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The Blistering Stupidity of Fallout 3

Lord Azlan

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I am actually doing a twin F2 and F3 at the moment. To the points raised:

DR. Who in Fallout 4 - we have the Tardis in Fallout 1. When I saw it I went wtf is going on - thought it was great.
Besides Tardis and Area 51 there are also references to Monty Phyton, The Hitchhiker's Guide, Wasteland, Star Treck. Point is that in classic Fallouts those were obviously non-canon jokes and pop-cultural references, sometimes placed clearly outside the space-time of main game world (Caffe of Broken Dreams). Bethesda took one of those jokes (Area 51/Elvis was an alien) and turned it into the canon. Probably they would use other special encounters in the same way if they could.

Low INT with High Speech - I think it's same for all these games? The SPECIAL is not directly tied to Skills. Not many people roll low INT for these games as they link with the number of skills raised per level. In Fallout 1 if you had an INT of 3 and Speech of 60 - would that work?
In Fallout1&2 dialogues for IN 3 or lower are different, not only the way character speaks, but also NPC responses and reactions. Some dialogue options are unavailable, and you can't fix it by pumping speech to 100%. Some quests have IN check and are unaviable for character with low intelligence (for example joining BoS). You can use mentats to access those quests (you need to start with at least 2 IN). Low inteligence makes some difference to gameplay in New Vegas, but not as much as in Fallout1 and 2.

Didn't your skills in F2 make your damage more powerful such as for small guns or was that for melee? I remember reading something about the affect of raising skills above 100 and whether it was worth it.
Skills affects accuracy of given weapon type. In Fallout 2 you also unlock more powerfull unarmed attacks when your character, Unarmed skill, AG and ST meets required level. There is also additional Meele Damage statistic based on ST that adds bonus damage to unarmed and meele.

Thanks for your post. I am not proud. I came to the Codex to get an education and listen to people. I like that in this thread a few guys have clearly stated some differences between Fallout 3 and its predessors and I appreciate the detail in your explanations.

Looking back now I find it hard to explain why intricate details of how your character was built was not reflected better in the FO3 environment. I just don't understand it. Maybe those developers just did not appreciate the earlier Fallouts - why didn't they pick up a phone or something. New Vegas did a better job at least regards how factions related to you.

Since I am doing a dual run it got me wondering about the FPS/RPG hybrid game and how successful they can be. I think a 3D environment certainly causes problems in a strategic level such as combat and VATS. But then I got thinking of some of my favourite games such as SS2, Ultima Underwords and Morrowind. Even Deux Ex Human Revolution was a decent game. Yeah - let's talk about Arx Fatalis which I only heard about and played this year due to Codex recommendations.

So maybe the question is not about explaining all the little ways FO3 is the crap sheep of the Fallout family but about why they messed up - did they not listen to fans - did they not care? Was the lead designer a knob?
 

Lemming42

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why they messed up - did they not listen to fans - did they not care? Was the lead designer a knob?

I bet the success of Oblivion had something to do with it, spurring Bethesda to stick as close to it's formula as possible. It's easy to see the reasoning behind pretty much every decision they made regarding the actual game itself - it's very close to Oblivion so they can bring the mass of Oblivion fanboys in, it's the "let's put the player in a huge open world and let them just do anything they want" philosophy taken as far as it'll go. The game encourages the player to explore the map, and the designers have ensured that no matter what you do and whichever direction you go, something "cool" will be waiting for you. VATS exists because slow-mo camera spins around your character firing a gun or whatever is way cool if you're about 13 years old, which a lot of the fans are/were. Encouraging the player to rely on VATS also helps to mask the ultra-clunky combat that anyone who shuns VATS will experience.

I can completely understand why the game is the way it is, it's the classic moneymaking Bethesda formula done reasonably well. What I can't understand, no matter what, is the writing. There's no point going into a huge essay on why the writing is so terrible beyond comprehension because it's been done about a hundred thousand times, but there's only really two possible reasons the plot, dialogue and characters all came out as a bad as they did:
1 - The writers literally have the talent level of a below-average fanfiction writer.
2 - They knew they could shit anything out and most people would eat it up.
 
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See this one point, that must have stuck out to them when first putting forward ideas about such a game. The world in the predecessors feels big because of all the NPCs and their factions and it looks big because you can actually draw something closer to an actual sized refugee in the games isometric view. So if you want to move away from that view and put it into 3D put some thought about the scale in it, because you don't want to be marching through actual miles of deserted streets, if there ain't nothing too see. This must have raised some questions up front, or did they think with putting the open world description on the box they could get away with more wasted wasteland?

inb4 Fallout isn't isometric

Yeah, in isometric you don't need to show up every inch of the city, you can just show the part the characters need to go in and with some smart map-building, imply you're just seeing parts of it. The best city-maps in Fallout do just that.

On the other hand, with 3D FPS open-world, you have to pay the piper. So you either show a real-scale city (which makes you pay the memory and CPU piper, especially if you engine sucks like Gamebryo), find a way to prevent the player from seeing a lot of it or you show a hollow shell of itself. Go read about cut New Vegas content and it is clear that the main areas (The Strip, Freeside) were a lot bigger, more populated and single rather than divided into multiple areas. There were generally a lot more NPCs around - more travellers, more soldiers, more complex scripts. I don't know about FO3 but it is clear that FNV wans't intended to feel like you were in a ghost town everywhere you went.

FO3 feels a lot more intentionally ghost-towny. They were going for a post-apocalyptic Fallout 1 (or even more post-apocalyptic) rather than the post-post apocalyptic tone of 2 (and later, New Vegas), but it feels like they went closer to Ghost Town tone instead, with cities and villages with like five people. Whole wasteland in FO3 feels dead and empty, you spend most of your game time shifting through these ruins and deserts, whereas in Fallout game-time was mostly spent in the cities and dungeons doing quests, investigating or killing bad guys. Its why everyone agrees FO3 would make a lot more sense if it happened somewhere beteen 2077-2100 rather than 200 years after the war.

Funny how GTA games manage to do huge populated 3D Openworld cities full of people, cars and stuff, while Bethesda still tries to grapple with a crap engine that limits what they can do. Granted, this gen they can pull more memory and CPU power, but they're still more than ten years behind what GTA was doing in the early 2000.

Heck, GTA San Andreas was practically a third-person Action RPG. It even had stats that influenced your gameplay and increased with practice. You could lift iron and stuff to get stronger, shoot better by doing target practice (including people), get faster etc.

Now that I think of it, something like GTASA + more RPG mechanics + Fallout would make one hell of a 3rd person Action RPG. Thrown in strong rpg mechanics, a faction and reputation system to curb the usual instinct to go on GTA rampages, and you can have one hell of a openworld game.
 

Utgard-Loki

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it's because they insist of making every single fork, spoon and plate an item you can pick up and throw inside your house. why they still bother with this i do not understand.
 

Infinitron

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Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=27089

The Blistering Stupidity of Fallout 3, Part 2

Last time we talked about how the writers completely misinterpreted and subsequently bungled the themes and tone of the Fallout universe. Now let’s get into the brokenness of the Fallout 3 setting. Last time they just made things really hard for themselves, but this is where the plot of the game melted into radioactive nonsense.

Let’s start with my favorite question…


But what do they EAT?


fallout3_megaton.jpg



I know this question is really irritating to some people. They see it as some kind of unreasonable demand for a super-realistic simulation. But the question of “What do they eat?” isn’t some dumb pedantic complaint, like a gun enthusiast demanding to know where everyone gets gun oil or a computer technician asking why the computers haven’t all failed due to magnetic degradation[1].

The fact that human beings need food and that food takes work to accumulate is a completely universal truth that has shaped our entire history and culture. Human beings hate work, but we do it anyway because we need to eat. In a survivalist society, it shapes how we form families, where we build towns, what we do for a living, what resources we value, what animals we domesticate, how we dress, and countless other details about our outlook and day-to-day life.

If this was a story where the sides were fighting over some pre-war super-weapon, then we wouldn’t need to think too hard about where food comes from. But Fallout 3 makes the struggle for water central to the plot, and then completely fails to lay the groundwork for it.

I said previously that I wasn’t going to pick on the game for having small farms or scaling things down. But this world has no farms at all. Think about the major cities in the game: Megaton. Tenpenny Tower. Little Lamplight. Big Town. Paradise Falls. The Citadel. These places have not a single farm or means of acquiring food between them. The people do no work. This is supposedly some desperate post-war hellhole where people must fight to survive, but we never see that struggle. Most people don’t even have jobs[2].

Wait, that’s not true. The slavers work. They go out, kidnap people, and then lock them in cages because there’s nothing for the slaves to do[3]. Fallout 3 is so devoid of work that even slaves are idle.



fallout1_food.jpg

In Fallout 1, time was taken to establish where food comes from and how it gets around.


I’m not asking for something exotic. Fallout 1 had farms, tucked on the edges of the maps so you could imagine they continued on, just outside of the playable gamespace. Fallout New Vegas had farms that you could walk through, and observe people farming. This is basic environment design 101: How does this world work?

The game takes place around Washington DC, but Bethesda thought that Fallout = desert, so they made a version of Washington DC where it never, ever rains. So people have survived for 200 years without a drop of rain and without growing so much as a single carrot[4].



fallout3_store.jpg



Yes, Fallout 3 allows you to scavenge food from 200 year old grocery stores. I’ll hand-wave food spoilage and just assume it’s part of the setting. If the writers say a box of deviled eggs can sit un-refrigerated for 200 years and still be nourishing, then fine. But again, that stuff should have run out over a century ago. And nobody seems keen on going out to gather it anyway.

There are cows and rats to eat, but there’s nothing for those creatures to eat. There’s no food chain. With no rain and no food, every single living creature in the capital wasteland dropped dead 199 years ago. There should be nothing left to save.

If Bethesda just wanted to make a big dumb shooter about shooting big dumb mutants with big dumb guns, they could have done that. But instead they made up this business with water, and it’s completely unsupported by what we’re shown. I didn’t freak out when I didn’t find any farms in Rage. It’s totally fair to say you’re not supposed to ask questions about how people in Serious Sam make a living. But Fallout 3 is presenting us with a problem: “The people of the Capital Wasteland need water!” You can’t think about this problem without the whole thing flying apart. We’re constantly interacting with a premise that doesn’t exist.

Nobody needs your stupid water.


fallout3_handy.jpg



People have managed to survive for an astounding 200 years without rain and without Dad’s nonsensical water purifier. They must be getting water from somewhere. What makes the problem urgent now? How would more water (or cleaner water) help these people? If you dropped a tanker truck of fresh clean water at the gates of Megaton, how would the people be better off? It wouldn’t help their harvest, since they grow no food. It wouldn’t help their health, since nobody seems to be sick. It wouldn’t save them from dangerous or arduous work.

Yes, the game has these ridiculous karma dispenser guys outside the major cities. They claim to be dying of thirst no matter how much water you give them. That doesn’t support the notion that “the wasteland needs water”, it just draws attention to the fact that most people don’t. Why doesn’t this beggar just walk ten steps into town? Those people seem to have both food and water without making any effort[5].

Imagine a version of Skyrim where somebody keeps telling you that the world is being destroyed by dragons, but you never actually see a single dragon anywhere in your travels. Instead there’s just a lone singed peasant outside of town who tells you he needs a health potion because he was attacked by a dragon, and he always needs a health potion no matter how many you give him, and he’s the only guy in the world that seems to have a problem with dragons. That’s Fallout 3.

You can’t claim we’re not supposed to question this stuff. This is central to the premise, and everything you do is supposedly in the service of giving these people water. Don’t present a problem for me to solve and then demand I not think about it.

But the icing on the cake is that there’s a Mr. Handy robot in the game. He lives in your house. And he can make fresh, clean water for you, for no work at all. He doesn’t even need energy. He just needs time for his “condensers” to work. Which means he’s basically a dehumidifier. And the wasteland is full of these robots. If these people needed clean water, they could just gather up Mr. Handy parts and put them to work condensing them all the water they need.

Mr. Handy breaks the entire premise of the game. And they made him part of the player’s house.

Again, I’m not asking for something unreasonable. If your goal is “give the people water” then establishing that people want water is just basic, bare-bones, low-level motivation for the player. That’s the reason the story exists in the first place.

So the setting is broken. To be honest, this isn’t the end of the world[6]. You can have a good story on top of a broken setting. Dr. Who is riddled with contradictions and plot holes, but it manages to scrape by with character depth and drama. The ending of Mass Effect 3 was a disaster (and to be honest, so was a lot of the rest of it) but some people still liked it because they got to hang out with Garrus, Mordin, and Jacob[7]. As long as your characters hold together, you can still make your story work.

Next time we’ll talk about the characters…
 

A_Leftist_Pig?

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You don't need a 7000 word essay to realize that the game is garbage and Bethesda know nothing about Fallout.
Maybe Bethesda needs a 7000 word essay? One can hope that they target a section of the market and try to conquer it like companies used to do instead of aiming at everyone and thus hitting nothing.
 

Ayreos

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This thread represents the entirety of RpgCodex so strongly it gives me vertigo.
Likewise, the following picture represents this thread just as strongly:

1399751139124.jpg


And the picture does not reveal that the majority of posters has probably spent hundreds of hours in the game anyway. It would be more funny if the posts weren't such a circle jerk.

Yes, Fallout 3 is the rip-off of a beloved franchise, with only superficial similarities to it. Big fucking deal. Maybe i should write a 7000 words essay about why Fallout 3 is such a popular game and preferred to any of the beloved franchise's entries, but that would be like taking a dump in the middle of the aforementioned circle jerk.
I'd much rather be banned, tagged "dumbfuck" or be the happy recipient of some other creative dissent-removing tool at the admin's disposal.
 
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RPG Wokedex Strap Yourselves In
Ayreos
Come on do it, I'd really want to read it, because Fallout 3 apologists don't say anything other than "muh exploration". Too bad they can't explain how going through dozens of identical subway tunnels fighting the same 3 enemies is a good exploration.
 

Ayreos

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Ayreos
Come on do it, I'd really want to read it, because Fallout 3 apologists don't say anything other than "muh exploration". Too bad they can't explain how going through dozens of identical subway tunnels fighting the same 3 enemies is a good exploration.

Fallout 3 is like the admin. It only has one trick, but it makes all of its friends happy with it, no matter how many times it repeats it.
 

Ultra

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You won't convince anybody they didn't enjoy something by pointing out how shit it is, they'll just resent you. People who like F3 liked all the dumb shit in the game because they're dumb fucking cunts. They're never called out on being a dumb cunt 99% of the time because most other people are fellow dumb cunts.
Occasionally one or two will stumble on a clue, or even be told directly; that what they thought was good is actually shit and why, what they thought was smart is idiocy what they thought was wit is buffoonery and every stupid opinion in their loaf and word out of their mouth is worth less than nothing. Faced with this they will scrape dried fecal matter off their asses and fling it around and howl like the cro-magnons they are, decrying their betters.

Just go and read what the rest of the internet says about 'Fallout'. They say the first 2 games are not relevant, that they're obtuse and 'hard to get in to'. Only a scoundrel would say these things, only a liar.
People say they are huge fallout fans but you have to go to page 7 of the games dedicated sub reddit before the first games are even mentioned. In a post asking if they're "worth" playing. It has 4 replies.
The actual Fallout games don't exist any longer, they've been erased from cultural memory, trampled underfoot by the babbling masses. These clumsy androids who think and talk in memes and weird media bullshit-speak saying things that no normal flesh-and-blood human being would say like "Bethesda killed it tonight! (@ their E3 show)" and "Pete Hines has a great stage presence" and "I feel like I'll spend a lifetime playing Fallout 4".

btw it was egregiously rude for neither Pete nor Todd to at least recognise or acknowledge the game from which they stole the only original things in their 'work'.
Did you guys see E3? No humility, no grace, no class, just smug faces and fist bumps, a second round of applause outrageously demanded for a known liar before the first had stopped ringing in his ears, how crass. Both of them possessing in abundance that particular type of arrogance known only to boorish oafs completely bereft of any self awareness. Two bozo's goading on two thousand more to utterances of delight from their stinking maws at chainsaw death and a cheap piece of plastic tat phone holder.
Fuck Fallout 3 and Fuck Bethesda, this is one of the only places I can say that in peace, if you're a cunt who gets triggered by me saying that then good hahaha
 
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RPG Wokedex Strap Yourselves In
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Ayreos
Come on do it, I'd really want to read it, because Fallout 3 apologists don't say anything other than "muh exploration". Too bad they can't explain how going through dozens of identical subway tunnels fighting the same 3 enemies is a good exploration.

Fallout 3 is like the admin. It only has one trick, but it makes all of its friends happy with it, no matter how many times it repeats it.

No that's Oblivion. Quests are ok-ish, combat is meh, character system is good, but roaming the countryside is very enjoyable which makes it an enjoyable, if bland experience. Fallout 3 is on the other hand shit in every aspect. Exploration in Oblivion is fun in that regard because while entering an unknown location I can find goblins, imps, demons, elementals, wizards and all kind of shit inside. In Fallout 3 I'll find raiders if I'm entering normal ruins, and ghouls if I'm entering the subway. Sometimes raiders will be im the subway.
 

Ayreos

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No that's Oblivion. Quests are ok-ish, combat is meh, character system is good, but roaming the countryside is very enjoyable which makes it an enjoyable, if bland experience. Fallout 3 is on the other hand shit in every aspect. Exploration in Oblivion is fun in that regard because while entering an unknown location I can find goblins, imps, demons, elementals, wizards and all kind of shit inside. In Fallout 3 I'll find raiders if I'm entering normal ruins, and ghouls if I'm entering the subway. Sometimes raiders will be im the subway.

So you forgot about the "radiant quest" system, introduced in Oblivion, and the countless caves full of necromancers OR vampires. No better way to hide enjoying a mainstream game on Codex than to shit on another mainstream game in a circle jerk. Nice try.

Both of them possessing in abundance that particular type of arrogance known only to boorish oafs completely bereft of any self awareness. Two bozo's goading on two thousand more to utterances of delight from their stinking maws at chainsaw death and a cheap piece of plastic tat phone holder.
Fuck Fallout 3 and Fuck Bethesda, this is one of the only places I can say that in peace, if you're a cunt who gets triggered by me saying that then good hahaha

Another use of circle jerks. It makes projecting sooo much easier.

And Ultra, my man, you can say whatever you want on the internet. If you feel you can only speak freely on Codex, it either means you don't have sound arguments or you don't have the balls to voice them. Or both.
 

DraQ

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it looks big because you can actually draw something closer to an actual sized refugee in the games isometric view. So if you want to move away from that view and put it into 3D put some thought about the scale in it, because you don't want to be marching through actual miles of deserted streets, if there ain't nothing too see.
gfs_50109_2_3.jpg

Your argument is invalid.
 

Unkillable Cat

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Codex 2014 Make the Codex Great Again! Grab the Codex by the pussy
And Ultra, my man, you can say whatever you want on the internet. If you feel you can only speak freely on Codex, it either means you don't have sound arguments or you don't have the balls to voice them. Or both.

Post about the RPG Codex over at the Bethesda forums. You'll soon realize what Bethesda thinks of your "sound arguments" and that you decided to voice them.

Ask the people over at the Star Trek Gamers site, they know what I'm on about.

When you're done, you might want to look into the financial shenanigans related to Obsidian Entertainment and Arkane Studios to get an idea of how bad Bethesda really are.
 

DraQ

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Yeah, in isometric you don't need to show up every inch of the city, you can just show the part the characters need to go in and with some smart map-building, imply you're just seeing parts of it. The best city-maps in Fallout do just that.

On the other hand, with 3D FPS open-world, you have to pay the piper. So you either show a real-scale city (which makes you pay the memory and CPU piper, especially if you engine sucks like Gamebryo), find a way to prevent the player from seeing a lot of it
And how are those two approaches any different?
In both you provide the relevant fragment of your location, some transition zones, a bit of unreachable backdrop and ideally some unusable but implied way to reach the nonexisting parts.
How is Fallout any different from, say, Deus Ex (the first one) in this regard?
 

DraQ

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it's because they insist of making every single fork, spoon and plate an item you can pick up and throw inside your house. why they still bother with this i do not understand.
Actually their development process consists of setting up "clutter warehouses" from which they can copy repetitive patterns of objects like furniture, cuttlery, etc. or bash them together / tweak them for variety.

It adds a lot of bang for comparatively little buck, without resorting to glaringly artificial shit like small items being glued to furniture and impervious to all sorts of mayhem or sterile and empty environments. It also improves flexibility because you won't reuse furniture with glue-on cuttlery anywhere where you need furniture, but not cuttlery, so you'd need separate models.
 

darthaegis

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Post about the RPG Codex over at the Bethesda forums. You'll soon realize what Bethesda thinks of your "sound arguments" and that you decided to voice them.

Ask the people over at the Star Trek Gamers site, they know what I'm on about.

When you're done, you might want to look into the financial shenanigans related to Obsidian Entertainment and Arkane Studios to get an idea of how bad Bethesda really are.
I know about the Obsidian financial shenanigans, but how did Bethesda screw arcane? (google didnt turn up anything related)
 

Vaarna_Aarne

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Funny how GTA games manage to do huge populated 3D Openworld cities full of people, cars and stuff, while Bethesda still tries to grapple with a crap engine that limits what they can do. Granted, this gen they can pull more memory and CPU power, but they're still more than ten years behind what GTA was doing in the early 2000.
Well, a big part in that is that somewhere between GTA2 and GTA3 Rockstar discovered and reverse-engineered alien technology.

I know about the Obsidian financial shenanigans, but how did Bethesda screw arcane? (google didnt turn up anything related)
http://www.dayonepatch.com/index.ph...-them-and-tried-to-do-the-same-to-human-head/

Basically, Grade A Cocksucker tier underhanded business bullshit.
 

Infinitron

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Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
Post about the RPG Codex over at the Bethesda forums. You'll soon realize what Bethesda thinks of your "sound arguments" and that you decided to voice them.

Ask the people over at the Star Trek Gamers site, they know what I'm on about.

When you're done, you might want to look into the financial shenanigans related to Obsidian Entertainment and Arkane Studios to get an idea of how bad Bethesda really are.
I know about the Obsidian financial shenanigans, but how did Bethesda screw arcane? (google didnt turn up anything related)

During the Prey 2 drama a few years back, there was somebody (on NeoGAF, I think?) who theorized that Bethesda had strongarmed Arkane in a similar way, withholding their milestone payments unless they agreed to a buyout. There's no real proof though.
 

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