our role in the greater scope of things, our motivations, and so on and so forth. It's no less idiotic than seeing "What does one life matter?" plastered everywhere and pitched as the philosophical foundation of the game (and I'm in no way convinced that this will not just be an moral lecture on how everyone is equal and each individual is a unique and valuable member of creation and infinity, kumbaya), whereas in Planescape: Torment, this foundation was subtle, posed to you by the enigmatic Ravel, quite far into the game.

[...] There are things that are supposed to change in the world when you sleep, though it's unclear how much of that got implemented.

[....]
If it's any more than a single tangible change mid-game or something like that (which will be there regardless of whether you sleep or not) I'll eat my hat. This is another one of those intangible "wouldn't it be cool if"-features that never makes it, because it takes a lot to implement and it tends to add very little.

The only thing we know for sure is that there's minor difference between night and day for some quests. Stressing the minor, here.
 
Last edited:

Maculo

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Jul 30, 2013
Messages
2,545
Strap Yourselves In Pathfinder: Wrath
I have been looking over InXile updates to see what I (mis)remember. The first one was March 6, 2013. That feels like ages ago.
 

prodigydancer

Arcane
In My Safe Space
Joined
Feb 16, 2015
Messages
1,399
Let's also not forget the cut content so quickly.
Don't you see the huge leap between complaining about cut content and outright telling the developer "fuck you, your game isn't good enough for me" by cancelling your pledge? Next time anyone asks why it took the industry 12 years to even start working on another Torment game, I'll just link this thread.

I'm not against high standards. I was disappointed with many things about TToN too, and I made some pretty harsh posts on inXile forums, and most of what I said back then I'd certainly repeat today. But there's a very clear line between not being completely satisfied with the product and basically sending a don't-even-try-anymore message.

There's no pleasing a bunch of autistic edgelords, of course. Next serious attempt at making a Torment game? Not until 2029.
 

Maculo

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Jul 30, 2013
Messages
2,545
Strap Yourselves In Pathfinder: Wrath
Let's also not forget the cut content so quickly.
Don't you see the huge leap between complaining about cut content and outright telling the developer "fuck you, your game isn't good enough for me" by cancelling your pledge? Next time anyone asks why it took the industry 12 years to even start working on another Torment game, I'll just link this thread.

I'm not against high standards. I was disappointed with many things about TToN too, and I made some pretty harsh posts on inXile forums, and most of what I said back then I'd certainly repeat today. But there's a very clear line between not being completely satisfied with the product and basically sending a don't-even-try-anymore message.

There's no pleasing a bunch of autistic edgelords, of course. Next serious attempt at making a Torment game? Not until 2029.
There is a difference between "fuck you, your game isn't good enough for me" and "I will not give you money until I see the final product." I see it as no different than a preorder. The game may turn out alright on release, and I will buy it if it does turn out good. Until then, I do not feel like preordering a game I have doubts about.

Also, several posters hated PoE, but I do not think anyone said "don't even try anymore" to Obsidian. Moreover, at least Obsidian acknowledged some of the disappointing aspects on PoE (story execution, load times, combat, etc). Therefore, I think it is fair to say that there are plenty more issues going on with InXile than just disappointing updates at the moment.
 

Grotesque

±¼ ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Patron
Vatnik
Joined
Apr 16, 2012
Messages
9,020
Divinity: Original Sin Divinity: Original Sin 2
Even though I've received a full refund, I see that the game is still in my Steam library?
When/how it will be revoked?
 

Elthosian

Arcane
Joined
Mar 14, 2012
Messages
1,138
It doesn't change the fact that the reveal of such things in a better way would've added to the game. While revealing such things isn't necessarily earth-shattering, it's definitely detrimental; lore-dumps always are. Dumping the entirety of the premise of the story in the lap of the would-be player is terrible, terrible pacing and storytelling, and I think the biggest worry is that it's symptomatic of poor writing. It's very obvious that it's not "meant to be the big mystery or [the] overall story". We all know the premise of Planescape: Torment, but how many of us knew that when we were waking up on that slab? We all know the premise of Baldur's Gate, but how many of us understood it when Sarevok cut us down?

This information, the premises, doesn't constitute the big mysteries or the entirety of the overall story, nor the actual events of the games, but the piecing-together is part of the narrative as we come to an understanding as to our role in the greater scope of things, our motivations, and so on and so forth. It's no less idiotic than seeing "What does one life matter?" plastered everywhere and pitched as the philosophical foundation of the game (and I'm in no way convinced that this will not just be an moral lecture on how everyone is equal and each individual is a unique and valuable member of creation and infinity, kumbaya), whereas in Planescape: Torment, this foundation was subtle, posed to you by the enigmatic Ravel, quite far into the game.

To be fair, most of the information regarding the premise of the game was revealed long ago, either during the Kickstarter campaign or along the way in the development updates. It would have been very hard for inXile to bait in so many people and provide interesting updates while keeping the experience as clean as a blind run of PS:T, if I recall correctly Obsidian did it a bit better but arguably PoE was a game where the plot was just one of the selling points. One could argue that players who didn't follow the KS campaign + updates have a reason to get angry but I don't think that's the case for most here.

This, of course, doesn't excuse the other fuckups (I asked for a partial refund, too), nor does it remove any weight from your arguments, but I don't really think it could have been handled much better.

______________________________________________________________________________

By the way, what ended up happening with the tide-based sequence from the first beta? Did it get cut?
 

t

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Aug 24, 2008
Messages
1,303
Codex 2014 PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015 Serpent in the Staglands Divinity: Original Sin Torment: Tides of Numenera Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 BattleTech A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire
Even though I've received a full refund, I see that the game is still in my Steam library?
When/how it will be revoked?
I think beta will expire when the full release comes and you will just don't get the new version.
 
Joined
Jun 10, 2014
Messages
515
Location
The last dictatorship of Europe
Tbqh, to my mind, the whole kickstarter model doesn't really support refunds. It's just that in many projects (espectially in this one!) you back the basic idea, not specific details. InXile had nothing but plans when coming to Kickstarter, and backing such a project is a gamble.
So it's good for them to refund unsatisfied backers. In a way it may partly restore their karma. Of course it doesn't negate the miscommunication and all their latest errors. But still.
 
Last edited:

Grotesque

±¼ ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Patron
Vatnik
Joined
Apr 16, 2012
Messages
9,020
Divinity: Original Sin Divinity: Original Sin 2
New angry mob controversy: "inXile didn't revoke my key quickly enough!!!!!:argh::argh::argh::argh::argh:"
what's up!?
people on the official forums got on your nerves with their whining about cut content and crushed dreams and you come here to vent?
 

inwoker

Arcane
Glory to Ukraine
Joined
Apr 27, 2007
Messages
15,685
Location
Kyiv, Ukraine
Wow, so this game is shit? Because what, trailer reveals premise of the game? And because some content was cut? Guess what, original planescape had plenty of cut content. And premise of the game was revealed to many people by their friends and articles in magazines. Didn't make the game any less enjoyable.

Had somebody actually played Early access version? How is it?
 

KK1001

Arbiter
Joined
Mar 30, 2015
Messages
621
InExile is passing off a management problem as a "communication" issue. But the fact is they overpromised to get more money, squandered said funds badly through mismanagement, and realized all too late (or intentionally concealed very early on) that everything couldn't be done.
 

Prime Junta

Guest
If it's any more than a single tangible change mid-game or something like that (which will be there regardless of whether you sleep or not) I'll eat my hat. This is another one of those intangible "wouldn't it be cool if"-features that never makes it, because it takes a lot to implement and it tends to add very little.

There's at least one situation in the beta where this happens.
 

Luckmann

Arcane
Zionist Agent
Joined
Jul 20, 2009
Messages
3,759
Location
Scandinavia
Wow, so this game is shit? Because what, trailer reveals premise of the game? And because some content was cut? Guess what, original planescape had plenty of cut content. And premise of the game was revealed to many people by their friends and articles in magazines. Didn't make the game any less enjoyable.

Had somebody actually played Early access version? How is it?

It's not that "some" content was cut, it's what content was cut, why, and that they tried to keep secret about it up until release, despite said content having been promised to backers and marketed to customers, often long after the initial Kickstarter pitch.

The trailer is just symptomatic of inXile's delivery of the premise and the storytelling in the game itself. Even if you, for whatever reason, somehow knew the entirety of the premise of Planescape: Torment when you started playing (what the fuck?), this is not how the delivery was made within the game itself, nor was there a cinematic telling you the entirety of it before the game started, or in promotional material. I think what annoys many is that it also goes far beyond the massive lore-dumps in the beginning of the game.

Sears made a comment on plebbit about how they worked close with Techland to get the script of the trailer "right", which leads me to believe that it's their idea, and the shitty exposition is intended to not overly confuse or overwhelm the console retards the game was made for. Otherwise they might go two minutes without knowing what's going on and grow frustrated.

Also, I played Early Access a bit. I stopped because it was meh and I became disillusioned with the more major cuts.
 

fobia

Guest
Let's also not forget the cut content so quickly.
Don't you see the huge leap between complaining about cut content and outright telling the developer "fuck you, your game isn't good enough for me" by cancelling your pledge? Next time anyone asks why it took the industry 12 years to even start working on another Torment game, I'll just link this thread.

Why would you think that's the message sent to the developer, when you request a refund?
Backing such a game is about trust, at least imo. So when a developer doesn't inform you about significant cuts and/or changes, a lot of that trust is lost.
Especially when you're informed only after people find out about said stuff and start asking questions (and arguably try to start a shitstorm).
It just seems quite dishonest.

I think a lot of people would've reacted differently, if those cuts and changes were communicated openly and earlier.
So a refund is good solution for both sides. Disappointed backers can get back some or all of their monies and InXile doesn't lose too much credibility.
Damage control basically.

Also as others already said, I doubt they'll be losing tons of funds.
 

Luckmann

Arcane
Zionist Agent
Joined
Jul 20, 2009
Messages
3,759
Location
Scandinavia
Let's also not forget the cut content so quickly.
Don't you see the huge leap between complaining about cut content and outright telling the developer "fuck you, your game isn't good enough for me" by cancelling your pledge? Next time anyone asks why it took the industry 12 years to even start working on another Torment game, I'll just link this thread.

Why would you think that's the message sent to the developer, when you request a refund?
Backing such a game is about trust, at least imo. So when a developer doesn't inform you about significant cuts and/or changes, a lot of that trust is lost.
Especially when you're informed only after people find out about said stuff and start asking questions (and arguably try to start a shitstorm).
It just seems quite dishonest.

I think a lot of people would've reacted differently, if those cuts and changes were communicated openly and earlier.
So a refund is good solution for both sides. Disappointed backers can get back some or all of their monies and InXile doesn't lose too much credibility.
Damage control basically.

Also as others already said, I doubt they'll be losing tons of funds.

My thinking is this - crowdfunding is a way to fund things that would have trouble surviving or being made otherwise, and as a way to avoid the penny-pinching and quality-compromising tendencies of publishers, who regularly are more interested in profit maximization for themselves and shareholders rather than the success and purpose of the product in itself. It replaces the shareholders of a publisher with a crowd of would-be enthusiasts, as the main financiers of the endeavor in question.

Most essentially, the backers becomes the financiers, and instead of profit, what they are looking for is the product for the purpose of the product itself, rather than monetary gain. The mutual understanding between the developer of the product and the backers is that this is the goal of the developers as well - not to make a profit, but to keep doing what they want to do, what they want to work with, having been paid "in advance" based on the implied promise of a given product. Monetary incentives essentially fulfilled, this allows niche products to be produced, rather than having to reduce products to the most profitable lowest common denominator in an effort to hopefully secure funds for another project.

Not understanding any of this isn't just something inXile is guilty of, but many other Kickstarter projects, but it is in no way less of a betrayal of trust. This much has often been said to backers that themselves do not understand this relationship, that they are backers financing a project, not customers buying a product, when the projects start breaking down. On a fundamental level, I think that no backer is somehow entitled to a refund any more than the shareholders of a bankrupt publisher, unless there can be proof of malicious intent and thus be a legal issue. However, that's an issue of legality, not morality, as many grassroots capitalists playing the stock-market game or unscrupulous swindlers can tell you.

My point here is that inXile clearly haven't been treating their backers in the way they should've been; as actual fucking financiers of their actual fucking product. They are, on at the very least a moral level, obligated to tell backers what's going on, and keep them updated as to what has been cut, why, and how. This has clearly not happened. I would be much more fine with inXile saying "no refunds" - which is completely legitimate from this perspective - if they had done that, because the money that has gone into the project is spent, it's not there anymore, it's gone into the project, as funding is wont to do. Just ask any publisher with a failed project out there, that ended up pulling the plug rather than fall for the sunk cost fallacy.

InXile has essentially treated this as a sold product, and their backers as run-of-the-mill customers, and as customers, they need not be informed of the product before purchase (which is a terrible market practice in itself, but all-too-common), and have treated their monetary windfall from the crowdfunding as revenue that they themselves have invested into projects. Now they're acting with flabbergasted surprise when people are upset that the original pitch came out as dust and money have essentially vaporized. Backers financed a niche product, putting money up-front for the development of that product, and they're getting a mass-marketed consolized game with all the caveats of a publisher attached that is far from what was promised, and meanwhile, mental midgets are trying to make comparisons to how things "are always cut during development" or "things were cut from Planescape: Torment, too", or "the game might not suck anyway", or some inane argument that is completely beside the fucking point.

The worst part is that without both insight and feedback, the backers lack the economical and corporate-political clout to actually do anything about it, and inXile is free to do this shit again. Hell, the vast majority of the crowds that have been funding this are still blissfully unaware or uncaring, many have even forgotten that they backed this to begin with, meaning that the fallout isn't even likely to be very major come release. All that can be done is to vote with our wallets and be hesitant to back in the future, and as with all these forms of products for what essentially is niche products (I am sure they console version will pay for itself, but it won't be a huge success by any means), they're kept alive by fans and enthusiasts, not just momentarily, but for years to come, and it's enthusiasts that drum up interest for crowdfunding and become ecstatic at a pitch. Take that away, and all inXile has done is shoot themselves in the foot with a 12 gauge shotgun.

I'm sure they'll be around for years to come, but without a fanatical fanbase of enthusiasts, going more and more for mass-appeal mediocrity, where will they be, and where'll their crowdfunding be? Fucking nowhere, that's where. And major publishers and developers sure as hell aren't going to get on this train, because the costs/profit ratio isn't high enough - something that shouldn't concern enthusiastic workers at a relatively small company that depends on crowdfunding of niche products, but it's everything, the world, and then some, to corporate shareholders whose only contribution to the industry consists of owning stakes and that make all their money based on post-production sales and revenue projections.

Fargo and inXile has behaved no different than Activision, Electronic Arts, or [insert satanic overlord here], and while I'm not going to make it some personal crusade to see them shot for it, they should absolutely be ashamed of it; but they're clearly not, because they're just continuing the cult of silence, in regards to just what content has been cut, the state of the game, and how it relates to features and aspects of it that has been mentioned not only during the pitch, but as part of marketing material and interviews.
 
Last edited:

inwoker

Arcane
Glory to Ukraine
Joined
Apr 27, 2007
Messages
15,685
Location
Kyiv, Ukraine
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2017-01-31-torment-tides-of-numenera-apology-stretch-goals

So I researched a little bit and InExile faults:
1)They cut out crafting. Which is actually good thing. And added some artifacts and surgery instead.(incline)
2)They cut out 2 out of 8 companions.(decline)
3)They cut out 2 cults(decline)
4)And also they have shown in the trailer with the premise of the game which was already told by Colin Mccomb in the very first kickstarter video.
5)Considering the possibility that 99% of that content will go into Director's cut - the issue is non-existent at all.
6)If the actual writing is bad, plot and characters are bland it would not matter at all but will be the issue in itself. And then it would not matter if content was cut or not.

My conclusion - Codex is a bunch of fucking crybabies.
 
Last edited:

Infinitron

I post news
Staff Member
Joined
Jan 28, 2011
Messages
97,497
Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
http://www.alistdaily.com/strategy/...story-torment-tides-numenera-prepares-launch/

After Making Crowdfunding History, ‘Torment: Tides of Numenera’ Prepares For Launch

Planescape: Torment released in 1999 and grew to become one of the greatest cult hits in video game history, and fans were overjoyed when a campaign for a follow-up, Torment: Tides of Numenera, was proposed on Kickstarter more than a decade later in 2013. The campaign quickly broke records by being the fastest game to reach $1 million, which is $100,000 past its initial $900,000 goal. Then it broke another record when it brought in over $4 million in funding, making it Kickstarter’s biggest video game campaign of all time.

It’s been a long journey from its Kickstarter origins, including a release on Steam Early Access last year, but the game is just a few weeks away from its official February 28 launch date. The developer, inXile Entertainment is well-versed in crowdfunding and producing top-quality role-playing games, having run a very successful Kickstarter campaign for Wasteland 2 while launching the one for Torment.

Brian Fargo, CEO of inXile Entertainment, spoke to [a]listdaily about bringing back a beloved franchise and what where a game can go after such a high-profile crowdfunding campaign.

BrianFargo-275x320.jpg

Brian Fargo, CEO of inXile Entertainment

What are some of the big lessons Torment: Tides of Numenera and Wasteland 2 taught you about crowdfunding?
Certainly, there are a number of lessons we can take away from a crowdfunding campaign. The first is that there is nothing as valuable as gameplay feedback from your audience. We can play the game internally for a thousand hours and apply our historical knowledge and instincts but we can never anticipate fully how the gamers will react to things. This has been critical in allowing us to make a better game.

We’ve also learned the need for strong communication. We make thousands of decisions during development that affect content and dates and we can lose track of the need to communicate these changes when they become solidified. I’ve often spoke to the difficulty of setting deadlines before the coding begins and the only way to buffer that risk is with communication.

How will you reach out past the initial audience of backers after the game launches? How does a game like Torment continue to grow after such a big and high-profile Kickstarter campaign?
Our games will only sell beyond our initial backers for the same reason that all games sell in greater numbers: quality. Crowdfunding gives us an opportunity, and making a game the way we want to make a game gives us awareness in a noisy field, but ultimately word-of-mouth is all you have after launch. Wasteland 2 sold well beyond the initial backers, as did games like Divinity: Original Sin and Pillars of Eternity.

Has Early Access helped to further promote the game?
Early Access helps both with awareness and the audience feedback I spoke of earlier. The amount of game releases these days is staggering, and it could take reading about or seeing a game over 100 times before your brain starts to really register it, so awareness through things like Early Access can be paramount.

How do you balance between expectations from Planescape: Torment fans and those who haven’t played it?
I think the number one question I get is some version of how we bridge these older games with the next in the series. Our philosophy is to identify which elements people loved in the previous game and try to hit those points in a fresh, non-derivative way. For Torment, we knew it was the writing, the bizarre nature of the world, the lack of emphasis on combat and the philosophical tones it struck. We took those points and have presented them in a unique way in Torment: Tides of Numenera and the players who loved Planescape: Torment have strongly indicated that they are happy with the way we did it.

Torment-TON-Screen1.jpg


Which do you think had a greater impact on Torment: Tides of Numenera’s early success, nostalgia for old school style RPGs or the Torment brand name?
It was all those factors coming together that made Torment: Tides of Numenera break the world record on Kickstarter for fastest to $1 million. As a producer, I look to find the right team, elements and timing to fund our games and make them sell. With our success, we can continue making these wonderful games.

Why do you think so many people still love Torment-style RPGs, when there are so many action shooter role-playing games out now?
We believe that good writing, deep cause and effect and novel storytelling can transcend a more action-oriented approach to RPGs. The talented folks at Telltale Games have certainly proven that you can do really great things with narrative and still have success. And even folks that play more action-oriented RPGs may enjoy trying something that moves at a different pace. I’ve enjoyed experimenting and pushing the art form with these RPGs.
 

Junmarko

† Cristo è Re †
Patron
Joined
Jun 20, 2011
Messages
3,480
Location
Schläfertempel
Let's also not forget the cut content so quickly.
Don't you see the huge leap between complaining about cut content and outright telling the developer "fuck you, your game isn't good enough for me" by cancelling your pledge? Next time anyone asks why it took the industry 12 years to even start working on another Torment game, I'll just link this thread.

Why would you think that's the message sent to the developer, when you request a refund?
Backing such a game is about trust, at least imo. So when a developer doesn't inform you about significant cuts and/or changes, a lot of that trust is lost.
Especially when you're informed only after people find out about said stuff and start asking questions (and arguably try to start a shitstorm).
It just seems quite dishonest.

I think a lot of people would've reacted differently, if those cuts and changes were communicated openly and earlier.
So a refund is good solution for both sides. Disappointed backers can get back some or all of their monies and InXile doesn't lose too much credibility.
Damage control basically.

Also as others already said, I doubt they'll be losing tons of funds.

My thinking is this - crowdfunding is a way to fund things that would have trouble surviving or being made otherwise, and as a way to avoid the penny-pinching and quality-compromising tendencies of publishers, who regularly are more interested in profit maximization for themselves and shareholders rather than the success and purpose of the product in itself. It replaces the shareholders of a publisher with a crowd of would-be enthusiasts, as the main financiers of the endeavor in question.

Most essentially, the backers becomes the financiers, and instead of profit, what they are looking for is the product for the purpose of the product itself, rather than monetary gain. The mutual understanding between the developer of the product and the backers is that this is the goal of the developers as well - not to make a profit, but to keep doing what they want to do, what they want to work with, having been paid "in advance" based on the implied promise of a given product. Monetary incentives essentially fulfilled, this allows niche products to be produced, rather than having to reduce products to the most profitable lowest common denominator in an effort to hopefully secure funds for another project.

Not understanding any of this isn't just something inXile is guilty of, but many other Kickstarter projects, but it is in no way less of a betrayal of trust. This much has often been said to backers that themselves do not understand this relationship, that they are backers financing a project, not customers buying a product, when the projects start breaking down. On a fundamental level, I think that no backer is somehow entitled to a refund any more than the shareholders of a bankrupt publisher, unless there can be proof of malicious intent and thus be a legal issue. However, that's an issue of legality, not morality, as many grassroots capitalists playing the stock-market game or unscrupulous swindlers can tell you.

My point here is that inXile clearly haven't been treating their backers in the way they should've been; as actual fucking financiers of their actual fucking product. They are, on at the very least a moral level, obligated to tell backers what's going on, and keep them updated as to what has been cut, why, and how. This has clearly not happened. I would be much more fine with inXile saying "no refunds" - which is completely legitimate from this perspective - if they had done that, because the money that has gone into the project is spent, it's not there anymore, it's gone into the project, as funding is wont to do. Just ask any publisher with a failed project out there, that ended up pulling the plug rather than fall for the sunk cost fallacy.

InXile has essentially treated this as a sold product, and their backers as run-of-the-mill customers, and as customers, they need not be informed of the product before purchase (which is a terrible market practice in itself, but all-too-common), and have treated their monetary windfall from the crowdfunding as revenue that they themselves have invested into projects. Now they're acting with flabbergasted surprise when people are upset that the original pitch came out as dust and money have essentially vaporized. Backers financed a niche product, putting money up-front for the development of that product, and they're getting a mass-marketed consolized game with all the caveats of a publisher attached that is far from what was promised, and meanwhile, mental midgets are trying to make comparisons to how things "are always cut during development" or "things were cut from Planescape: Torment, too", or "the game might not suck anyway", or some inane argument that is completely beside the fucking point.

The worst part is that without both insight and feedback, the backers lack the economical and corporate-political clout to actually do anything about it, and inXile is free to do this shit again. Hell, the vast majority of the crowds that have been funding this are still blissfully unaware or uncaring, many have even forgotten that they backed this to begin with, meaning that the fallout isn't even likely to be very major come release. All that can be done is to vote with our wallets and be hesitant to back in the future, and as with all these forms of products for what essentially is niche products (I am sure they console version will pay for itself, but it won't be a huge success by any means), they're kept alive by fans and enthusiasts, not just momentarily, but for years to come, and it's enthusiasts that drum up interest for crowdfunding and become ecstatic at a pitch. Take that away, and all inXile has done is shoot themselves in the foot with a 12 gauge shotgun.

I'm sure they'll be around for years to come, but without a fanatical fanbase of enthusiasts, going more and more for mass-appeal mediocrity, where will they be, and where'll their crowdfunding be? Fucking nowhere, that's where. And major publishers and developers sure as hell aren't going to get on this train, because the costs/profit ratio isn't high enough - something that shouldn't concern enthusiastic workers at a relatively small company that depends on crowdfunding of niche products, but it's everything, the world, and then some, to corporate shareholders whose only contribution to the industry consists of owning stakes and that make all their money based on post-production sales and revenue projections.

Fargo and inXile has behaved no different than Activision, Electronic Arts, or [insert satanic overlord here], and while I'm not going to make it some personal crusade to see them shot for it, they should absolutely be ashamed of it; but they're clearly not, because they're just continuing the cult of silence, in regards to just what content has been cut, the state of the game, and how it relates to features and aspects of it that has been mentioned not only during the pitch, but as part of marketing material and interviews.

Features:
*Higher word count than the Bible!
 

Haplo

Prophet
Patron
Joined
Sep 14, 2016
Messages
6,189
Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2017-01-31-torment-tides-of-numenera-apology-stretch-goals

So I researched a little bit and InExile faults:
1)They cut out crafting. Which is actually good thing. And added some artifacts and surgery instead.(incline)
2)They cut out 2 out of 8 companions.(decline)
3)They cut out 2 cults(decline)
4)And also they have shown in the trailer with the premise of the game which was already told by Colin Mccomb in the very first kickstarter video.
5)Considering the possibility that 99% of that content will go into Director's cut - the issue is non-existent at all.
6)If the actual writing is bad, plot and characters are bland it would not matter at all but will be the issue in itself. And then it would not matter if content was cut or not.

My conclusion - Codex is a bunch of fucking crybabies.

Yeah, sure. I can see them designing, writing and animating Toy companion for the DC version. Oh and designing the cut city and filling it with content, ambiance and quests.
Sure. InExile will make come clean on their promises.:desu:
 

As an Amazon Associate, rpgcodex.net earns from qualifying purchases.
Back
Top Bottom