Bard's Tale The Bard's Tale Series

[Grampy_Bone]

Finished Destiny Knight. 8 Hours. Awful game.

At no point in the game did anything even mildly threaten me. It was only the last couple of dungeons where Mangar's Mallet did not one shot the entire enemy team, and only the last dungeon where my fighters started missing things. The final battle was full of HP sponges but once again I had my rogue sneak up and stab the end boss in the dick, dealing 5 damage + instakill. Lol

I think I'm going to quit now and play an actual good blobber before I get burnt out on the subgenre again. Time for Dragon Wars.

 

[KeighnMcDeath]

Still funny a BT3 mechanic used in 1-2. It is pecular to say the least. Thus, it is fortunate to play the originals though there is legacy mode.

 

[Grampy_Bone]

It wouldn't have made any difference, the end boss couldn't hurt me. It just saved me a few turns of advancing.

 

[octavius]

I assume you imported a party?
Much better to start a new party.

 

[Grampy_Bone]

If they didn't want you to import a full power party then they shouldn't have let you.

Keeping a game challenging across a large scale of levels is a tricky problem in RPGs, but many have made better attempts at solving it than this series. Every fight is either effortless or impossible. Way too binary. Even if I started back at level 1 I'd just go level grind until I had uber spells and untouchable AC again. What difference does it make?

 

[octavius]

Well, for some games you just have to impose some house rules to make them challenging.
For BT2 it means starting with a new party (for BT3 I would recommend the opposite), and once you have cleared the starter dungeon run from every random fight, since otherwise you get too OP.
BT1 and 2 definitely have som balancing problems.
I actually restarted BT2 when I realized the imported party was way OP.

 

[KeighnMcDeath]

Devs screwed up. I'm a chronic encounter grinder so it is against my nature to flee. I gotta kill em all.

 

[octavius]

I used to be a bit nazi about Fleeing.

 

[Grampy_Bone]

In modern games no-flee is usually fine but in older games I've found fighting every battle is a waste of time. According to the in-game stats I fled from nearly 50% of the fights, so just imagine how much more over leveled I'd be.

I don't think there is a way to make this game "hard" in a combat sense, it's all mathematics. Either your numbers win or they don't.

There's no such thing as a fair fight. The town of Falujah took six days to clear. In the first day the marines were walking up to each house, knocking on the door, saying Hi We're the Americans, we are here to kill you. They lost quite a number of men. By the last day they cleared every house by launching a TOW missile through the window, then walking in and finishing anyone left. "That's no fun, so overpowered! Gotta give the bad guys a chance to ambush you!" Nonsense.

 

[Daemongar]

Finished Destiny Knight. 8 Hours. Awful game.

Playing an honest game of BT2, they countered the overpowered nature of the party with the timed "Death Snares" or whatever. Those can add challenge since they force you to solve the puzzle or die, in a fixed amount of time.

 

[Grampy_Bone]

Sure, but the death snares were all dumb. None of them relate to the RPG systems in any way, or otherwise challenge a built up party. They're a meta-challenge tossed into an otherwise broken game. The manual even has the solution for the hardest one, so whatever.

It's like if after the superbowl, both teams have to sit down and solve a crossword puzzle. Whichever team gets more clues correct wins, regardless of the football score. Nevermind skill, athletics, or coaching. So gay.

If the only way you can think to challenge the player in your RPG is to just flat insta-kill them for not getting enough trial-and-error questions right, that's bad design.

 

[Daemongar]

Sure, but the death snares were all dumb. None of them relate to the RPG systems in any way, or otherwise challenge a built up party. They're a meta-challenge tossed into an otherwise broken game. The manual even has the solution for the hardest one, so whatever.

It's like if after the superbowl, both teams have to sit down and solve a crossword puzzle. Whichever team gets more clues correct wins, regardless of the football score. Nevermind skill, athletics, or coaching. So gay.

If the only way you can think to challenge the player in your RPG is to just flat insta-kill them for not getting enough trial-and-error questions right, that's bad design.

How many times have you played BT2?

 

[baba is you]

In modern games no-flee is usually fine but in older games I've found fighting every battle is a waste of time. According to the in-game stats I fled from nearly 50% of the fights, so just imagine how much more over leveled I'd be.

I don't think there is a way to make this game "hard" in a combat sense, it's all mathematics. Either your numbers win or they don't.

Bard's Tale 2 certainly has its share of combat balance issues. CRPGAddict, a personal favorite of mine, is on record as having stopped playing Bard's Tale 2 because of it.
However, I don't think the dungeon design or puzzle design in Bard's Tale 2 is bad, and I personally liked Bard's Tale because I thought the dungeon design and puzzle design were more clever than Wizardry 1-3.

 

[octavius]

So I started encountering some Blue Dragons. When I first played BT1 on my Amiga back in the days, these guys really made a barbecue of my party, even though my party then must have been higher level. Now they still manage to do some damage, but nothing serious. Maybe having a Paladin in the front slot makes all the difference, due to their superior saving throws? I don't remember if I even had a Paladin in my Amiga party, though.

This sucker still hurts (especially in the wallet):

 

[octavius]

Hmm...seems like all the Horns of Fire has only one charge in Apple BT1...

I remember the Witch King vividly from the Amiga version:

The Apple version did not have the same fun loving twinkle in the eye look.

 

[Mauman]

So I started encountering some Blue Dragons. When I first played BT1 on my Amiga back in the days, these guys really made a barbecue of my party, even though my party then must have been higher level. Now they still manage to do some damage, but nothing serious. Maybe having a Paladin in the front slot makes all the difference, due to their superior saving throws? I don't remember if I even had a Paladin in my Amiga party, though.

Indeed, in the old versions (and I THINK the new version, don't quote me on that one though), having a paladin in the front provided the Paladin's save bonus to all "group" spells.

 

[Grampy_Bone]

Hmm...seems like all the Horns of Fire has only one charge in Apple BT1...

p. sure it's a random chance to vanish after every use. Bad luck chuck.

save bonus to all "group" spells.

Something that bugs me about games like this; if my team has a front and a back that can't attack, then they should be in different "groups" for targeting purposes. More modern wiz-likes separate front and back lines for spells better.

 

[Mauman]

Hmm...seems like all the Horns of Fire has only one charge in Apple BT1...

p. sure it's a random chance to vanish after every use. Bad luck chuck.

save bonus to all "group" spells.

Something that bugs me about games like this; if my team has a front and a back that can't attack, then they should be in different "groups" for targeting purposes. More modern wiz-likes separate front and back lines for spells better.

Well, think of it this way. Sure, your big armored manly men might be able to shield your little boys in dresses in the back from stabby stabbys, but a dragon's breath doesn't give a shit about things like "cover" and "distance"*.

*distance as in, if the wizards in back are in range to throw spells at the dragon, pretty sure that the breath could reach them too.

Besides, mages in this game have higher base saves than non-paladin fighters anyways.

 

[octavius]

I like how a Golem can Disbelieve a Wind Dragon, after being consumed in dragon fire. It's like some kind of Schrödinger's Dragon.

 

[Grampy_Bone]

Its still dumb when the enemy can have four different "groups" all in melee range yet be considered separate targets. How do 396 berserkers stack up to fight 7 people within 10'? Like with DVDA; where would everyone stand?

By comparison, you have MM2's rather innovative engagement system, where more or less characters could be involved in melee due to terrain or surprise status. In some battles your mage is safely behind the line, in others everyone is in the thick of it.

 

[octavius]

Its still dumb when the enemy can have four different "groups" all in melee range yet be considered separate targets. How do 396 berserkers stack up to fight 7 people within 10'? Like with DVDA; where would everyone stand?

'sup, CRPG Addict?

By comparison, you have MM2's rather innovative engagement system, where more or less characters could be involved in melee due to terrain or surprise status. In some battles your mage is safely behind the line, in others everyone is in the thick of it.

I can agree with that. MM2 is the most tactical one of the classic, pure blobbers.

 

[KeighnMcDeath]

Fantasy man. Its the tardis room

 

[octavius]

I don't know if it's due to version difference or because my party is lower level, but the Wind Dragon is not as OP when enemies can see through the illusion, which I think never happened when I played the DOS version some 10-12 years ago. So the Demon is a good substitute.

But overall the combat is still not very challenging in the mid game when running away from all random battles, but only fight the fixed (with random enemy (de)composition) battles once and meticulously mapping each level. My guys have so low AC, even without shield spells or bard songs, that only Dragon breath is any threat.

The mapping is more challenging, now that I'm in Harkyn's Castle. It's almost like a jigsaw puzzle working out where all the traps and special squares are, using the Second Sight spell. But of course, the real fun starts when the party's working environment is anti-magic and Darkness zones full of spinners.

 

[baba is you]

Harkin's Castle offers a good mapping challenge, but personally, I think the Manga Tower offers the best mapping challenge.
Michael Cranford was an avid Wizardry gamer, so there's a bit of homage in the boss fight.

 

[KeighnMcDeath]

You gonna post your paper maps?