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Community The Age of Incline: RPG Codex's 2012-2016 GOTY Results

Zeriel

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Joined
Jun 17, 2012
Messages
13,508
This point can easily be explained. If you fail an encounter you need to do some thinking, readjust your strategy, change your equipment, try different thing etc.
you playing it like it is some fucking combat strategy game
but if you don't know how to manage character sheet/your skill points(how to use your char strentghs and weaknesses) and predict skill checks, then that means you can't into real RPGs

Real RPGs were never about predicting skill checks. I fail to remember even one quality RPG other than AoD where "predicting skill checks" was a must, or even very useuful.

The classical approach was usually to make failure transmute into success. That's basically the key difference between AoD and Fallout. Fallout has tons of things that reward metagaming, but if you fail every skill check you can still beat the game. i.e, the ol' "FUCKING CASUALS" debate. VD made a Fallout game for grognards, not really anything wrong with that per se. We just learned that the "casuals" crowd includes lots of people who like to pretend they are hardcore.
 

makiavelli747

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Messages
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Real RPGs were never about predicting skill checks.
you didn't answered my question
I fail to remember even one quality RPG other than AoD where "predicting skill checks" was a must, or even very useuful.
every fucking game which has skill checks has this problem
from fallout to aod
the only difference is that most other games are retardedly easy
 

aleam iacis

Liturgist
Joined
Nov 4, 2012
Messages
115
Codex USB, 2014 BattleTech
I didn't really like DOOM to be honest. I didn't think the enemy encounters were that well designed, but it worked for the game because they put too much ammo in (didn't need to worry about running out or having ammo management) and I HATED the glory kill system. I found it especially annoying that it wasn't your orientation to the enemy that decided your glory kill but your fucking camera angle. Made those damn optional missions so gay. Maybe I'm just butthurt that I sucked at getting the right glory kills for the bonuses, but I didn't find the game that fun. Bulletstorm was more fun, IMHO.

But if we are talking about FPS/RPG hybrids, what about EYE Divine Cybermancy? That game was fun! And there are skills, augmentations, statistics, weapons, limb damage, and incomprehensible plot... I'm surprised it's not a codex favorite.
 
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RPG Wokedex Strap Yourselves In
you didn't answered my question

What question?

every fucking game which has skill checks has this problem
from fallout to aod
the only difference is that most other games are retardedly easy

No they don't have this problem, because in most of them skill-checks are complimentary to the combat-centered gameplay, which makes them manageable. You may miss on some optional reward or fail some quest but it's hardly a reason to reload just to get some better results. In AoD gameplay for non-combat centric characters skill-checks are the core gameplay which makes hoarding and save-scumming a bit of an issue.

Also before we continue could you please explain what does it have to do with my original point? Lurker King was wondering why people dislike re-leading failed skill checks but don't mind releading after dying in combat and I've explained why. What does me being able to "predict skill checks" have to do with anything? Just FYI I didn't have that much of a problem with AoD after I understood that diplomat=persuasion+streetwise and loremaster is diplomat+lore+crafting. I just didn't find it to be interesting. Can we now go back to the original point?
 
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RPG Wokedex Strap Yourselves In
Because in normal games it's easily solved by making skills useful outside of designated skill-checks
and how is that?

Ah this must be the question you were referring to in the last post. I didn't notice that.
For example in NW you need medicine not only for skill checks in quest but also for crafting drugs, which in turn means that players who are hoarding skill points are gimping themselves by limiting their options. Utilizing this approach in AoD is a bit of a problem because as I've said before character who are not combat-oriented hardly use skills outside of skill-checks. For example there is no reason for a diplomat-loremaster to craft anything since he'll die in almost all combat encounters anyway.
 

Sigourn

uooh afficionado
Joined
Feb 6, 2016
Messages
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The results are interesting, but so far I really haven't found many games I hadn't heard of before, except the following which caught my eye:

- Xenonauts
- Stardew Valley (seriously, what is up with this game, why do so many people like it? I'm giving it a go just for the hype)
- Thea: The Awakening
- Salt and Sanctuary
- Conquest of Elysium 4
- Void Pyramid
- Dex
- Dustbowl
- Bludgeons & Krakens

I don't mean to question the Codex's overall ratings, but I worry when I see a beat'em up like Chronicles of Mystara getting an average of "meh" as opposed to a punishing "1/5 what the fuck is this game doing on this poll". Also, there's a lot of bias towards JRPGs, I'm assuming from most of the same members. Would have been nice to have the voting divided between more traditional RPGs, Action RPGs, and JRPGs.

I guess I really expected the Codex to rate these games regarding some "RPG" parameter, but it seems like plenty of these are rated solely for the "fun" factor, particularly games like the Neptunia series (or maybe it was the boobs parameter). But cool results nonetheless.
 

makiavelli747

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No they don't have this problem, because in most of them skill-checks are complimentary to the combat-centered gameplay, which makes them manageable. You may miss on some optional reward or fail some quest but it's hardly a reason to reload just to get some better results.
Ok, i can agree to this. But that means that those games are just combat games with few optional non-combat content and not a real rpgs...
 

Goral

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Poland
Can we go back to discussing Twitcher and how those pesky poles hijacked our poll? I was way more fun.

:lol:

Or better how "Age of Teleportation" fanbois downvoted Underrail and upvoted Witcher. Pathetic:lol:
lol
It's hilarious considering you've rated Witcher 3 higher than me :D. And I've rated UR 3 and Witcher 3 4, don't see any downvoting. I said on several occasions that UR is a 7/10 game for me and there was no 3.5 rating. To be fair, if I would rate it solely based on my last impression I would rate it 2 at most but I've just ignored DC and looked at the big picture.
You can see here that UR fanboys were downvoting AoD, not the other way around: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1dtp96JYdv0Jw0vCvhnDY9YQAkLk9PBIJbLIj5DxyQVk/edit?usp=sharing

For example my stalker toro rated AoD 2 and UR 5.
 
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RPG Wokedex Strap Yourselves In
No they don't have this problem, because in most of them skill-checks are complimentary to the combat-centered gameplay, which makes them manageable. You may miss on some optional reward or fail some quest but it's hardly a reason to reload just to get some better results.
Ok, i can agree to this. But that means that those games are just combat games with few optional non-combat content and not a real rpgs...

They are as real as it gets.

For example in NW you need medicine not only for skill checks in quest but also for crafting drugs
you mean this is not a designed skill check?

I might've phrased myself wrong. In games like AoD or original Fallout a character with X medicine skill only benefits when a quest calls for that skill to be used. Up until that point the skill is useless, so it's good to hoard skill points in case other skill check will come-up earlier. In games like New Vegas that skill is useful all the time since it allows you to craft better Stimpaks and these are always useful. Hoarding skills is not as beneficial since you suffer for not having these Stimpaks.
 

Rivmusique

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Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire
For example my stalker toro rated AoD 2 and UR 5.
Seems pretty clear from this thread that he doesn't think much of it. Surprised it wasn't a 1, tbh. And that's all that voting was, "wut I think of gam".

It's just a list on the internet, one of many. 90% of top RPG lists will be 2 elder scrolls games and some Mass Effects, it doesn't matter.
 

makiavelli747

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not only for skill checks in quest but also for crafting drugs
So lets say we have a situation when you can get an item by persuading NPC to sell it to you(persuasion 6) or by stealing (steal 6) or by crafting this item your self(crafting 6).
How is that crafting skill check is not a designed skill check?
In games like New Vegas that skill is useful all the time since it allows you to craft better Stimpaks and these are always useful. Hoarding skills is not as beneficial since you suffer for not having these Stimpaks.
Well then you are talking about usefulness of skills, which is whole another dimension
 
Self-Ejected

Irenaeus

Self-Ejected
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PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015 Divinity: Original Sin Torment: Tides of Numenera
First, it should be expected that only certain kinds of builds have access to certain points. You shouldn’t be able to invade the palace with any build just because you want to explore. If you are used to do this in other games, that’s your problem.

This is a made up rule.

Second, these complaints don’t affected the main game in any way since you are able to finish your main quests without problems – unless, of course, you spread your skill points too thin like a newbie.

The game cannot be finished with a jack-of-all-trades character and it's not properly advertising the fact that you have to play it with a class system mentality.

This means that once you started with some skills then you have to put points on those skills until the end of the game (probably - I didn't finish it). Trying to experiment or deviate from your "class-corridor" will result in failure.

Third, most of these complaints are arbitrary because the gated locations are accessible to different builds. Instead, what really happens is this. The player spent all his general skill points on combat skills or one skill. He can’t explore some site. Frustration hits, time to go to the internet to bitch about the game. You will find people on the Codex complaining that is impossible to reach the center of the abyss, when the reality is that you have lots of different ways to get there. I listed them here. You can check. And the same thing holds for the other sites. You prove to players with all the information that what they are saying cannot be the case, but they ignore the information, because they don't want skill checks, they want traditional design. Players talk out of their hats because they are not used to this kind of thing. It’s a childish behavior because the game allows you to explore, make mistakes and try different things. You can explain and list one thousand ways to infiltrate the place and they will keep moaning. Is pure arrogance.

Your argument reeks with dishonesty: the multitude of the choices you are describing are actually close to ONE because they are based on your character stats which are the same for most part of the game.

The only one that can be blamed of arrogance is the developer.

Fourth, the game allows you to make plenty of mistakes and move forward. If you don’t notice this is because you are too afraid or traumatized by failures. Let me give you one of the many examples in Teron. If you try to critical strike Esbenus, but fail, they will throw you on the ground and hit you. You will lose permanently 2 or 3 HPs, but you also receive a bonus in your dodge skill. I don’t know about you, but at this point in the game a free bonus in dodge is a huge advantage. In fact, is always an advantage, and that’s why I always choose to fail in this in order to receive this benefit. I can guarantee you that most players that fail in this skill check moaned about bad gameplay without even bother to read the description of the game event. There are plenty of similar interesting “fuck ups” that allow the player to move forward.

Good quest design. I like how it sounds but I wonder if it's a common occurrence in the game.

Fifth, I don’t know if make any sense to say that informed decisions would prevent you all kinds of death and dangers, but I do know that AoD telegraphs a lot of the dangers to players. Players are blind to this because they are used to common cRPG tropes and prejudices. The game practically telegraphs you the risks you take by helping an unknown damsel in distress in an obscure street or an excuse deal with a strange fellow (*coug* Miltiades *cough). It’s obvious that they are trouble. What most players do? They go ahead clicking to explore and die in all kinds of indignant ways, and then start complaining about gameplay. Now, ask yourself. The game is designed to punish you for making stupid decisions based on generic cRPG tropes. Players fall in these traps. This is not bad design because it’s working exactly as intended. If I try to explain to some dude that can’t beat Miltiades toughs that he is not supposed to if he is not strong enough and that he have the option to turn around and run, he will feel insulted. I wonder where he got this mistaken idea that he is supposed to know in advance all the dangers without thinking, beat all the fights with a crappy build and never run away because that is what cowards do. Probably from generic borderline popamole traditional design.

AoD teleports but it doesn't telegraph shit. Stop lying.

The game is designed to punish you and that's about it. There is no informed decision making involved.

So players hate the subversion of poorly thinking tropes because they are prejudiced. They will dismiss all the amazing things the game offers, from the believable characters to the hundreds of interesting scenarios, because they feel personally insulted and overwhelmed. You may complain but others feel rejoice in the fact that someone is finally abandoning the hundredth copy of generic FedEx quest design and making more believable quests. You feel frustrated by gated content while others will feel challenged and will feel rewarded from beating that dam skill check. Do you this is not challenge? Yes, it is, because it takes a kind of person with perseverance and obstinacy to achieve the right build. Do you think this is not rewarding? Not, it is, because you know that most people won’t access that particular content. The other day I find a new death screen that was hilarious. That's awesome because after hundreds of hours there are hidden details I didn't know. That's good stuff. The game is so rich in details and you guys dismissing the game based “I don’t want to reload” dogmatic thinking.

Nope. There are only two ways to beat the skill-checks: (1) trial-and-error approach and (2) meta-gaming.

Even a complete moron can do it with enough time or resolve but I guess it's pointless to explain to you why this shit is not appealing to a lot of people.

An example of shitposting by a proven Underrail fanboy vote fraudster.
 

toro

Arcane
Vatnik
Joined
Apr 14, 2009
Messages
14,125
First, it should be expected that only certain kinds of builds have access to certain points. You shouldn’t be able to invade the palace with any build just because you want to explore. If you are used to do this in other games, that’s your problem.

This is a made up rule.

Second, these complaints don’t affected the main game in any way since you are able to finish your main quests without problems – unless, of course, you spread your skill points too thin like a newbie.

The game cannot be finished with a jack-of-all-trades character and it's not properly advertising the fact that you have to play it with a class system mentality.

This means that once you started with some skills then you have to put points on those skills until the end of the game (probably - I didn't finish it). Trying to experiment or deviate from your "class-corridor" will result in failure.

Third, most of these complaints are arbitrary because the gated locations are accessible to different builds. Instead, what really happens is this. The player spent all his general skill points on combat skills or one skill. He can’t explore some site. Frustration hits, time to go to the internet to bitch about the game. You will find people on the Codex complaining that is impossible to reach the center of the abyss, when the reality is that you have lots of different ways to get there. I listed them here. You can check. And the same thing holds for the other sites. You prove to players with all the information that what they are saying cannot be the case, but they ignore the information, because they don't want skill checks, they want traditional design. Players talk out of their hats because they are not used to this kind of thing. It’s a childish behavior because the game allows you to explore, make mistakes and try different things. You can explain and list one thousand ways to infiltrate the place and they will keep moaning. Is pure arrogance.

Your argument reeks with dishonesty: the multitude of the choices you are describing are actually close to ONE because they are based on your character stats which are the same for most part of the game.

The only one that can be blamed of arrogance is the developer.

Fourth, the game allows you to make plenty of mistakes and move forward. If you don’t notice this is because you are too afraid or traumatized by failures. Let me give you one of the many examples in Teron. If you try to critical strike Esbenus, but fail, they will throw you on the ground and hit you. You will lose permanently 2 or 3 HPs, but you also receive a bonus in your dodge skill. I don’t know about you, but at this point in the game a free bonus in dodge is a huge advantage. In fact, is always an advantage, and that’s why I always choose to fail in this in order to receive this benefit. I can guarantee you that most players that fail in this skill check moaned about bad gameplay without even bother to read the description of the game event. There are plenty of similar interesting “fuck ups” that allow the player to move forward.

Good quest design. I like how it sounds but I wonder if it's a common occurrence in the game.

Fifth, I don’t know if make any sense to say that informed decisions would prevent you all kinds of death and dangers, but I do know that AoD telegraphs a lot of the dangers to players. Players are blind to this because they are used to common cRPG tropes and prejudices. The game practically telegraphs you the risks you take by helping an unknown damsel in distress in an obscure street or an excuse deal with a strange fellow (*coug* Miltiades *cough). It’s obvious that they are trouble. What most players do? They go ahead clicking to explore and die in all kinds of indignant ways, and then start complaining about gameplay. Now, ask yourself. The game is designed to punish you for making stupid decisions based on generic cRPG tropes. Players fall in these traps. This is not bad design because it’s working exactly as intended. If I try to explain to some dude that can’t beat Miltiades toughs that he is not supposed to if he is not strong enough and that he have the option to turn around and run, he will feel insulted. I wonder where he got this mistaken idea that he is supposed to know in advance all the dangers without thinking, beat all the fights with a crappy build and never run away because that is what cowards do. Probably from generic borderline popamole traditional design.

AoD teleports but it doesn't telegraph shit. Stop lying.

The game is designed to punish you and that's about it. There is no informed decision making involved.

So players hate the subversion of poorly thinking tropes because they are prejudiced. They will dismiss all the amazing things the game offers, from the believable characters to the hundreds of interesting scenarios, because they feel personally insulted and overwhelmed. You may complain but others feel rejoice in the fact that someone is finally abandoning the hundredth copy of generic FedEx quest design and making more believable quests. You feel frustrated by gated content while others will feel challenged and will feel rewarded from beating that dam skill check. Do you this is not challenge? Yes, it is, because it takes a kind of person with perseverance and obstinacy to achieve the right build. Do you think this is not rewarding? Not, it is, because you know that most people won’t access that particular content. The other day I find a new death screen that was hilarious. That's awesome because after hundreds of hours there are hidden details I didn't know. That's good stuff. The game is so rich in details and you guys dismissing the game based “I don’t want to reload” dogmatic thinking.

Nope. There are only two ways to beat the skill-checks: (1) trial-and-error approach and (2) meta-gaming.

Even a complete moron can do it with enough time or resolve but I guess it's pointless to explain to you why this shit is not appealing to a lot of people.

An example of shitposting by a proven Underrail fanboy vote fraudster.

Dude you are too retarded to go outside GD! Please don't embarrass your Favela.
 
Joined
Mar 28, 2014
Messages
4,201
RPG Wokedex Strap Yourselves In
not only for skill checks in quest but also for crafting drugs
So lets say we have a situation when you can get an item by persuading NPC to sell it to you(persuasion 6) or by stealing (steal 6) or by crafting this item your self(crafting 6).
How is that crafting skill check is not a designed skill check?
In games like New Vegas that skill is useful all the time since it allows you to craft better Stimpaks and these are always useful. Hoarding skills is not as beneficial since you suffer for not having these Stimpaks.
Well then you are talking about usefulness of skills, which is whole another dimension

Basically if a skills are useful at all times players won't hoard skill points, if they are useful only at specific instances then hoarding will be the dominant strategy.
 

V_K

Arcane
Joined
Nov 3, 2013
Messages
7,714
Location
at a Nowhere near you
What you are ignoring is that player is designed around replayability, which diminishes considerably the save-scumming aspect.
I wrote that much in the post you're quoting. However, the player need to want to replay the game first and foremost, which makes the first playthrough extremely important. Which brings us to the next point:

I’m by no means an experienced player like other grognards here. My first playtrough was with an assassin. Once I understood the combat system, I finished all the quests.
So you went with a combat-oriented character for your first playthrough, liked the combat (I assume) and the ability to avoid it occasionally, and therefore liked the game. No surprises here.
I had a different experience. I'm a sucker for non-combat approaches, so I was overhyped for the fully non-combat playthrough. And ended up utterly underwhelmed and with no desire to come back to the game. Sue me.

Now, what is the alternative?
Quest for Glory.
You have skillchecks, but they are wrapped in puzzles, not presented to you on a silver platter.
You have gated content, but it's hard-gated by your initial class and skill choice and doesn't represent 80% of the game.
You have death scenarios, but you are always given enough clues in advance to avoid them if you don't act dumb.
You have vastly different playstyles for the three (four) main classes, but you can also hybridize a bit with auxiliary skills.
Now, QfG isn't without flaws, but it's the one series that does non-combat gameplay best.
 

makiavelli747

Dumbfuck!
Dumbfuck Village Idiot Shitposter
Joined
Dec 12, 2015
Messages
402
Basically if a skills are useful at all times players won't hoard skill points, if they are useful only at specific instances then hoarding will be the dominant strategy.
but how can you make certain skills like persuasion, or intimidation, useful all the time?
W2 tried to do something like that, and it wasn't pretty
 

toro

Arcane
Vatnik
Joined
Apr 14, 2009
Messages
14,125
Now I know that you can take the man out of a Favela but you cannot take Favela out him.

32859726165_41f1d2acbd_o.png


Thank you.
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
Joined
Jan 7, 2003
Messages
28,035
Here's a shower thought: if in AoD you have to pick skills that complement your class or else you will have very few options, and if you do, usually 1 option (which you will then use because it is playing your role) - why even have skills? Just pick a class at the start and have a mostly linear experience. I haven't played the game but it sounds like it mostly is this already, judging from the last four, five pages of this thread.
Because it's not the case at all?
 

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