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Prosper The weekly/yearly what is a RPG discussion DISCUSS!!!

ProphetSword

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If the definition of an RPG is that you assume a role in a game in a fictional setting, then I propose that this thread is a game (because people are trying to win something), we are all playing our roles, and we're all involved in a fictional setting (acting as if any opinion here makes a difference in the world).

That means this thread is an RPG, and by your classification, is stupid. I think you nailed it.
 

DalekFlay

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I'd rather go with Draq's opinion that RPG is a set of mechanics and not a genre at all than try to define the genre.
 

Servo

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That means this thread is an RPG, and by your classification, is stupid. I think you nailed it.

Unfortunately you misunderstood the premise. The thing itself is not stupid, but arguing about the definition is.

Basically: NO U.
 

HiddenX

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A genre cannot perfectly defined like a natural law. It is just a label for something that is commonly used by a group of persons that recognize similar patterns in different objects and then put these objects in one class.
Blues Music, Horror Movies, Pulp Fiction, CRPGs,... all impossible to define with absolute math-like conditions.
But you can always make checklists

a) for common reoccuring patterns that are always existent in a genre = MUST HAVE CONDITIONS (these patterns are essential for the genre)
b) for common reoccuring patterns that are often existent in a genre = SHOULD HAVE CONDITIONS (if one or more is missing = borderline case)
c) for common reoccuring patterns that are sometimes existent in a genre = NICE TO HAVE CONDITIONS (optional patterns)

with these sets of conditions you can define a genre well enough, if you reach a consensus in your group which patterns are always, often, rarely in the genre

a) b) c) define a fuzzy set of objects that can be put in one class. Overlapping with other classes is perfectly fine and can happen.

My CRPG checklist works like this and it functions really good.

Putting labels on things we recognize and other people putting the same label on it, is the basic principle of every meaningful communication.
 

Xor

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:hmmm:

Is it time for our annual "what can define the nature of an RPG" thread already?


Seriously, this topic of discussion is so overused that even me pointing out how overused it is has itself become a cliche.
 

Servo

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Putting labels on things we recognize and other people putting the same label on it, is the basic principle of every meaningful communication.

This is true except for cases when the label is misleading. In that case it is a bad label.

Is it time for our annual "what can define the nature of an RPG" thread already?

No, that thread is here. ITT we discuss why "role playing" is a stupid term to begin with.
 

Xor

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Is it time for our annual "what can define the nature of an RPG" thread already?

No, that thread is here.

Fuck it. Everyone is only interested in hijacking this thread and turning it into that anyways. Might as well merge now and get it over with.
It's your fault for making this thread when we already had a pointless discussion about the definition of RPG thread for this year.
 

Zeriel

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I'm actually starting to like this thread because once you see every post as satire, it's Monty Python-esque in quality. Thanks to Xor for his post on how even telling people to shut up about this stuff is in itself a hilarious cliche, which made me realize this.

"Today on the show, the man who thinks an RPG is a game in which you play a role."

 

HiddenX

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Putting labels on things we recognize and other people putting the same label on it, is the basic principle of every meaningful communication.

This is true except for cases when the label is misleading. In that case it is a bad label.

I agree that the label cRPG has been used for (too) many different things in the past. But what can I do about it? -> Exactly nothing.
The label is in the world and will not die, so I have to live with.

The only alternative is to create a new label and convince the rest of the world to use it, too. Good Luck!
 

Abelian

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Next question: what is a wargame?
:troll:

A game in which there is war.
I've decided the "What is a computer wargame?" discussion is pointless. In order to answer that question in any sane way, you have to first answer "What is an wargame?" But that discussion is equally pointless, because from what I've gathered there has never been a consensus among players.

OD&D did not call itself a "wargame." The box cover says "rules for fantastic medieval wargames." What I can't figure out is who called this activity "wargaming" first. It's misleading because it suggests that the player is an warrior in a war, which is not what OD&D was actually about. It was just a game, and people played to win. Ron Edwards explained that the rules were revised and scattering among publications, so a lot of people made it up as they went, playing for make believe instead of to win.

Point is there was already at least two very different things people were calling D&D. So if D&D is the archetypal wargame, and we can't even agree on what D&D is, then how can we say what an wargame is? I suggest it is nonsense. D&D was not a "wargame" to begin with, and whatever the thing is that everyone else was doing ("wargaming") was not D&D.
couldn't resist hopping aboard the absurdist train
 

Telengard

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"Wargaming" was a pasttime, a hobby. People got together and played wargames, like Jutland and Sniper!. Then along comes D&D. Old D&D used a lot of the same old strategy game rules that wargamers were used to, but applied a fantasy overlay to them. And then it did something unique with persistent characters and levels. And in order to distinguish what it was doing from the rest of the wargame hobby, the term role-playing game was coined. Which is all right and proper. That's the way the system is supposed to work. A new genre presents itself, and a new category is named to help define it for people.

But, a couple of decades later, and defining things and getting people to understand what they're potentially buying is no longer the goal of marketing. Now, the goal is to muddle things as much as possible in order to gain as many sales as possible, and then cash out. If people get mad that you misled them into buying something they didn't want, so what, you've already got their money, and maybe even also left the company.

So, along comes Biowarian epic #10 (they're all the same, who cares which one specifically), which is a game genre that really should be called a storybook action game, or a new term should be made to define its category. But that's no longer how the system works. Now, everything is an RPG. And so, so many things are now an RPG that no simple definition could ever hope to encompass it all. To actually define things properly, someone respected would have to sit down and start laying down proper categories again, doing as what should have been done the past two decades.
 

Lhynn

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"Wargaming" was a pasttime, a hobby. People got together and played wargames, like Jutland and Sniper!. Then along comes D&D. Old D&D used a lot of the same old strategy game rules that wargamers were used to, but applied a fantasy overlay to them. And then it did something unique with persistent characters and levels. And in order to distinguish what it was doing from the rest of the wargame hobby, the term role-playing game was coined. Which is all right and proper. That's the way the system is supposed to work. A new genre presents itself, and a new category is named to help define it for people.

But, a couple of decades later, and defining things and getting people to understand what they're potentially buying is no longer the goal of marketing. Now, the goal is to muddle things as much as possible in order to gain as many sales as possible, and then cash out. If people get mad that you misled them into buying something they didn't want, so what, you've already got their money, and maybe even also left the company.

So, along comes Biowarian epic #10 (they're all the same, who cares which one specifically), which is a game genre that really should be called a storybook action game, or a new term should be made to define its category. But that's no longer how the system works. Now, everything is an RPG. And so, so many things are now an RPG that no simple definition could ever hope to encompass it all. To actually define things properly, someone respected would have to sit down and start laying down proper categories again, doing as what should have been done the past two decades.
Ive been told this is a respected magazine, but the only attempt ive seen from the codex is these casual attempts at defining it, often derrailing entire threads. So maybe it could be a new big project.

Anyway, you make good points.
 

Job Creator

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We need meanings in order to do criticism, otherwise we're only left saying stuff is awesome, as you just demonstrated

Nah. We can identify a good game when we see it without trying to shoehorn it into any genre label. Same with music. Or does anyone actually listen to Minutemen and say "This technically isn't punk so I don't like it?" They are gay.
I don't know who minutemen are, but a quick checking out of some reviews shows that references to punk and funk, even if sometimes in the context of eschewing conventions, are ubiquitous, especially concerning the earlier material which couldn't be described by comparing with their earlier work

Now, you might ask what's the point of criticism in the first place and you might not derive pleasure from piling words on until the author and everyone who liked his game are crying, but then I'd have to ask you to leave
 

Servo

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We need meanings in order to do criticism, otherwise we're only left saying stuff is awesome, as you just demonstrated

Nah. We can identify a good game when we see it without trying to shoehorn it into any genre label. Same with music. Or does anyone actually listen to Minutemen and say "This technically isn't punk so I don't like it?" They are gay.
I don't know who minutemen are, but a quick checking out of some reviews shows that references to punk and funk, even if sometimes in the context of eschewing conventions, are ubiquitous, especially concerning the earlier material which couldn't be described by comparing with their earlier work

Now, you might ask what's the point of criticism in the first place and you might not derive pleasure from piling words on until the author and everyone who liked his game are crying, but then I'd have to ask you to leave

I'm not sure what your point is, but Minutemen was a bad example since they're almost universally recognized as punk. I was looking for something other than Genesis since I had just used that example, but substitute that for Minutemen and prog. rock for punk.

Anyways, I just figured out a succinct way of summarizing my whole train of thought with this thread and it's gonna blow your mind. There's role playing, and then there are games. The less of the former, the better the latter. Also vice versa, since stories tend to be better when not dragged down by gaminess.

Unfortunately most of the games I like are collectively referred to as RPGs which confuses everything :negative:
 

SCO

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I like how we storyfags managed to fit in King of the Dragon Pass on the last list, may it never leave.
 

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