Reminds me also of The Last Federation, which unfortunately was a bit unsatisfying in the end. Will there be multiplayer or competing similar AI entities?
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Vapourware That Which Sleeps - Vaporware Strategy RP
- Thread starter Kem0sabe
- Start date
Reminds me also of The Last Federation, which unfortunately was a bit unsatisfying in the end. Will there be multiplayer or competing similar AI entities?
No multiplayer, and no equivalent similar AI entity that corresponds to the player. Multiplayer was never on the table due to the complexity and huge increase in scope, but competing AIs was a consideration early on that got dropped, again due to questions of scope, primarily with how it conflicts with our idea of "victory." Many of our victory conditions pivot around the "collapse of the world" with 'area control' being a lesser consideration.
The closest you have to direct competition is the "Alliance AI", which is the overarching AI that will make use of all its resources to defeat you - this only occurs once a nation has become the Champion of the Alliance or the Chosen One accepts his destiny. Nations, Heroes, and Champions will join the Alliance as they become convinced of your existential threat to life, expanding the resources the Alliance AI has to play with.
Before that, heroes will compete against your agents - there is a more symmetrical relationship with the AI at that point, but nations will primarily be looking after their own interests and competing with other nations for gold and glory.
Never got a chance to play Last Federation, I should give it a spin because it has the same kind of "a world you manipulate" feel to it - but yeah I also heard it was disappointing. What was it's failings?
KingDinosaurGames The tactical battles were implemented very poorly (I was thrilled when the ability to auto-resolve them was patched in and never played another battle), and a lack of strategic level content makes it so that grinding tactical battles is the easiest way to gain the resources you need to influence the AI factions. Strong points were the detail in the AI civs but unfortunately most of the detail and simulation in the game has a pretty limited impact on your play. Enjoyable for a couple of plays but not much interest once you understand the systems at play.
- Joined
- Aug 24, 2013
- Messages
- 4,460
All of the Arcen Games releases that I've played have been deeply flawed and disappointing. It's like they come up with an inspirational idea, and then give up while implementing it and just create a simple game over a bland mathematic puzzle. I had the fortitude to avoid Last Federation because I was still smarting after that game about Greece and the northern savages.
I haven't gotten a chance to check out the recent Arcen releases even though they do share a conceptual similarity with That Which Sleeps - I clearly should make the time.
I've NEVER been a fan of tactical interludes to Strategy games (outside of MOO2) but I found that our design really demanded it, the conflict between Agents and Heroes are actually very rare until endgame unless you force them but their strategic importance is massive - mostly heroes will simply be opposing you passively, gathering clues about your actions, or going about their own business. Sooo... to solve the problem (I'm working the gameplay video to demo this right now) I wanted it to be fast - damage is high and defense is either absolute or non-existent to attack types. Heroes attack fast and can overcome even a tough Agent quickly, but the counter to that is that you have Minions, which on your turn can "attack" a hero which damages the hero who instantly counterattacks the minion - the more important action is that it delays the hero - simulating a minion distracting or swarming a hero. It is powerful utility, but you'll often sacrifice your minions who are very useful on the strategy map.
There are no grids, no movement, just a "Final Fantasy"esque Boss battle feel that plays out very quickly. It is the number one area I want feedback on, the earlier the better - so I'm hoping to get as many strategy gamers as possible to play the demo when it's released.
I've NEVER been a fan of tactical interludes to Strategy games (outside of MOO2) but I found that our design really demanded it, the conflict between Agents and Heroes are actually very rare until endgame unless you force them but their strategic importance is massive - mostly heroes will simply be opposing you passively, gathering clues about your actions, or going about their own business. Sooo... to solve the problem (I'm working the gameplay video to demo this right now) I wanted it to be fast - damage is high and defense is either absolute or non-existent to attack types. Heroes attack fast and can overcome even a tough Agent quickly, but the counter to that is that you have Minions, which on your turn can "attack" a hero which damages the hero who instantly counterattacks the minion - the more important action is that it delays the hero - simulating a minion distracting or swarming a hero. It is powerful utility, but you'll often sacrifice your minions who are very useful on the strategy map.
There are no grids, no movement, just a "Final Fantasy"esque Boss battle feel that plays out very quickly. It is the number one area I want feedback on, the earlier the better - so I'm hoping to get as many strategy gamers as possible to play the demo when it's released.
Tell me, will thr game feature the construction and expansion of our own Mordor?
KingDinosaurGames a boardgame you might enjoy that has similar themes (although it's Warhammer Fantasy instead of Cthulhu) is Chaos in the Old World, where the players each control one of the Chaos gods struggling for control of the human Empire. It's a very good game, although I suspect it really needs the full complement of 4 players to shine.
5 players and The Horned Rat expansion 
I hope you'll be able to tailor your ancient evil at the start of the game. Giving yourself special powers or weaknesses would be a good way to increase replayability and bump difficulty for those who desire it.
Since we're suggesting games for inspiration, I'll throw Solium Infernum into the pot. It's a computer game (that plays like a board game) where the players are Dukes of Hell vying for the throne after the disappearance of Lucifer.
I hope you'll be able to tailor your ancient evil at the start of the game. Giving yourself special powers or weaknesses would be a good way to increase replayability and bump difficulty for those who desire it.
Since we're suggesting games for inspiration, I'll throw Solium Infernum into the pot. It's a computer game (that plays like a board game) where the players are Dukes of Hell vying for the throne after the disappearance of Lucifer.
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You will absolutely be constructing your own personal Mordor, Agents have a Labor statistic that is generally derived from their Minions - Giants are great at excavating old ruins or throwing up an infernal palace. However, it becomes another balancing point - sure you could build a throne of skulls to the sky but that might just tip off the world that some kind of ancient evil is arising.
I LOVE Chaos in the Old World, I'm a huge board game fan and I feel that board games really developed some amazing systems that you don't often see in PC games - we really want to bring some of those innovations home to the TBS genre.
As for tailoring your evil take a look at http://media.indiedb.com/images/games/1/34/33001/ThatWhichSleepsScenario.PNG, you go through multiple "King of Dragon Pass"esque questions that alter the world, your Old One, and your followers. The idea here is to give the players re-playability, like you said, on an otherwise static world.
Solium Infernum sounds awesome, oh man I want to play that - going to find some time today to squeeze it in.
I LOVE Chaos in the Old World, I'm a huge board game fan and I feel that board games really developed some amazing systems that you don't often see in PC games - we really want to bring some of those innovations home to the TBS genre.
As for tailoring your evil take a look at http://media.indiedb.com/images/games/1/34/33001/ThatWhichSleepsScenario.PNG, you go through multiple "King of Dragon Pass"esque questions that alter the world, your Old One, and your followers. The idea here is to give the players re-playability, like you said, on an otherwise static world.
Solium Infernum sounds awesome, oh man I want to play that - going to find some time today to squeeze it in.
We had a nice let's play of Solium Infernum with codexers here: http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/index.php?threads/i-want-to-be-a-satan-solium-infernum-aar.79997/
Anyway, your game sounds like it has a lot of potential. I'll definitely take the demo out for a spin.
Will there be eldritch devices for us to assemble? You know the deal: the ancient evil has to gather the 4 doodads to complete his machine/ritual that will make his ascent all but certain. But some of the doodads will be in posession of the heroes or neutral forces, forcing the dark one to attack them and steal the doodads back.
Anyway, your game sounds like it has a lot of potential. I'll definitely take the demo out for a spin.
Will there be eldritch devices for us to assemble? You know the deal: the ancient evil has to gather the 4 doodads to complete his machine/ritual that will make his ascent all but certain. But some of the doodads will be in posession of the heroes or neutral forces, forcing the dark one to attack them and steal the doodads back.
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That LP, oh man - I need to get more friends so I can go all out on SI.
As to eldritch devices - artifacts and rituals are a major component to the game, with many rituals only being available with the requisite artifacts, at the requisite space, with the requisite space. Rituals are Challenges that also have a "Complexity", the higher your arcane the faster you can complete them but the higher end rituals will always take 10+ turns for an agent to complete. In the meantime Heroes may get wind of your ritual, Champion Sages may act to counter it, and even Orders may throw themselves against a sufficiently threatening ritual - making sure you are ready to handle the repercussions of your challenge is strategically vital.
As to getting Artifacts, some of them are held in specific areas such as a Named Ruin or a Named Vault inside a Kingdom, but most are placed randomly within Ruins of a Certain Culture. If you are looking for the companion piece to the Anruni Sun Medal, you'll want to find other Anruni ruins. Heroes are also adventuring through these ruins and nabbing treasures, sometimes having no idea what is in their possession. This type of functionality in the game is meant to create dynamic, complex situations - the heroes may go on their own quest to retrieve the missing pieces of a set while you are attempting the same thing.
As far as "this is so powerful it ends the game" we really haven't settled on a lot of the end-game abilities and situations, especially nuclear options - it is instead the Alliance and Chosen One who have "game-ending" Deus Ex type abilities that you have to contend with. However, each Agent has a specific "Scheme" that is unique to themselves with special requirements to enact - these can be incredibly powerful when used in the right situation.
As to eldritch devices - artifacts and rituals are a major component to the game, with many rituals only being available with the requisite artifacts, at the requisite space, with the requisite space. Rituals are Challenges that also have a "Complexity", the higher your arcane the faster you can complete them but the higher end rituals will always take 10+ turns for an agent to complete. In the meantime Heroes may get wind of your ritual, Champion Sages may act to counter it, and even Orders may throw themselves against a sufficiently threatening ritual - making sure you are ready to handle the repercussions of your challenge is strategically vital.
As to getting Artifacts, some of them are held in specific areas such as a Named Ruin or a Named Vault inside a Kingdom, but most are placed randomly within Ruins of a Certain Culture. If you are looking for the companion piece to the Anruni Sun Medal, you'll want to find other Anruni ruins. Heroes are also adventuring through these ruins and nabbing treasures, sometimes having no idea what is in their possession. This type of functionality in the game is meant to create dynamic, complex situations - the heroes may go on their own quest to retrieve the missing pieces of a set while you are attempting the same thing.
As far as "this is so powerful it ends the game" we really haven't settled on a lot of the end-game abilities and situations, especially nuclear options - it is instead the Alliance and Chosen One who have "game-ending" Deus Ex type abilities that you have to contend with. However, each Agent has a specific "Scheme" that is unique to themselves with special requirements to enact - these can be incredibly powerful when used in the right situation.
Not unlike a certain short fellow finding something Preciousssss, eh? I really, really like the sound of that!
When our orc hordes grow, when we have gathered the artifacts of the nether age, when our agents are at their finest, will we be able to wage an all out war on the Free Peoples?
We designed the game so that war is not necessarily a build-up, but utilizing the resources already on the board. Early in the game you can quickly sway an orc kingdom to your side, and immediately begin to raid their neighbors. This is interpreted by the world not as YOU ("The Old One") fighting but as The Orc Kingdom up to its old tricks - waging this kind of war is not only possible but also very beneficial to you. It also presents the same problems as the Agents, if you muster up your dark power to aid the Orcs in early conquest you'll make the world suspicious, let the orcs fall and you lose a powerful ally.
Of course, you can also just raise troops "in secret" for a long time and then unleash your hordes, but sneaky heroes may come and investigate. Making sure they don't leave with word of your plans would be incredibly paramount.
Of course, you can also just raise troops "in secret" for a long time and then unleash your hordes, but sneaky heroes may come and investigate. Making sure they don't leave with word of your plans would be incredibly paramount.
Trash
Pointing and laughing.
This is actually sounding really bloody brilliant. Hope you guys get the balance between deep mechanics and, well, fun right.
http://www.indiedb.com/games/that-which-sleeps <-- New updates over at IndieDB, looking for feedback on the new GUI look and feel (if you prefer the older more straightforward GUI) and also if the Portrait matches the theme
Why, hello there little Cthulhu.
ph'nglui mglw'nafh cthulhu r'yleh wgah'nagl ftgagn!
ph'nglui mglw'nafh cthulhu r'yleh wgah'nagl ftgagn!
Hoodoo
It gets passed around.
- Joined
- Jun 5, 2009
- Messages
- 6,729
Kem0sabe
Arcane
Terrifying Logos, Localization, and Polish
Polish and Adding Features
It has been a rollercoaster week since we got our mention in Rock Paper Shotgun, with tons of new subscribers, followers, and people saying they can't wait to get their hands on the demo. More importantly, we also mustered up some financial support and have some more assets coming in to put a truly evil spin on a game that should be oozing theme. Also, we discovered that a lot of international gamers are huge fans of the genre, so as to not let them down we've added localization support to the entire project (which took some painful time) so our release will come with at least 3 languages fully supported and open to fan contributions.
You've probably seen this on our header already, but if not gaze in horror at these Cthulhu-esque abomination savoring the world as he wraps his shadowy tendrils about it. We love it. It was drawn by the fantastic Julio Iglesias whose art you can checkout here.
Upgrading GUI Assets
In addition to going through the project itself and optimizing a lot of code, we can now begin to finalize our GUI since we've had plenty of demo feedback. We started at the top, with the Scenario Generation sequence.
We took the original idea of a "void" that allows you to pick from any of the Scenarios and Mods you have loaded on your machine and utilized some assets to make a more thematic experience. As you begin the glyphs around the screen light up, until all of the questions are complete at which point a more dramatic sequence welcomes you into the game itself. Minimal effort but it certainly helps the theme some - the sequence itself is still very fast, nothing I hate more in a strategy game than having to waste time with something unnecessary.
This scene should look a little more familiar - the player has selected the scenario and has moved on to Old One Selection. We streamlined the display by putting the number of agents, and the length of sleep, for eachOld One and his two abilities beneath him - a tooltip provides further information on each of them. It's possible we need to darken the background of the text some, it can be a little hard to read - but that's simply a tweak at this point - we consideer the overall structure of the GUI to be Final.
Localizing, the Joy of Language
Localizing was not something that I had considered for initial release, but two factors swayed me. One being the international press coverage and attention we were receiving and the other being this reddit post which really went the distance to change my mind. I did a little research and discovered several tools to make my life easier and make localization a reality for us. We settled on this unity asset package which led to the spreadsheet you see above you. It lets you store your strings on Google Docs, get them autotranslated, and then we can have them properly handled once we have found the relevant translator. A pretty fantastic solution I have to say, but the amount of time it took me to go through and change all my string settings was exhausting.
We also had to modify the way we handle XML, separate language XML documents can be stored with MOD files to allow support for your creations across the world.
Wrapup
Lots of behind the scenes and marketing work over the last two weeks, much more than I would like but the reward was worth it - we have optimized our engine and are now bringing in our final GUI elements to make the game as fun to look at as it is to play. Still, I am excited to get back to working on the AI and the End Game scenarios that can play out.
Polish and Adding Features
It has been a rollercoaster week since we got our mention in Rock Paper Shotgun, with tons of new subscribers, followers, and people saying they can't wait to get their hands on the demo. More importantly, we also mustered up some financial support and have some more assets coming in to put a truly evil spin on a game that should be oozing theme. Also, we discovered that a lot of international gamers are huge fans of the genre, so as to not let them down we've added localization support to the entire project (which took some painful time) so our release will come with at least 3 languages fully supported and open to fan contributions.
You've probably seen this on our header already, but if not gaze in horror at these Cthulhu-esque abomination savoring the world as he wraps his shadowy tendrils about it. We love it. It was drawn by the fantastic Julio Iglesias whose art you can checkout here.
Upgrading GUI Assets
In addition to going through the project itself and optimizing a lot of code, we can now begin to finalize our GUI since we've had plenty of demo feedback. We started at the top, with the Scenario Generation sequence.
We took the original idea of a "void" that allows you to pick from any of the Scenarios and Mods you have loaded on your machine and utilized some assets to make a more thematic experience. As you begin the glyphs around the screen light up, until all of the questions are complete at which point a more dramatic sequence welcomes you into the game itself. Minimal effort but it certainly helps the theme some - the sequence itself is still very fast, nothing I hate more in a strategy game than having to waste time with something unnecessary.
This scene should look a little more familiar - the player has selected the scenario and has moved on to Old One Selection. We streamlined the display by putting the number of agents, and the length of sleep, for eachOld One and his two abilities beneath him - a tooltip provides further information on each of them. It's possible we need to darken the background of the text some, it can be a little hard to read - but that's simply a tweak at this point - we consideer the overall structure of the GUI to be Final.
Localizing, the Joy of Language
Localizing was not something that I had considered for initial release, but two factors swayed me. One being the international press coverage and attention we were receiving and the other being this reddit post which really went the distance to change my mind. I did a little research and discovered several tools to make my life easier and make localization a reality for us. We settled on this unity asset package which led to the spreadsheet you see above you. It lets you store your strings on Google Docs, get them autotranslated, and then we can have them properly handled once we have found the relevant translator. A pretty fantastic solution I have to say, but the amount of time it took me to go through and change all my string settings was exhausting.
We also had to modify the way we handle XML, separate language XML documents can be stored with MOD files to allow support for your creations across the world.
Wrapup
Lots of behind the scenes and marketing work over the last two weeks, much more than I would like but the reward was worth it - we have optimized our engine and are now bringing in our final GUI elements to make the game as fun to look at as it is to play. Still, I am excited to get back to working on the AI and the End Game scenarios that can play out.
Kem0sabe
Arcane
GUI Overhauls and Portraits
Keep on Polishing
The seemingly endless string of GUI overhauls continues as we finish up the peripheral screens, as well as the actual Main Screen itself. I also continue to get sidetracked by localization and modding support - every object and class now has a serialization helper class that makes breaking the object down into XML or bringing it back into the game incredibly easy. I also put in some extra effort to add full sprite and sprite sheet support to the mod elements so people can really go crazy with theme.
The Main View finally got its overhaul, we had left this to the end because we wanted to continue tomaximize the map view as I really prefer letting the map speak for itself. In the end you have what you see before you, let's go through the features and see what's what.
This is the Kingdom screen, giving you quick information about a given power on the map. As usualeverything is Tooltip enabled to see more information. We broke down a lot of the information into the bottom pane which is accessed via the buttons above, and instead of describing the benefits and traits of the nation we put them as icons near the top. Laws and Edicts are now part of the Court page, as most nations have very entries in Court.
Portraits
Lots of back end work, lot of GUI work, and a whole lot of localizing have gotten us back to where we were two weeks ago but with a much more polished product. In celebration of that we had the same fine artistJulio Iglesias, whose work can be seen here, make us some portraits. Here's a sample of the Peddler.
He's got something special in that bag of us, and damn that Donkey is clearly calling the shots. We are fans ofhaving portraits in the game because Theme is all-important, and a proper image can help establish that feel.
Wrapup
All this work was something we had told ourselves we wouldn't do until after Kickstarter, but it just seemed to make sense. I still have some cleanup work to do on the Serialization, and a few of the GUI screens just aren't quite looking right yet, but right after that gets done this week we will be back on schedule remaking the videos with our new art and releasing them one after the other.
It's always hard to decide when to stop, loop back, and try and improve on what you have versus moving forward as planned. I think we made the right call here, the level of increased interest we've seen raises the prospect of a good Kickstarter, and that raises the prospect of this game getting the treatment it deserves.
Keep on Polishing
The seemingly endless string of GUI overhauls continues as we finish up the peripheral screens, as well as the actual Main Screen itself. I also continue to get sidetracked by localization and modding support - every object and class now has a serialization helper class that makes breaking the object down into XML or bringing it back into the game incredibly easy. I also put in some extra effort to add full sprite and sprite sheet support to the mod elements so people can really go crazy with theme.
The Main View finally got its overhaul, we had left this to the end because we wanted to continue tomaximize the map view as I really prefer letting the map speak for itself. In the end you have what you see before you, let's go through the features and see what's what.
- At the Bottom - This is the area that gives quick information for whatever is selected, and in the current situation where nothing is selected it shows your Old One abilities you can activate.
- At the Top - the Main Header has three major components, the Dark Orbs show how much power you have accumulated (and how much longer till you wake), your resources are shown at top, and the mirror in the center allows access to your Agent recruitment screen.
- To the Left you can see a single icon, this is where your "world effects" and modifiers accumulate as simple icons
- Further to the left all your active agents are shown with what action they are currenly performing - when doing nothing it is simply the blank grey slate shown.
- Back to the far right are any current events
This is the Kingdom screen, giving you quick information about a given power on the map. As usualeverything is Tooltip enabled to see more information. We broke down a lot of the information into the bottom pane which is accessed via the buttons above, and instead of describing the benefits and traits of the nation we put them as icons near the top. Laws and Edicts are now part of the Court page, as most nations have very entries in Court.
Portraits
Lots of back end work, lot of GUI work, and a whole lot of localizing have gotten us back to where we were two weeks ago but with a much more polished product. In celebration of that we had the same fine artistJulio Iglesias, whose work can be seen here, make us some portraits. Here's a sample of the Peddler.
He's got something special in that bag of us, and damn that Donkey is clearly calling the shots. We are fans ofhaving portraits in the game because Theme is all-important, and a proper image can help establish that feel.
Wrapup
All this work was something we had told ourselves we wouldn't do until after Kickstarter, but it just seemed to make sense. I still have some cleanup work to do on the Serialization, and a few of the GUI screens just aren't quite looking right yet, but right after that gets done this week we will be back on schedule remaking the videos with our new art and releasing them one after the other.
It's always hard to decide when to stop, loop back, and try and improve on what you have versus moving forward as planned. I think we made the right call here, the level of increased interest we've seen raises the prospect of a good Kickstarter, and that raises the prospect of this game getting the treatment it deserves.
Monstrous Bat
Cipher
- Joined
- Dec 30, 2011
- Messages
- 638
Looks cool. Can't wait to play the demo.
All looks very, very neat. I wouldn't mind, however, if apart from the option of playing as a lovecraftian Great Old One of this or that kind, we could also become a more traditional sword and sorcery Dark Lord or Great Necromancer.
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