ToEE with Temple+ Discussion

[Gauldur's Bait]

**SLIGHT SPOILERS**




Just finished ToEE for the first time with the c08 standard pack and Temple+ installed. Great great stuff. The combat must obviously be praised even though the going became a bit easy towards the end as my characters became lvl 10+ (I played with only a five character party), excluding the Balor. The easy combat towards the end was mostly due to Fragarach, that I "borrowed" from Prince Thrommel. Had I read the spell descriptions correctly and/or remembered that Protection from Evil in 3rd edition renders characters immune to fear spells and charms - that Balor fight would have been quite easy as well. Belsornig's posse, who I skipped in order to get access to the Temple (a "permission" which I suppose is not strictly necessary in order to advance), I am definitely going to take out in my next playthrough using a larger party and effective use of the PFE spell.

I did experience many Temple+ crashes during the Balor fight (and some randomly during the game, but never very critical ones except if I had forgotten to save...), I was using the 1.0.17 version (IIRC). Also the wand of chain lightning crashed Temple+ the only time I tried to use it (no spell animation played - it crashed immediately upon activation).

Of course, these slight annoyances are completely outdone by all the positives that T+ and Co8 have brought to the table.

Also, I managed to get Fragarach to miss (!). Maxing Power Attack, combat expertise AC, and setting Fight Defensively brought down the attack bonus to a very low number so that about 1/4 attack missed against Zuggtmoy. Further, I could not get whirlwind attack to work even once. I tried to activate it in all ways I could think of but it only used my up my turn and or/provoked an AoO.

I now did a complete re-install immediately after finishing the game, with the newest release of T+ and the c08 version with the extended content, ready to try out some new party combinations and the prestige classes.

 

[Tom Baker's Arse]

Just loaded up Temple+ this evening and it looks fucking amazing. Creating my first party ... have every member made except my Paladin, who I cannot seem to roll no matter what the dice gives me - anyone else have a problem rolling a Paladin, or am I just a fucking turd-brain ?

 

[Sitra Achara]

Just loaded up Temple+ this evening and it looks fucking amazing. Creating my first party ... have every member made except my Paladin, who I cannot seem to roll no matter what the dice gives me - anyone else have a problem rolling a Paladin, or am I just a fucking turd-brain ?

No, I'm the turd brain, it's a bug
For now you can work around the bug by selecting a different class, choosing alignment and then going back to class selection (and then Paladin should be available).

Edit: fixed in v1.0.38, out now.

 

[Tom Baker's Arse]

Just loaded up Temple+ this evening and it looks fucking amazing. Creating my first party ... have every member made except my Paladin, who I cannot seem to roll no matter what the dice gives me - anyone else have a problem rolling a Paladin, or am I just a fucking turd-brain ?

No, I'm the turd brain, it's a bug
For now you can work around the bug by selecting a different class, choosing alignment and then going back to class selection (and then Paladin should be available).

Edit: fixed in v1.0.38, out now.

Thanks so much for the fix, Sitra ! Thanks again for the amazing mod !

 

[Tom Baker's Arse]

My antivirus / security application (Bitdefender) detected Temple+ as a malicious app and promptly disinfected/removed the config exe and the main exe .... interesting

 

[Sitra Achara]

My antivirus / security application (Bitdefender) detected Temple+ as a malicious app and promptly disinfected/removed the config exe and the main exe .... interesting

Yeah I use Bitdefender too and had to add it to the exceptions :p

 

[Sykar]

I have finally gotten to install this old buggy game which drove me insane with corrupted saves ruining not one but two playthroughs after which I gave up on it for a long time. Now remembering that this had the best 3.5 ED combat imho of all the D&D games alongside crafting, a huge cast of recruitable NPCs and hoping there were some fixes out I have finally found installed Co8 and Temple+ and will hopefully enjoy the ride this time.

My only problem now is what characters to use. For old times sakes I will go with a 5 man party and so far came up with a nice gnome wizard so that part is settled. I am now wondering what I should chose for my diplomat, kinda torn between bard and rogue. Might be fun to play a charismatic rogue for once isntead of the same old sneak/backstab/disable/open locks guy but I am not sure what to give up.
I feel inclined to add a Sorceress to the mix might be nice having the Wizard

After that I want at least one divine caster thinking about trying the favored soul but it is hard to find any hard information what he can do. All I remember about that class is that it is a cleric which uses charisma instead of wisdom. What else is different from a cleric?

By the way is the Improved Initiative feat vital for all classes? Or just rogues for getting sneak attacks in asap?

 

[aweigh]

best 3.0/3.5 implementation "of all time" award goes to KotC.

 

[aweigh]

what does Temple+ add, btw? and what's the extended content?

bonus question: can one finally use remap keys? (i.e. use wasd to move camera)

 

[coldcrow]

Sykar
ToEE has an interactive help menu, look it up for yourself. Imp. Initiative certainly helps everyone, be it to get AoO dudes into position, get a critical debuff up etc. Not the most critical or powerful feat, but it helps. If you want a bit of a challenge, stay with the lvl 10 cap and give NPCs max HP. Some fights involving mutiple enemy classes can be quite funny then.

 

[Sitra Achara]

Favoured soul should be in the wiki, yeah.

what does Temple+ add, btw? and what's the extended content?

bonus question: can one finally use remap keys? (i.e. use wasd to move camera)

http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/index.php?threads/temple-changelog.99319/

 

[Cael]

Imp Initiative is more a caster feat than any other class. You want to be the first to get the Entangle or Web or any mass debuffing/damage spells off first. When you to get to rocket tag levels, you REALLY want your caster to go first.


Regarding Frag: The original Frag did not have an "always hits" ability. It has the Brilliant Energy ability, which allows it to ignore armour and shield bonuses to AC. For some reason, ToEE implemented it as "always hits". If Temple+ fixed that, you can quite easily miss the Balor (which has an AC of about 35, most of which is natural AC and Dex bonus that are unaffected by Brilliant Energy).

 

[Sitra Achara]

Regarding Frag: The original Frag did not have an "always hits" ability. It has the Brilliant Energy ability, which allows it to ignore armour and shield bonuses to AC. For some reason, ToEE implemented it as "always hits". If Temple+ fixed that, you can quite easily miss the Balor (which has an AC of about 35, most of which is natural AC and Dex bonus that are unaffected by Brilliant Energy).

I didn't change the always hit property, but it should always hit on retaliation strikes anyway. I guess Troika didn't bother to differentiate between normal attacks and the counter attacks. I wouldn't want to mess with it though because players are probably used to it that way, perhaps as an optional toggle...

 

[Cael]

Regarding Frag: The original Frag did not have an "always hits" ability. It has the Brilliant Energy ability, which allows it to ignore armour and shield bonuses to AC. For some reason, ToEE implemented it as "always hits". If Temple+ fixed that, you can quite easily miss the Balor (which has an AC of about 35, most of which is natural AC and Dex bonus that are unaffected by Brilliant Energy).

I didn't change the always hit property, but it should always hit on retaliation strikes anyway. I guess Troika didn't bother to differentiate between normal attacks and the counter attacks. I wouldn't want to mess with it though because players are probably used to it that way, perhaps as an optional toggle...

Sorry. Just to be clear, when I said "original Frag", I meant the original PnP version, not the one in the cRPG version of ToEE.

The one in the cRPG has always had the "always hit" function and that holds true whether it is an attack you initiated or a retaliatory attack. That is why it had a "bug" in it when a CG wielder hits the Balor, it goes into a continuous loop that crashes the game.

 

[nikolokolus]

Sorry. Just to be clear, when I said "original Frag", I meant the original PnP version, not the one in the cRPG version of ToEE.

The one in the cRPG has always had the "always hit" function and that holds true whether it is an attack you initiated or a retaliatory attack. That is why it had a "bug" in it when a CG wielder hits the Balor, it goes into a continuous loop that crashes the game.

I guess I'll go ahead and be an old fart grog. The first "Fragarach" comes from T1 - The Temple of Elemental Evil in 1st ed. AD&D. It only truly functions in the hand of a chaotic good character, and always hits against as many opponents as have struck at its possessor and always strikes last in the round. (Nevermind for the moment that Gary Gygax lifted it right out of Irish mythology).

 

[Neanderthal]

Thought Kelanen had Fragarach on Oerth, mind you might have gid it to Thrommel I suppose or lost it in some early Gygax adventure.

 

[Sykar]

best 3.0/3.5 implementation "of all time" award goes to KotC.

I do not know what that acronym stands for.

 

[Doctor Sbaitso]

best 3.0/3.5 implementation "of all time" award goes to KotC.

Much as I love KoTC it uses the limited open ruleset. I found the pacing in KoTC better and encounter design to be superior, but have to give the edge to ToEE IMO due to better character progression, more classes and abilities and much better crafting/enchanting.

 

[Doctor Sbaitso]

best 3.0/3.5 implementation "of all time" award goes to KotC.

I do not know what that acronym stands for.

Knight of the Chalice. If you haven't played it, go and do that.

 

[Sykar]

Imp Initiative is more a caster feat than any other class. You want to be the first to get the Entangle or Web or any mass debuffing/damage spells off first. When you to get to rocket tag levels, you REALLY want your caster to go first.


Regarding Frag: The original Frag did not have an "always hits" ability. It has the Brilliant Energy ability, which allows it to ignore armour and shield bonuses to AC. For some reason, ToEE implemented it as "always hits". If Temple+ fixed that, you can quite easily miss the Balor (which has an AC of about 35, most of which is natural AC and Dex bonus that are unaffected by Brilliant Energy).

Ever since I read it in the Payer's handbook 3rd ED I thought that it might be a tad be strong and should be reduced to +2 maybe, though that might be too weak then.

 

[Cael]

After that I want at least one divine caster thinking about trying the favored soul but it is hard to find any hard information what he can do. All I remember about that class is that it is a cleric which uses charisma instead of wisdom. What else is different from a cleric?

Basically, a Favoured Soul is to a Cleric what a Sorceror is to a Wizard, except a FS has more special abilities but requires Wis as well as Cha for spellcasting as a trade-off (and don't get the all important Turn Undead for Divine Metamagic shenannigans).

 

[Cael]

Ever since I read it in the Payer's handbook 3rd ED I thought that it might be a tad be strong and should be reduced to +2 maybe, though that might be too weak then.

You generally only ever get 7 feats from L1 to L20. +4 is fine for one of those. As a caster, there are a ton of feats that you'd want (metamagic and crafting, for example), so Imp Ini has to have a pretty good trade off to be worthwhile.

As an aside, in the PnP game, you can easily get +11 or so without Imp Ini using items and item enchantments (Eagerness and Warning enchantment on weapons would give +7 by themselves, IIRC, Nerveskitter spell gives +5, and +Dex items give up to another +3 easy, and this is just off the top of my head). Reducing Imp Ini to +2 would put it in the "don't bother" category, especially when there is another feat called Yondalla's Blessing (halflings only) which adds your Wis bonus to initiative.

 

[Sykar]

Is the "Keep on the Borderlands" a good mod? Thinking about getting it after I am done with Co8 NC. Or are the additional skills etc. useful for Co8 NC as well?

Sykar
ToEE has an interactive help menu, look it up for yourself. Imp. Initiative certainly helps everyone, be it to get AoO dudes into position, get a critical debuff up etc. Not the most critical or powerful feat, but it helps. If you want a bit of a challenge, stay with the lvl 10 cap and give NPCs max HP. Some fights involving mutiple enemy classes can be quite funny then.

Mh wanted to get to 20, maybe I should use the slower leveling option from the Temple+ Config instead until I beat Zuggy? Or use the level 10 restriction and lift it afterwards for the new content. I am not too hot for max NPC hp, might make the game a bit too "spongey".

 

[Cael]

Is the "Keep on the Borderlands" a good mod? Thinking about getting it after I am done with Co8 NC. Or are the additional skills etc. useful for Co8 NC as well?

Sykar
ToEE has an interactive help menu, look it up for yourself. Imp. Initiative certainly helps everyone, be it to get AoO dudes into position, get a critical debuff up etc. Not the most critical or powerful feat, but it helps. If you want a bit of a challenge, stay with the lvl 10 cap and give NPCs max HP. Some fights involving mutiple enemy classes can be quite funny then.

Mh wanted to get to 20, maybe I should use the slower leveling option from the Temple+ Config instead until I beat Zuggy? Or use the level 10 restriction and lift it afterwards for the new content. I am not too hot for max NPC hp, might make the game a bit too "spongey".

I don't know about Temple+, but Co8 was restricted as to what spells you could get above spell level 5 due to what existed in-game. Getting to L20 would not give you the power boost you are expecting as the spells you can get tapers off severely after spell level 5 (this even includes domain spells for clerics).

 

[Sykar]

Is the "Keep on the Borderlands" a good mod? Thinking about getting it after I am done with Co8 NC. Or are the additional skills etc. useful for Co8 NC as well?

Sykar
ToEE has an interactive help menu, look it up for yourself. Imp. Initiative certainly helps everyone, be it to get AoO dudes into position, get a critical debuff up etc. Not the most critical or powerful feat, but it helps. If you want a bit of a challenge, stay with the lvl 10 cap and give NPCs max HP. Some fights involving mutiple enemy classes can be quite funny then.

Mh wanted to get to 20, maybe I should use the slower leveling option from the Temple+ Config instead until I beat Zuggy? Or use the level 10 restriction and lift it afterwards for the new content. I am not too hot for max NPC hp, might make the game a bit too "spongey".

I don't know about Temple+, but Co8 was restricted as to what spells you could get above spell level 5 due to what existed in-game. Getting to L20 would not give you the power boost you are expecting as the spells you can get tampers off severely after spell level 5 (this even includes domain spells for clerics).

Well I am fine with level 10 for the original content anyway since it is balanced for that. I would like to try out and see how the implementations of level 6-9 look like though. It will be fun to try out the PrC's too.
I might just go with a 8 man party that should keep experience low per character as well hopefully.