TECHNOLOGICAL LIMITATION

[Unradscorpion]

Well, MCA sure knows how to embarrass himself in the face of the fans...

 

[Ogg]

I found that Ingress that you meet in the Hive at the very beginning of PST, when you leave the mortuary is a perfect example of 'show, not tell'. She's a living demonstration of how dangerous plane traveling can be. Thanks to her facial animation, sure. (and thanks to her teeth of course)

 

[Wyrmlord]

Isn't reading much easier than listening? I remember that when I was giving the Test Of English As A Foreign Language, the Listening section absolutely wasted me, because listening requires a high degree of concentration. Particularly when trying to understand something causes you to miss out on what is said later on. Scored the lowest on it with 29/30.

Reading text is easy. It's done at your own pace, and it can be done quicker than listening to something. It just works. It's quick and easy.

It's not because "redding is teh hard" for people. It's because games are trying to be like movies. They are inclining towards a passive experience, based on cinematics and scripted sequences. Normally, just giving the text about what the mission is about is enough. But with the whole pseudo-movie game thing, they just won't.

 

[JarlFrank]

Reading text is easy. It's done at your own pace, and it can be done quicker than listening to something. It just works. It's quick and easy.

Yep, same opinion here. When I watch a movie and my thoughts drift away for a moment, I can easily miss what is said and I have to go back a few minutes and pay attention this time. When reading something, it's different. Text is at your own pace, you can imagine many things by yourself instead of having a graphics engine show it to you [and I think many things from PST would've looked silly and/or disappointing in graphics, like the sensory stones].
Maybe I feel that way because I already learned to read when I was three years old and grew up with big words and letters, and all those kiddos who want voice-acting don't like text because they still had problems with words that are longer than three letters when they reached 5th grade in school. Or maybe it's just because their attention span is below that of a fish. But once gaming has reached its maximum level of technology, and you simply *cannot* improve graphics and animations anymore because of photorealism, games will become more intelligent again because kiddos will be disappointed as the games don't get even shinier and they'll give up gaming, leaving it to the smart crowd.

Eh, whatever. What I actually want to say: Once "movie-like" gaming experiences become less significant in selling the game, good old text will return. And maybe so will 2D graphics for some kinds of games.

 

[Jaime Lannister]

Humans communicate with more than just words.

Look at Bloodlines, JarlFrank. It's completely possible for a game to be an active experience (the main quest only holds your hand a little, and the side quests do almost no handholding at all) and still have fully-voiced dialogue. I would have liked more body language, but it was still excellently done. Look at the talking heads in Fallout. Are you calling Fallout a passive experience?

 

[Jaime Lannister]

Lisa: If you were making Planescape: Torment right now, are there things you would do differently from the original release?

Chris: Probably start off with more combat - the beginning is very slow and exposition-heavy, and I don't think that helps get the player into the mystery of his character. This is something I tried to correct in the future opening levels of Black Isle games (notably IWD2, where you're in trouble the moment you step off the boat in Targos). Also, I would work more extensively in creating more dungeon and exploration areas, and do another pass on the combat mechanics in the game - the story and quest structure in the game ended up becoming the primary focus of design, and I think the game suffered as a whole when it came to combat.

hahahahahahahaha

Chris: Fuck RPGCodex, that place is for fags.

 

[JarlFrank]

Humans communicate with more than just words.

Look at Bloodlines, JarlFrank. It's completely possible for a game to be an active experience (the main quest only holds your hand a little, and the side quests do almost no handholding at all) and still have fully-voiced dialogue. I would have liked more body language, but it was still excellently done. Look at the talking heads in Fallout. Are you calling Fallout a passive experience?

Alright, there are many things that can be done well with good voice-acting and good character animations. Bloodlines and Half Life 2 are the two only games where I think it has been done well. You know, the stuff with facial and body animations.

But stuff like the sensory stones in PST? No. Some things are just too otherworldly and fantastic to be shown by graphics. For such things, where the player's own imagination plays a big role too, text is the perfect way of showing things.

Ideally, modern RPGs should utilize voice-acting, graphics *and* text for storytelling. Sadly, most modern RPGs only utilize the former two, and they don't even do it professionally. Voice-acting, facial animations, even physics engines - they all seem just tacked on instead of being an elementary element of the gameplay experience. More like "Let's add voice-acting and cool graphical shit to make the game sell better!" instead of "Let's make the game deeper by adding some good voice-acting and including a physics engine in a way that makes sense for the gameplay!".

 

[Bluebottle]

To be honest, I think most developers need to spend time working on the quality of what it is their characters are actually saying, before they start really worrying about whether or not the character's eyebrows are sufficiently animated to accurately convey their emotional state.

As a handy guide, in order of importance:

The quality of the words
-then-
Whether James Stewart or Laurence Olivier is better suited to convey those words
-then-
Whether the wrinkling of the characters nose sufficiently communicates to the player, the character's distress at seeing a bus full of nuns sodomised by angry bears.

 

[Vaarna_Aarne]

There are things that should be taken into account here: Chris probably has the old engineer/artist dilemma of "oooh, I wish I could have done something like that!" and that he's also part of a business. There are guidelines he follows when giving interviews. And besides, he seems way, way too humble to begin with.

 

[inwoker]

Remmember PST intro, right? One of the best experience ever. Not too much text there, eh? Modern games lacks in many aspects coz technology comes first and game is designed with techological limitation in mind. The thinking comes not like 'what would be good gaming experience' but 'what good experience can we create with this technology.'
The perfect case for good game design is when idea comes before technology and technology is used to create game. Bloodlines is good example where idea of good facial animations was first and implementation came second. I bet if PST had more time sensory stones would be realized in the same way game intro was.

Movies suffer from this too. Coz the thinking comes 'can we do movie with modern special effects' not like 'I got perfect idea, now can I visualize it with modern technology?'.

 

[Helton]

Seriously, Chris, god damn.

 

[Radisshu]

People who prefer books over TV are just clinging to inferior technology. It's kind of sad when you think about it. Like walking around your apartment when you can buy a motor-driven wheelchair.

 

[Wyrmlord]

Chris Avellone is a smart man. His work on Torment was single-handed, if his RPGWatch interview is any indication. One can't just go on and say that he is being a moron. And it's not like I am only trying to rationalize or defend him just because he is Chris Avellone.

The man knows that it is not about what he wants but what others want. That's why in NWN2, you are provided all sorts of camera angles, from WASD mode to isometric click-and-movie mode. He once said that a developer shouldn't impose on a player and must allow him to play it the way he wants to play it. He is only trying to see what everyone's preferences are.

Doesn't Vault Dweller keep saying that a game developer might start liking his own idea so much that he is incapable of seeing that others might not like it? Chris Avellone is capable of seeing what the others want. Or atleast he tries to.

But then again, whatever he did for PS:T worked for us, didn't it? Don't you think there's a possibilty that he had to suppress some of his own ideas for the game, and make it the way people like US would want it? Because games are all based on playtesting and completely discarding ideas.

 

[Helton]

Chris Avellone is a smart man. His work on Torment was single-handed, if his RPGWatch interview is any indication. One can't just go on and say that he is being a moron. And it's not like I am only trying to rationalize or defend him just because he is Chris Avellone.

I think Chris Avelon is a pretty cool guy. eh make tourment singlehanded and doesnt afarid of anything.

 

[WhiskeyWolf]

Seriously, Chris, god damn.

Yes VD, we know.

 

[AzraelCC]

I think Chris is thinking more along the lines of Pixar's storytelling style in their latest film Wall-E. Visuals CAN portray complex and abstract ideas when done right. I guess Chris is seeing how falling back on text sometimes defeats the advantage of cRPGs having visuals (or computer games in general). It's not that reading is too hard, but it's actually a challenge to evoke emotions or instigate ideas with the visuals when you're actually trying to make it good (as opposed to just dumbing a game down). But it's not impossible--movies have done it. Interestingly enough, games should have an easier time since the player is more involved (vis-a-vis a movie where the information is relayed one-way), but the short term entertainment demanded by most gamers prevent this; or perhaps the atmosphere of pure escapism in games.

 

[Jaime Lannister]

People who prefer books over TV are just clinging to inferior technology. It's kind of sad when you think about it. Like walking around your apartment when you can buy a motor-driven wheelchair.

I prefer books over TV. In fact, the gameplay is PS:T is so terrible that I gave up halfway through and read the (online) novelization. It's a good book, I just didn't want to grind to get to the next chapter.

Maybe Chris wants to make games instead of books now. :shrug:

 

[Radisshu]

People who prefer books over TV are just clinging to inferior technology. It's kind of sad when you think about it. Like walking around your apartment when you can buy a motor-driven wheelchair.

I prefer books over TV. In fact, the gameplay is PS:T is so terrible that I gave up halfway through and read the (online) novelization. It's a good book, I just didn't want to grind to get to the next chapter.

This isn't really what I meant, but either way, what did you find so atrocious about the gameplay? Or are you just being counter-sarcastic? It's difficult to tell on the intertubes.

 

[MINIGUNWIELDER]

His work on Torment was single-handed.

Look at the fucking cover.

You see the blue duder with the dreads?

He did Torment, and MCA coasted along on somebody else's work, effectively gaining his reputation that he has now, by means of theft.

 

[szoreny]

Humans communicate with more than just words.

Look at Bloodlines, JarlFrank. It's completely possible for a game to be an active experience (the main quest only holds your hand a little, and the side quests do almost no handholding at all) and still have fully-voiced dialogue. I would have liked more body language, but it was still excellently done. Look at the talking heads in Fallout. Are you calling Fallout a passive experience?

Alright, there are many things that can be done well with good voice-acting and good character animations. Bloodlines and Half Life 2 are the two only games where I think it has been done well. You know, the stuff with facial and body animations.

But stuff like the sensory stones in PST? No. Some things are just too otherworldly and fantastic to be shown by graphics. For such things, where the player's own imagination plays a big role too, text is the perfect way of showing things.

Ideally, modern RPGs should utilize voice-acting, graphics *and* text for storytelling. Sadly, most modern RPGs only utilize the former two, and they don't even do it professionally. Voice-acting, facial animations, even physics engines - they all seem just tacked on instead of being an elementary element of the gameplay experience.

Very true. What's more those graphics, V.O. and facial animations can simply get in the way. Graphics and sound of sufficient detail change the type of writing a game can support, by establishing this very expectation of 'show don't tell.' Wildly descriptive text doesn't work in detailed 3-D where you can clearly see an NPC's face, body, and movement. Lemme take Ingress from Torment and put her in the Witcher's modified Aurora engine. In both cases she's using a generic female peasant character model I've already seen a dozen times. In both cases the artists were unable to describe her unique condition with specific renders or models. In the aurora game I can clearly see her face and body, but wait, here's some text telling me about how she's all bent over and frothy and how her teeth are moving around inside her mouth. Wow ok, I can clearly see that's not happening, why i've got her here in full 3-D after all. And furthermore it *annoys* me a bit that this chick has the same face and clothes as those dozen other girls Ive seen so far, especially since the writers seem to want me to believe she's unique and bizarre.

In Torment I'm already relying on the text to tell me what's up, - since I'm hovering fifty feet above the ground and can't see what's going on down there anyway, except in a very generalized sense. So it doesn't bother me that Ingress's figure is generic, or that she has no special animations or voice sets....I understand that I'm seeing an abstracted vision of the fiction and my expectations adjust accordingly...

 

[Mareus]

Indeed, and that is why I am even more pissed there is no more 2D ISO games.

 

[Jaime Lannister]

In the aurora game I can clearly see her face and body, but wait, here's some text telling me about how she's all bent over and frothy and how her teeth are moving around inside her mouth. Wow ok, I can clearly see that's not happening, why i've got her here in full 3-D after all. And furthermore it *annoys* me a bit that this chick has the same face and clothes as those dozen other girls Ive seen so far, especially since the writers seem to want me to believe she's unique and bizarre.

Technological limitation. Ideally you would be able to see her bent over, frothy, and teeth chattering without the text to tell you that.

But I agree, if your 3D engine can't support that, then you should make a 2D iso game.

 

[Gragt]

"Show, don't tell" is a crucial rule of storytelling.

And a rule to break as much as possible, relying only on showing is the direct way tp mediocrity. Torment has the right amount of showing and telling and the telling parts are awesome.

 

[Wirdschowerdn]

As usual, Chris is always right, and the Codex hivemind is always wrong.

Go graphics go!

 

[Radisshu]

I just realised how fucking awesome a text-based game with a very free story and a really powerful AI (to understand advanced grammar, being able to play out different roles and reactions, etc) behind it would be.