Might and Magic The Might and Magic Discussion Thread

[Broseph]

Did a Might and Magic VIII review.

A MM8 review barely mentioning dragons instead of the usual "Boo ! Dragons are overpowered and totally ruin the game !" ? Unbelievable.

Heh, yeah, I don't understand all the whiny butthurt about dragons. They're not that overpowered and the game would've still been hopelessly broken without them.

My win certificate:

Now I can finally go back to my Isles of Terra save

 

[7hm]

People are going on about how great mm6's dungeon design is, but i just don't see it. I'm in the middle stages of the game mind you, my characters being just shy of lvl 30, but having cleared 14 dungeons i believe i can comment on the design in general. The truth is, i don't really know how these dungeons differ from others in other games - there are twists and turns, big caverns, the occasional trap and the even rarer puzzler. What's the big deal?

Ok, I'll grant that the temple of the fire lord was nifty at best, but that first temple in wiz8 puts every dungeon mm6 happened to throw at me thus far to shame. Does it get better?

I think there are some that are memorable because of being pretty solid.

Goblinwatch. Temple of Baa. Temple of the Fire Lord. Castle Alamos. VARN. I'm not totally done, but I'm into the end game and these are the ones that have stood out to me. Darkmoor too, but not because it was particularly good. It wasn't awful either, but it was probably the worst example of samey annoying monsters hordes in the game.

I don't think the design is spectacular or anything though. It's good, it's not amazing. More the scale of exploration and the little stuff you can find in corners and whatnot.

edit: The Hive respawning when you portal out and back in is a huge fuck you though.

 

[Broseph]

The Hive respawning when you portal out and back in is a huge fuck you though.

The Hive only respawns after a week, actually, so you should do all your training before you go there.

 

[7hm]

The Hive respawning when you portal out and back in is a huge fuck you though.

The Hive only respawns after a week, actually, so you should do all your training before you go there.

Oops.

In any case, turns out it didn't matter. I said screw it to training and just mowed though it. I felt pretty overpowered the entire way through.

It was definitely not as hard as the Control Center.

 

[Pope Amole II]

Thing is, thinking "M&M VI has lots of trash mobs, wah-wah-waaah, what a shit game" is not a codexian way. It's a way of decline and newfaggotry and doritos, but not of the codex, at least, not of The Codex As It Meant To Be. Sure, there's a great amount of enemies in that game, maybe an excessively great one. But ask yourself a simple question - "does the game offer me adequate tools for getting through those hordes quickly?" If your answer is "no", then, well, go play Mass Effect or whatever the shit they're buzzwording at the moment. If it's "yes", then what's the problem?

And don't tell me "but those ways are unobvious!" M&M is an exploration game series, they never fucking meant to be obvious, and trial&error is a huge factor in them. In games like this, you aren't really meant to finish the game with your first party - it's more about scouting with it for a while, then restarting, then scouting for some more, then finally making the more or less optimal squad & steamrolling (more or less) through the game. They don't show you your score at the end for no reason, y'know. And that's the classical way - nowadays, there's so many info around the web that you aren't really forced to explore anything, just RTFM and do the shit right. What's the point of exploration game if everything is obvious and predictable there? If you can't get lost or stuck there? If you can't fuck up? We don't need any of that "you win by just participating" shit here.

 

[7hm]

One question though - how are you supposed to find the third eye at the end? Did I miss something in Prince Nicolai's speech about it?

That's the one thing I needed a walkthrough for. I knew I was right at the end of the game, and didn't want to fuck around for hours looking for it; I kind of wanted to finish today. I literally would never have thought to look where it was. Ever. (Can you get it before he gives you the quest? In which case I have no clue why I wouldn't already have it, but I would say that's my own fault.)

Also, it's not a huge deal, but I prefer it when games allow you to either re-read the exact quest / message dialogue, or in some way log it. MM6 had it a few times where the quest dialogue gives you way more information than the journal entry, and no way to exactly read what was said after the fact. If you write it down wrong, good luck.

All in all though, I'm super happy I put in the time. It took way too long in game time, but I had a blast just going through and playing it like I would have back in the day. With a pen and paper beside me, and no referencing cluebooks or FAQs (until the end for the third eye). It was great fun.

Not sure I'll be hitting MM7 anytime soon though. I think I'll take a break and play some nice 2D dungeon crawling for a bit first.

 

[Pope Amole II]

One question though - how are you supposed to find the third eye at the end? Did I miss something in Prince Nicolai's speech about it?

It's in the manual.

 

[7hm]

One question though - how are you supposed to find the third eye at the end? Did I miss something in Prince Nicolai's speech about it?

It's in the manual.

fuuuuuu. oh well.

 

[Lonely Vazdru]

If it's "yes", then what's the problem?

The problem is it's not satisfying. Either you go for the real-time Galaga-like approach, which I loathe since it's "Highway to cheese", or opt for hours on end of repetitive and mostly unchallenging turn-based fights.

In games like this, you aren't really meant to finish the game with your first party

Say again ? I always did. And I'm pretty sure you're supposed to unless you made some really stupid choices like not taking any spellcaster or such nonsense.

Just checked my own certificate, I made almost a year more (4 years, 11 months, 1 day) but was levels 125/130. You must have missed a lot or haven't used all you level-ups for monetary reasons.

 

[7hm]

Just checked my own certificate, I made almost a year more (4 years, 11 months, 1 day) but was levels 125/130. You must have missed a lot or haven't used all you level-ups for monetary reasons.

I spent a year in jail, and towards the end I was avoiding fights outdoors (and in the Control Center, I just ran through it getting the blasters after clearing about half of it).

I also left four or five levels each not for monetary reasons but because when I went to portal back and level up it respawned the Hive, and I couldn't bear clearing it again so close to the end of the game.

As far as I know I completed every dungeon and quest in the game.

Also yeah, I finished the game with my first real party (I spent hours on MM6 and MM7 back in the day, but never got past the early stages and wandering around. More MM7 than 6.) Also fully turnbased, and without abusing weird glitches.

 

[Lonely Vazdru]

I spent a year in jail, and towards the end I was avoiding fights outdoors (and in the Control Center, I just ran through it getting the blasters after clearing about half of it).

I also left four or five levels each not for monetary reasons but because when I went to portal back and level up it respawned the Hive, and I couldn't bear clearing it again so close to the end of the game.

As far as I know I completed every dungeon and quest in the game.

Strange then, that doesn't seem enough to account for a 40 levels difference and I don't remember going back to the respawned late areas (I don't think they even respawned), abusing the Fire Lord trick, or any such XP provider.

Also yeah, I finished the game with my first real party. Also fully turnbased, and without abusing weird glitches.

 

[J_C]

If it's "yes", then what's the problem?

The problem is it's not satisfying. Either you go for the real-time Galaga-like approach, which I loathe since it's "Highway to cheese", or opt for hours on end of repetitive and mostly unchallenging turn-based fights.

But that's the good thing about the hybrid TB-RT combat system of M&M6. Many people hate the system but if you have a difficult fight, when it is important to choose your targat, weapon, spell precisely, you can use the TB mode. But the RT mode is there to steamroll the low level trash mobs when you are powerful enough. Thus saving time.

 

[Pope Amole II]

The problem is it's not satisfying. Either you go for the real-time Galaga-like approach, which I loathe since it's "Highway to cheese", or opt for hours on end of repetitive and mostly unchallenging turn-based fights.

No offense, bro, but you're just not thinking about it right. Look, I've said in in my LPs, I'll repeat it once more - in this game (as well as part 7 and 8) monsters don't signify whether you can or can't go through certain places. It seems like they should, but they just don't - the reason is there's too many escape and regen mechanisms. You have the town portal (and a hireling with this spell), you have healer hirelings, you have the option to rest inside of the dungeons (with little to no danger), you can just exit the dungeon, ran to the nearest temple, then run back, you have black potions, you have divine intervention and, strongest of them all, you have lloyd's beacon. That's even without mentioning that, like, half of the dungeon monsters in the game can't do anything with "hit & run" tactics (either through bow or spells) and that there are lots of buggy stuck ups or predefined tactical niches to be exploited. What I mean is, you can grind through anything in this game, it's just been designed this way.

Therefore, if grinding through is not a challenge, where is the challenge? It's in how quick do you do that, and that's what you should be thinking about. "If I can get through this shit anyways, what are the ways to do so? What are the classes to use? What are the skills to pump? What are the quests to rush? What are the hirelings to hire?" Those are the questions you should be asking yourself. That's the challenge of the game.

And finding the correct answers to them is helluva satisfying, because while you're discussing getting through the game in three or four years, featuring, once again, no offense, laughable levels, I can show you this:

That may depend on personality, but for me knowing that you can squeeze this much out of the game system (mind you, no savescumming, cheating, exploiting or stuff like that here) is pretty much satisfying. And it wasn't a long/hard playthrough - despite this being a nearly 100% melee party (I rarely even used bows, yeah, full melee straight from the get go), I ripped through my enemies as if through wet cardboard so there were no "hours of tedious turn-based combat".

 

[Lonely Vazdru]

That may depend on personality.

Definitely, I think playing as you do is lame and bragging about it even lamer. Beating some stupid AI is nothing special for anyone past 10, no matter how hard and fast you beat it. Nothing really personal here btw, it's nothing new, one of my best friends plays and replays the MM6-8 games just like you and we never could agree on this, so to each their own. WoX fits my personality better.

half of the dungeon monsters in the game can't do anything with "hit & run" tactics (either through bow or spells)

I'll be dead before I play like this for instance, it'd feel like stealing candy from a child. Yet my friend and so many M&M players feel so smug about it (even though you apparently don't since you mentioned a melee only party). I'll never get it.

As for the rest, it feels like the pleasure you take is in something like "how fast can I get this shit over with ?" which seems to me as a strange approach at enjoyment.

At least you don't complain that the game is broken after the "Look how fast I beat it, Am I clever or what ?" phase (which is new to me) but seem to imply that it's meant to be played that way, and those who don't have got it wrong. I'm not sure whether I agree or disagree, I always thought most of the monsters spamming and OP tricks only came from devs laziness, but it's an interseting point of view so I have to give it some more thinking.

Also, if we keep on discussing this or any other game or subject, you can cut the "no offense" crap when you're about to offend, feel free to do it openly.

 

[Pope Amole II]

Also, if we keep on discussing this or any other game or subject, you can cut the "no offense" crap when you're about to offend, feel free to do it openly.

While it may come as a surprise to you, I have little to no interest in offending anyone over a game. Like, what's the point, man, and where's the profit? So I've kinda meant it. Of course, it didn't prevent you from perceiving them words somewhat inadequately and acting like a dick with your:

Definitely, I think playing as you do is lame and bragging about it even lamer. Beating some stupid AI is nothing special for anyone past 10, no matter how hard and fast you beat it.

(because doing a completionist speedrun of M&M VI is nothing about beating some stupid AI, to say the least, and more about solving logistical puzzles; and, looking at the overall level of game knowledge shown in this thread by mature and experienced codexers, I have my reservations about that "past 10" phrase)

But eh, whatever. Thing is

As for the rest, it feels like the pleasure you take is in something like "how fast can I get this shit over with ?" which seems to me as a strange approach at enjoyment.

Is it a strange approach at enjoyment? Well, maybe, it's hard to give an objective judgment of own tastes. However, your reasons for completing this game feel equally strange to me - if you hate its simplistic combat and hordes of trashmobs, brought in to pad that combat, why would you suffer through it at all? I mean, it quickly becomes obvious that the whole game is designed that way, so why continue playing? Why waste all that time if it's boring? Like, my best grasp of it is the "yeah, I've persevered through it" sense at the end of the game, but that still isn't exactly reasonable.

And, to explain my view of this game in different wording: M&M VI consists of combat, exploration and management. Its combat is shit, it's exploration and management elements (I must also add that, by obvious reasons, in repeating playthroughs exploration transforms into management) are good. So why focus on bad element when you can focus on the good ones? I dunno, isn't it only logical that getting through the game by riding on its strong points will bring more fun?

Not to mention that there are plenty of little problems to solve (the fun of management, basically) when you run through the game this way. Say, if you think that even a 10 year kid can do this shit, surely you'll be able to tell everything about my party build by looking at this:

 

[7hm]

The thing I liked least about MM6 was the completely inconsistent difficulty level. The Hive was not remotely challenging. It didn't feel like a final dungeon at all (or I guess it kind of did, because so many final dungeons are disappointments).

There were some real highlights, but the power curve was all over the place. I guess that's part of the problem with a game that breaks so easily.

For example ... what's the point of having stats like above? To murder outdoor monsters in Hermit's Isle and Paradise Valley slightly faster? To each their own I guess. I'm glad I beat it, and I'm glad I put in the time to beat it honestly, but I don't see myself replaying it.

 

[baturinsky]

Definitely, I think playing as you do is lame and bragging about it even lamer. Beating some stupid AI is nothing special for anyone past 10, no matter how hard and fast you beat it. Nothing really personal here btw, it's nothing new, one of my best friends plays and replays the MM6-8 games just like you and we never could agree on this, so to each their own. WoX fits my personality better.

What? WoX is same "drink from wells, oneshot everything" deal as later MM games.

 

[Lonely Vazdru]

if you hate its simplistic combat and hordes of trashmobs, brought in to pad that combat, why would you suffer through it at all?

I don't hate the combat in MM6, but I do find that the amount of trash mobs is overdone. It was better in MM3-5, at least for me. I did have more fun than not in MM6, but it could have been better with a lesser enemies/square-inch ratio. So I completed the game because overall the pleasure was superior to the pain.

As for the speedrun aspect, it's totally beyond me. While I could "understand" the first guy(s) who did it, it's way beyond my grasp to understand the pleasure of (speed)running down a well trodden path, polished by thousands of previous players, in a 15 year old game. All these guys replaying MM6, playing these identical ideal paythroughs, all starting with the flying scroll and fountain of the gods, re-inventing the wheel everytime like it's brand new.. I just don't get it.

Since this discussion is one I already had, and leads nowhere, I usually don't partake in it anymore, but since you started it by going "Lol you're playing it wrong, you're meant to cheese", I confess I couldn't resist answering with a "Lol you're playing it like a "look mom, no hands !" kid". It seemed only fair.

 

[Lonely Vazdru]

What? WoX is same "drink from wells, oneshot everything" deal as later MM games.

I didn't play WoX that way, and didn't have the "tedious fights" problems I had with MM6.

 

[CorpseZeb]

But ask yourself a simple question - "does the game offer me adequate tools for getting through those hordes quickly?"

Well, how 'bout bows? If they are not overkill, because of this sole purpose (of cleaning wast amount of enemies), I can't think about any other reason. So, there's was a catch, and there's was a solution. Also, one can reverse your question, and ask, is there a tools in the TB systems adequate for "mass hordes" problem. That said, I don't defend the RT approach, just saying, they had chosen a hybrid RT/TB, they saw the consequences - and, imho - they had delivered an appropriate tools.

 

[Pope Amole II]

Well, how 'bout bows? If they are not overkill, because of this sole purpose (of cleaning wast amount of enemies), I can't think about any other reason.

Emphasis on word "quickly". Yeah, you can kill pretty much anything with bows in this game, but it takes lots of time - your best bows deals 5d2+8 dmg, that's 15.5 damage per hit. Yeah, master bow doubles it to 31 dmg per hit, and some good enchantment will add another 10.5 damage for each of the shots, bringing it up to 50 dmg per shot, but that's pretty much the limit (until you find artifact bows). And that's to one target. Coincidentally, 50 damage per hit is what your knight's dagger will do starting from the second week, if you do the things right (mind you, unenchanted dagger). And daggers are also much faster than bows, so in terms of pure dps they'll do, like, twice the damage.

Same goes for mages - it's really easy to get out somewhere around 65 damage from spark spells & 38 damage from fireball spells starting from the same week 2. Sure, those puppies are hungry for mana, but you rush master meditation and you're done for the early part of the game.

Of course, you need to know the game more or less well to pull of tricks, whereas the bows require little to no information, so there's that. But quick they are not.

For example ... what's the point of having stats like above? To murder outdoor monsters in Hermit's Isle and Paradise Valley slightly faster? To each their own I guess. I'm glad I beat it, and I'm glad I put in the time to beat it honestly, but I don't see myself replaying it.

Well, if somewhere about 10x times faster is "slightly" faster for you than yeah. And there's nothing unhonest here - it's not like I've used any of the endless-xps exploit or whatever, it's just the appropriate use of game's mechanics.

Though, seeing your sig, I'm kinda surpised to see you taking this "what's the point" approach. I guess the multitude of safety mechanisms in this games makes people go really lenient. In dungeon crawl, you take one step in wrong direction, you may lose your character. In M&M VI, do whatever you want, you won't fuck up. I guess that kills the desire to try things even in gamers supposedly as hardcore as codexers.

 

[7hm]

For example ... what's the point of having stats like above? To murder outdoor monsters in Hermit's Isle and Paradise Valley slightly faster? To each their own I guess. I'm glad I beat it, and I'm glad I put in the time to beat it honestly, but I don't see myself replaying it.

Well, if somewhere about 10x times faster is "slightly" faster for you than yeah. And there's nothing unhonest here - it's not like I've used any of the endless-xps exploit or whatever, it's just the appropriate use of game's mechanics.


Though, seeing your sig, I'm kinda surpised to see you taking this "what's the point" approach. I guess the multitude of safety mechanisms in this games makes people go really lenient. In dungeon crawl, you take one step in wrong direction, you may lose your character. In M&M VI, do whatever you want, you won't fuck up. I guess that kills the desire to try things even in gamers supposedly as hardcore as codexers.

I don't really get what you mean here. In DCSS, steamrolling the game is something most people will never do. When you achieve it, it demonstrates not only a mastering of the meta-game, but also of the tactical component of the game (ie most of the game). Steamrolling MM6 demonstrates a mastering of the meta-game, but is reliant on spoilers. MM6 doesn't have much of a tactical component. I just don't see the point of steamrolling games that are pretty easy in the first place.

That said, to each their own. I'm never going to tell someone how to play their single player games. And I'd probably watch an LP of someone absolutely breaking MM6 and beating it inside twenty minutes or something.

 

[Lonely Vazdru]

And I'd probably watch an LP of someone absolutely breaking MM6 and beating it inside twenty minutes or something.

If you speak French, the friend I was talking about earlier made a video of beating the game in 5 days (game time), it lasts one hour though. And it's on Dailymotion .

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xq...andat-celeste-en-5-jours_videogames?start=393

 

[7hm]

I do. I'll take a look at it.

 

[Broseph]

Playing MM3 and having a blast. I'm nearing the end now, I've entered the five pyramids and the only thing stopping me from progressing are those damned Terminators and the lack of a few keycards which I apparently missed.
Luckily, I found the Interspatial Teleportation Box so I can finally enter those dungeons that I'm somehow missing the keys to and beat this thing. Awesome game.