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Wadjet Eye The Blackwell Epiphany

evdk

comrade troglodyte :M
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Codex 2012 Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
I did not actually talk to
the Duchess after she possessed Rosa, but am I correct in assuming that all the little accidents that claimed the lives of the other self help group members was her doing?
 

Alex

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God damn it, that ending. Now I know how the guys I play RPG with feel when I decide to just go full retard. Darth Roxor, I am sorry!

Seriously though, while the ending isn't that bad, it is really bad that it happens in a series that is consistently good. I actually replayed all four previous games before starting the fifth so I would understand better what was going on. That made me appreciate the series even more. And like the previous games, this one actually manages to have better puzzles and and engrossing plot, making it so the series consistently got better with each sequel. And to top it off, it would have been simple to simply crank out games where you just help ghosts, instead of developing some crazy, epic scheme going on the background. In fact, that would have been awesome, just like more "monster of the week" episodes in the X-Files. So, having it end for no good reason, and worse of all, having it end that way, is really awful. :cry:

By the way:
While the ending (and, to a certain extent, the overarching plot) had lots of problems, there is really only one thing that kills it. I mean, the threat of something threatening the very souls of people is a bit silly, but it isn't like they were the first to think of it. Heck, a 15 mile bomb destroying the very souls of everyone in New York is derpy, but I could stomach it. Rosa becoming a Godlike being unable to send Joey home, but able to bring back to life is ridiculous, but again, it could be stomached.

But what really pisses me off about the ending is how they had Rosa send all lost souls in Earth on their merry way. I mean, the whole point in the series was saving the souls, and saving them was personal. You always learned something about the person you were helping, about their lives, about their deaths and about their little dramas. The ending of this game feels all wrong to me because it broke this completely. If you guys have read "The Reaper Man" Discworld book, I think the difference between this and the usual soul saving is similar to the difference between the personal and impersonal deaths.

Anyway, I won't say this spoils the series or anything, cause you can always just ignore it. But it is still a real pity. This being the series end means that there won't be any more Blackwell games, and even if there were, we would have to deal with the direction the series took. But worst of all, I don't understand why would Dave Gilbert do this? He obviously is a talented game maker, so why the hell did he slip so badly in this last game?
 
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Gondolin

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Underwhelming is the word.

I disliked the hand-waving: OMG vortex of death, it's so dangerous, never mind, nobody is going to remember anything in the age of computers and electronic surveillance. It's not like anybody is landing a plane or something while all this is going on, right?
 

MRY

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Haven't played it, but in terms of the "epic" question, I think the truth is that (1) almost all fanboys/girls delight in the characters they like doing epic things; and (2) the market rewards epicness, even in low-fi adventure games. Dave is very savvy at managing his fans and has a family to feed through his business, which means that he cares about the market.
 

Gondolin

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Yeah, pulling some random epic stuff sure served George Lucas well lately. Oh, wait...

The point is I played the game thinking "Let's see how this interesting story ends", not "Let's see how Dave is catering to fanboys in order to feed his family".
 
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Alex

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Haven't played it, but in terms of the "epic" question, I think the truth is that (1) almost all fanboys/girls delight in the characters they like doing epic things; and (2) the market rewards epicness, even in low-fi adventure games. Dave is very savvy at managing his fans and has a family to feed through his business, which means that he cares about the market.

If he cared only about the market, I doubt he would have cared about crafting a half-way decent story like he did, or spend time making the puzzles more complex and interesting throughout the series. This series has improved with each interaction, at least in my opinion. Which makes me think Mr. Gilbert genuinely cared about crafting a good game. In fact, "cashing in" with that kind of ending would be the quickest way to drain away all the good will Wadjet Eye has managed to build over the years, I think. Personally, my theory is that it was just a bad idea, and thus I still remain positive about his possible next games. But trying to say he did this because his business needed it seems like the worst possible idea I can think of. Unless there really are that many people out there who enjoy well thought, funny, slow paced ghost stories that do a complete 180. ... Well, maybe Stephen King fans.
 

evdk

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The problem is that unless I have missed some clues the epic ending was not foreshadowed in any way and just came out of the left field suddenly. The storyline over all the five games was consistently of a personal nature, dealing with the souls one at a time and every threat encountered was of a similar scale - and then this, the villain has a plan B, the fate of universe in peril, massive power ups out of nowhere. I absolutely loved the game up to that point too.
 

MRY

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@ Gondolin: You mean the Indiana Jones movie? It did make $800M . . . .

@ Alex: He definitely doesn't only care about the market! I don't think the ending is "the quickest way to drain away all the good will Wadjet Eye has managed to build over the years." The game is far and away the highest rated Blackwell game and the best selling. Plus from what I've seen, fans have been gushing about it gloriously! Outside of this thread, the one comment I've seen everywhere is "the perfect ending to the series."

But I haven't played the series since its non-commercial first installment, and I've not talked to Dave about the actual content of the game, so I'm hardly an expert here!
 

Eyeball

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Outside of this thread, the one comment I've seen everywhere is "the perfect ending to the series."
And this is laughably wrong. I have a solid respect for Wadjeteye's work, love the Blackwell series and really enjoyed the 9 hours it took me to finish Blackwell5, but the ending was absolutely the weakest part of the game after an otherwise thrilling setup. Placing
Rosangela in a looney bin in a catatonic state like her auntie and grandmother
was an excellent way to begin the final part of the game, but
OMG EVERYBODY IN NYC GOAN' DIE IF WE DON'T ESCAPE
was silly and unnecessary and out of tone with the earlier games. Neither did it make much sense what happened to Joey at the end of the game.

Lovely game, great series, poor ending.
 

evdk

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The game is far and away the highest rated Blackwell game and the best selling.
Isn't it the first one released on Steam from Day 1? That might have something to do with it.

Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed the game a lot myself, right up until the retarded ending which IMHO went against everything the series was about.
 

Eyeball

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Well, "retarded" is a bit strong. Just coulda been a lot better.
 

Alex

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@ Gondolin: You mean the Indiana Jones movie? It did make $800M . . . .

Maybe, but good luck trying to make a new Indiana Jones movie now be anywhere as relevant as the first three. Well, I guess you could, if you actually made the movie good...

@ Alex: He definitely doesn't only care about the market! I don't think the ending is "the quickest way to drain away all the good will Wadjet Eye has managed to build over the years." The game is far and away the highest rated Blackwell game and the best selling. Plus from what I've seen, fans have been gushing about it gloriously! Outside of this thread, the one comment I've seen everywhere is "the perfect ending to the series."

I dunno, people may like it. But I still think this ending to this series is a bit like ending The Metamorphosis with Gregor Samsa becoming Mothra, high-fiving Godzila and flying off into the setting Sun to fight giant monsters. I mean, the ending may be likable to some people. Heck,I would probably enjoy such ending to the Metamorphosis more than the one it got! But still doesn't make it the right ending. And I am pretty sure Mr. Kafka wouldn't have the fame he has if he ended his story like that.

But I haven't played the series since its non-commercial first installment, and I've not talked to Dave about the actual content of the game, so I'm hardly an expert here!

You really should! It is a pretty great series overall.
 

MRY

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". . . ending The Metamorphosis with Gregor Samsa becoming Mothra, high-fiving Godzila and flying off into the setting Sun to fight giant monsters"

*quickly send a letter to the publisher of Pride and Prejudice and Zombies: "Guys, I've got this awesome idea. No, no, I didn't read about it in a prestigious magazine. Totally my own!"

Like I said, I don't really have the frame of reference to judge things. I guess my view is just that Dave is an able writer who cares a lot about Blackwell, so if there's something in there that doesn't make sense from a good-writing standpoint, the best explanation is that it's fan service or market service. I've given up trying to second guess market decisions of successful businessmen. I certainly hate everything Lucas did post-Return of the Jedi, but the dude is magnificently wealthy so it's hard to say he was wrong, from a market standpoint.
 

phtmyr

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Fahrenheit Indigo Prophecy also suffered from similar reasons where main character goes Super Saijan towards the end, even though it starts like a crime thriller.

I was afraid of Rosa becoming Jesus and hoping it wouldn't happen but here we are. I can only think that Dave Gilbert wanted to wrap everything up in a way that people wouldn't demand any more sequels. I guess that's perceived as perfect ending? I'd personally prefer "...and they keep helping lost souls" sort of ending. Maybe show Rosa's niece hanging out with Joey or something. Too cheesy? I'd still prefer it to these demi-god saves the day sort of ending. I like first three games better as far as story goes even though they are weaker in some other respects. I wish we had more small-scale personal stories in video games.

Puzzles are great as always though. I actually prefer the games where you collect seemingly random objects are use them in weird fashion but Blackwell series has a straight forward logical approach to most puzzles but they are still challenging and takes a bit of thinking and careful observation. And it works really well.

But I still think this ending to this series is a bit like ending The Metamorphosis with Gregor Samsa becoming Mothra, high-fiving Godzila and flying off into the setting Sun to fight giant monsters.

Well put.
 

Gondolin

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@ Gondolin: You mean the Indiana Jones movie? It did make $800M . . . .

I meant how he took a Jar-Jar shaped dump on Star Wars. Did he make a huge pile of money? Of course. Will he go down in history as a hack who was good with special effects? Looks like it.

Plus from what I've seen, fans have been gushing about it gloriously! Outside of this thread, the one comment I've seen everywhere is "the perfect ending to the series."



It goes to show why I post on the Dex.
 
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Divinity: Original Sin
What happened to joey felt out of place and
his fate as a soul, compared to all other souls and not being able to go into the light, felt convenient. I'd prefer to have joey to move on as all other spooks in previous games.
Anyway, I reallly liked how the series evolved, and even though the end was kind of a departure from the series mythology, it's well worth the playthrough.

I really liked the animations and the backgrounds... It's a very beautiful VGA game. Though I hated the newest Rosa portrait.

I'd rather that they would bring more of those people from 4th part, that knew about the bestowers and sucked their energy. Madeline as a villain is ok, but plan B vortex was over the top. I loved how rosa was about to end up nuts like her auntie and grandma, but it was silly having her with bright eyes and omnipotent. I would be Ok with an ending in which Joey would be freed of his duties and move on as any ther spirit, and rosa living, either as a normal person, or as a bestower without a spirit guide or with another spirit guide, maybe madeline, condemned to be eternally in this line of work.
 

MRY

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I meant how he took a Jar-Jar shaped dump on Star Wars. Did he make a huge pile of money? Of course. Will he go down in history as a hack who was good with special effects? Looks like it.
Just to be clear, I hate the Star Wars prequels as much as the average person born before 1990. And I deeply want to believe that the arc of history bends toward justice. But the realist part of me thinks, no, the prequels indoctrinated another generation thoroughly into the Lucas mythos. For all they may have been a missed opportunity to get the older generation further fanatical about Star Wars, the new movies are thoroughly loved by kids. People who are not fanatical about the original Star Wars (say, people born before 1960), in my experience, tend to view the movies as all about the same quality, although that's not a scientific sample at all.

Also, for what it's worth, I don't think the problem with the prequels is that Lucas decided to go "too epic." (That's why I assumed you were talking about the Indiana Jones movie, which clearly did make a big shift toward more epic-ness, like surviving nuclear bombs, meeting aliens, etc.) Generally the knock on Episode I is that the scenario is too pedestrian: a trade dispute leading to a rather unimportant battle between a merchant cartel and some local natives. Episode II is still not particularly epic, not by comparison to the original trilogy. Sure, there are a lot of cluttery battles, but the stakes are generally lower than in the original trilogy. In some ways the mythos is more epic (Annakin is conceived in a virgin birth!), in some ways it is less epic (the Force is mitochondria!). Overall, I don't think a desire to go too epic is the problem with the prequels; there are lots of other problems that have been better spelled out than I can, but one of the problems is that the prequels try to add a degree of moral and political sophistication that the generic epic fantasy setting can't really sustain.

The original trilogy worked well as a basic fantasy story set in space (particularly the first movie): the orphan farm boy who is secretly a lost prince with magical powers is tutored by a wizard, gets a magic sword, rescues the princess, defeats the sorcerer, and slays the dragon by striking its one unarmored spot. The movie took that story, which is fundamentally tied into our culture -- at a much more specific level than the generic monomyth: we're basically talking a pastiche of King Arthur, Lord of the Rings, and Chronicles of Prydain -- and then wrapped it up in really cool space stuff.

The second trilogy doesn't really map onto any fundamental stories because it's basically all about just setting up the original trilogy. I mean, it kind of sort of has elements of Arthuriana in there (with Annakin as Mordred and Obi-Wan as Arthur), but it's all jumbly, a mix of 70s political thriller, early 2000s political commentary, and fan-service prequel.

Incidentally, I developed a healthy detachment from Lucas-hating by reading the posts on the (sadly now defunct) website Grognardia about Star Wars. Apparently for people (read: nerds like us) who actually saw Star Wars in theaters (before it was "Episode IV: A New Hope"), Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi ruined Star Wars. It's fascinating because his reasoning is pretty persuasive: that Vader wasn't meant to be Annakin but actually was supposed to just be a dude who killed Annakin; that Leia wasn't meant to be Luke's sister; that Jedi don't wear robes, Obi-Wan wore them to blend in with the native population on Tatooine; etc., etc. And then there's a set of people who love ESB and think ROJ ruined it with the ewoks, the second Death Star, the way the Force is used in the final duel, etc. All this made me realize that people develop irrational but very real attachments to works of art and feel a kind of ownership as a consequence; and just as it seems irrational to me to hate ESB, I'm sure a non-hipster 12 year old would tell me it's silly to hate the prequels.

/derailment of topic

Put otherwise, if I could achieve what George Lucas did, I would take it in a heartbeat, Jar-Jar and all, notwithstanding my views stated elsewhere that I think his ruining of the series was immoral. :)
 

Gondolin

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Yes, that's the bad design decision that hurt the game. Like having your protagonist go from a cute chick uncomfortable with her duties and powers and painstakingly dealing with ghosts on a case by case basis to full blown JESUS CHRIST THE CONVEYOR BELT OF SALVATION FOR ALL SOULS.
 

Name

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Ending is Zzz meh, but all things from previous games are mentioned or wrapped up, except... The Police Commissioner!

Spin-off: Sam Durkin vs Vampire Police Commissioner!
With Joey.
 

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