The original Tomb Raider, its remake, and the loss of subtlety

[TC Jr]

As long as they let you keep the original graphics 100% (seems to be the case?) and don't alter the levels or gameplay in any way then looks good. Just works out of the box with modern hardware too.

Agreed but as long as the draw distance also remains the same, for reasons Ash stated.
Still gay IV's not included.

 

[Ash]

As long as they let you keep the original graphics 100% (seems to be the case?) and don't alter the levels or gameplay in any way then looks good. Just works out of the box with modern hardware too.

Agreed but as long as the draw distance also remains the same, for reasons Ash stated.
Still gay IV's not included.

This better be moddable if nothing else. It could be the saving grace.

 

[Biscotti]

Sad. When new people experience this, 98% of these newcomers will do so with the new shit graphics, ext. draw distance etc, and wont get the real deal. What a shame.

Said new people would have never experienced this if not for the new graphics, they would've simply thought to themselves "Eww, look at those old blocky graphics, no way am I playing this" and moved on. The average person is deathly afraid of early 3D graphics. Hell, I've seen people beg for remasters of 8 year old games because of the 'dated' graphics.

I'm not a fan of the new graphics either, but the original graphics are still there for those that want them. The point is that the remaster will offer an out of the box experience including the expansion packs for each game, which to my knowledge aren't present in either the steam or gog release and completely missing from any console release were you to go the emulation route. Yeah, the originals are perfectly playable nowadays and the expansions can be found on abandonware sites, but that would require some amount of research and tinkering, which is asking too much of the average end user.

 

[Bad Sector]

But something the Peruvian caves in TR1 would need to have very clear, unambiguous ledges for the player to climb on, which no real cave system has.

Yes they'll need to do that, hence why i wrote that it wont give you realistic graphics but it will work fine with stylized graphics (the remaster doesn't bring the new Lara from the latest reboot, which is more realistically designed, but uses a much more stylized Lara that looks closer to the older action comic hero influenced one). You also don't need to do the grid stuff for everything, anything that doesn't matter (e.g. ceiling, some corners, etc) can be more curvy/stoney/bumpy to avoid having everything look griddy. Though even the ledges can also have some visual detail, like -e.g- slightly crooked lines (not too much, it'd still need to adhere to the underlying straight collision), small chipped off bits, etc while the flat wall can have soft bumpy bits/rocks (again nothing that will interfere with the underlying flat collision).

 

[janior]

looks great

 

[JarlFrank]

increased draw distance

It's the most negatively noticeable in Saint Francis' Folly, because in the original with low draw distance you can't see all the way down to the floor, making the vertical room feel even taller than it already is.

It's why I played through TR1 on Steam in the original, unpatched DOS Box version Steam provides, without any user patches. Because those patches increase resolution and draw distance to the point it kills the original vibe.

 

[JarlFrank]

No idea how it only needs 2GB of storage though, since each of the three games on Steam lists a requirement of 2GB

TR1 and 2 are around 300 MB while TR3 is around 500 MB of actual install size.

 

[JarlFrank]

This better be moddable if nothing else. It could be the saving grace.

I'm somewhat positive about this remaster because it lets you play with original graphics (we'll see about draw distance), and because it includes all the expansion packs for a complete package.

But my positivity will sharply decline if they don't include a TRLE-equivalent editor with this.
At this point in time, TRLE has become an integral part of the classic Tomb Raider community and experience!

 

[Cyberarmy]

Just sad that it doesn't include TR4

BOOOOOO!
Welp, while 4th is my favorite, I love second game too. So kinda good news I guess.

 

[Lemming42]

Yes they'll need to do that, hence why i wrote that it wont give you realistic graphics but it will work fine with stylized graphics (the remaster doesn't bring the new Lara from the latest reboot, which is more realistically designed, but uses a much more stylized Lara that looks closer to the older action comic hero influenced one). You also don't need to do the grid stuff for everything, anything that doesn't matter (e.g. ceiling, some corners, etc) can be more curvy/stoney/bumpy to avoid having everything look griddy. Though even the ledges can also have some visual detail, like -e.g- slightly crooked lines (not too much, it'd still need to adhere to the underlying straight collision), small chipped off bits, etc while the flat wall can have soft bumpy bits/rocks (again nothing that will interfere with the underlying flat collision).

I got what you were saying (I think), I just have trouble visualising it in my head. It could definitely work if the grid areas were redesigned in a way that simultaneously didn't mess with the collision or the player's ability to immediately identify them as climbable, and also made them not look weird against the more naturally-designed background areas. Areas like the Maria Doria from TR2 or Antarctica from TR3 would be very easy to do, but the more nature-based areas like Peru or India (the latter of which already looks pretty bad in TR3) would be a big challenge.

I think I just have bad memories of the Crash Bandicoot 1 remaster, where a combination of Crash's weird hitbox and the visually redesigned platforms would sometimes mean that you'd go sliding off the edge of a platform you'd seemingly landed on.

 

[El Presidente]

Ehhhhh I don't know, looks like they're heavying their hands on AI upscaling/AI-made assets a tad too much. Someone on the steam forums posted this:

Looks very bad and visually polluted. A clusterfuck if you will, as finer gentlemen would put it. Still if they're letting you switch back and forth the graphics like Diablo 2 does and it'll come with all the expansions, then it's still worth it. The price is already pretty good in my currency too (unlike for instance MGS master collection which has an absurd price).

I love these games (and 4), and I completely disagree with the "ohhh le bad tank controls nooes it's unplayable!" crowd. That sounds more like a meme than anything else. It's hard for me to believe it takes more than 3 minutes for people to get used to these games' controls. The visual image you inevitably picture in your mind with the term "tank controls" ("see this nimble, slim, super fit explorer? Well actually she moves like a fucking TANK") is extremely harsh and unfair with these games, you have complete control of Lara and the game's block-based nature make it so everything is very precise. Walk to ledge -> hop back (pressing down) -> run forward -> press jump = you will ALWAYS 100% of the times do the maximum distance jump possible, there's not even room for a mistake unlike in many other 3D platformers.

Also TR3 is one of the most underrated games of all times and I'll happily die on this hill. Some of those level designs are just bonkers.

 

[Biscotti]

increased draw distance

It's the most negatively noticeable in Saint Francis' Folly, because in the original with low draw distance you can't see all the way down to the floor, making the vertical room feel even taller than it already is.

It's why I played through TR1 on Steam in the original, unpatched DOS Box version Steam provides, without any user patches. Because those patches increase resolution and draw distance to the point it kills the original vibe.

I wouldn't count on it, honestly. No matter what the games in this remaster will be running on, I'm almost positive it would require some custom implementation of TRLE. I don't see them going to those lengths.

 

[Jonathan "Zee Nekomimi]

Why u guys think mexico it's spilling the beans on aliens now

 

[Semiurge]

Ehhhhh I don't know, looks like they're heavying their hands on AI upscaling/AI-made assets a tad too much. Someone on the steam forums posted this:

Looks very bad and visually polluted. A clusterfuck if you will, as finer gentlemen would put it. Still if they're letting you switch back and forth the graphics like Diablo 2 does and it'll come with all the expansions, then it's still worth it. The price is already pretty good in my currency too (unlike for instance MGS master collection which has an absurd price).

I love these games (and 4), and I completely disagree with the "ohhh le bad tank controls nooes it's unplayable!" crowd. That sounds more like a meme than anything else. It's hard for me to believe it takes more than 3 minutes for people to get used to these games' controls. The visual image you inevitably picture in your mind with the term "tank controls" ("see this nimble, slim, super fit explorer? Well actually she moves like a fucking TANK") is extremely harsh and unfair with these games, you have complete control of Lara and the game's block-based nature make it so everything is very precise. Walk to ledge -> hop back (pressing down) -> run forward -> press jump = you will ALWAYS 100% of the times do the maximum distance jump possible, there's not even room for a mistake unlike in many other 3D platformers.

Also TR3 is one of the most underrated games of all times and I'll happily die on this hill. Some of those level designs are just bonkers.

It looks like the work of A.I. alright. The evil spirit was obviously confused by the astral dancers' smooth crotches, so it put buttcracks on them:

 

[JarlFrank]

I love these games (and 4), and I completely disagree with the "ohhh le bad tank controls nooes it's unplayable!" crowd. That sounds more like a meme than anything else.

Yeah playing TR on keyboard (I don't own a controller) is quite comfortable and very powerful, you have full control over Lara's movements and everything is extremely precise. It's a lot better than the Crystal Dynamics TR titles. Legend, Anniversary and Underworld often had jumping puzzles that felt like you were at the mercy of the controls. Never so in the original games, where controls weren't floaty and context-sensitive, but always accurate and precise.

It's one of the best-controlling action adventure games out there.

increased draw distance

It's the most negatively noticeable in Saint Francis' Folly, because in the original with low draw distance you can't see all the way down to the floor, making the vertical room feel even taller than it already is.

It's why I played through TR1 on Steam in the original, unpatched DOS Box version Steam provides, without any user patches. Because those patches increase resolution and draw distance to the point it kills the original vibe.

I wouldn't count on it, honestly. No matter what the games in this remaster will be running on, I'm almost positive it would require some custom implementation of TRLE. I don't see them going to those lengths.

I think you quoted the wrong post of mine! But yeah, a level editor is a pipe dream at this point. But we can hope....

 

[Ash]

Yes they'll need to do that, hence why i wrote that it wont give you realistic graphics but it will work fine with stylized graphics (the remaster doesn't bring the new Lara from the latest reboot, which is more realistically designed, but uses a much more stylized Lara that looks closer to the older action comic hero influenced one). You also don't need to do the grid stuff for everything, anything that doesn't matter (e.g. ceiling, some corners, etc) can be more curvy/stoney/bumpy to avoid having everything look griddy. Though even the ledges can also have some visual detail, like -e.g- slightly crooked lines (not too much, it'd still need to adhere to the underlying straight collision), small chipped off bits, etc while the flat wall can have soft bumpy bits/rocks (again nothing that will interfere with the underlying flat collision).

I got what you were saying (I think), I just have trouble visualising it in my head. It could definitely work if the grid areas were redesigned in a way that simultaneously didn't mess with the collision or the player's ability to immediately identify them as climbable, and also made them not look weird against the more naturally-designed background areas. Areas like the Maria Doria from TR2 or Antarctica from TR3 would be very easy to do, but the more nature-based areas like Peru or India (the latter of which already looks pretty bad in TR3) would be a big challenge.

I think I just have bad memories of the Crash Bandicoot 1 remaster, where a combination of Crash's weird hitbox and the visually redesigned platforms would sometimes mean that you'd go sliding off the edge of a platform you'd seemingly landed on.

India looked bad? In my opinion it is among the most visually appealing of all the classic TR levels. The atmosphere is lush too with the music, ambient sound effects, godrays etc.

Spoiler

 

[Semiurge]

I was never able to get into the original Tomb Raider games due to my smaller brain in the nineties. Is there anything in the games that may be censored for modern sensibilities?

Someone at Steam speculated on the South Pacific headhunters, but it's highly unlikely they will be altered in any way. The dialogue with the australian soldier at the end of Coastal Village - as it's in the original - depends on the natives being openly hostile. But then, I can see how that chat could be deemed problematic in itself. Regardless, changing these things would be a commercial suicide so it won't be done. You can count on that.

 

[JarlFrank]

They are porting the exact same levels from the original and even allow you to use the original graphics.

There will be no changes.

There's even a thread on the Steam forum elated about how "they didn't nerf Lara's tits" lmao

 

[Ash]

This is the OG stronk female game before it was cool to do that. Pretty much all the men in it are SCUM*. Of course it wont be censored.

*but so is Natla and arguably Lara too. Pretty much all the humans are either scum or killed before their characters can be judged. I guess the exception is the buddhist monks in TR2 and Lara's butler.

Maybe they'll remove the guns from the game so that Lara is now innocent and virtuous, no longer the bloodthirsty treasure hunter. But then she will no longer be badass, and that would be anti-feminist too. What do guys?

 

[Biscotti]

I love these games (and 4), and I completely disagree with the "ohhh le bad tank controls nooes it's unplayable!" crowd. That sounds more like a meme than anything else. It's hard for me to believe it takes more than 3 minutes for people to get used to these games' controls.

Funny you mention this. I noticed some people praising a certain new control scheme, because it would finally free the game of those icky tank controls.
So I decided to look into it further and yes, it does seem like some kind of alternate control scheme will be implemented.

source

No idea what adjustments a 'modern' joystick control scheme could possibly involve, especially because the grid based geometry and the controls of the game are so intertwined.

 

[Ash]

Sad. When new people experience this, 98% of these newcomers will do so with the new shit graphics, ext. draw distance etc, and wont get the real deal. What a shame.

Said new people would have never experienced this if not for the new graphics, they would've simply thought to themselves "Eww, look at those old blocky graphics, no way am I playing this" and moved on. The average person is deathly afraid of early 3D graphics. Hell, I've seen people beg for remasters of 8 year old games because of the 'dated' graphics.

I'm not a fan of the new graphics either, but the original graphics are still there for those that want them. The point is that the remaster will offer an out of the box experience including the expansion packs for each game, which to my knowledge aren't present in either the steam or gog release and completely missing from any console release were you to go the emulation route. Yeah, the originals are perfectly playable nowadays and the expansions can be found on abandonware sites, but that would require some amount of research and tinkering, which is asking too much of the average end user.

Then they are filtered and shouldn't play at all.

I am sick of these shameless remakes and remasters. Almost all my beloved classics given the modern day treatment for drooling retards.

 

[JarlFrank]

Then they are filtered and shouldn't play at all.

Yeah filtering is good actually

It's the process of a game performing its own gatekeeping. Too casual to get into it? Good, we don't want your kind anyway, go play with Playmobil instead.

 

[TheHeroOfTime]

I find the draw distance debate a bit too much autistic.

You can still have an atmospherical game without obstructing the player's vision with fog or darkness at five meters. The cancelled remake of the first Tomb raider proves this. Just look how good the atmosphere was on these levels.

 

[Ash]

That is indeed atmospheric, mysterious and scary somewhat, but there is no beating limited draw distance in that regard. But still, you miss the point. Maybe, in a remake, with manual aim combat and high detail environments, extended DD is a no-brainer. But this is not that game. This is same old Tomb Raider with AI-upscaled textures slapped on, so it only will lead to heavy decline. You lose a lot, and gain very little.

Every game or mod I make will have at least 1 level with heavy dark fog replicating the classic 90s limited draw distance, if it makes sense to (I did it for one level in Unreal and Turok 2, but not Quake and Deus Ex). There is a lot of merit to the gameplay and visual experience it created.

 

[Jaesun]

I have been waiting for something like this that takes a collection of the early TR games and just does a decent touch up job but leaves the basic original games alone. What I have seen so far I like what they are doing here, and the fact you can just go back to the original look if you want. Added to my Wishlist (but I'll wait for a sale on it).