Tactics Ogre: Reborn - remaster based on 2010 release

[somerandomdude]

LOL
LMAO, even

Enjoy your HP bloatmaxx 80+ min Dark Souls™ battles while passively waiting for the correct Buff Cards to drop—

Rather than complain, do what I did and adapt your strategy to the new mechanics. It's like I said in a previous post, it appears like the most efficient way to play this game is to use nothing but units who can hold their own, put some healing pots/revive items on each of them, and spread them out across the battlefield. Doing that allows you to better capitalize on those buff card drops. I dropped the strategy of using formations with lines and tanks very early, because I wasn't getting as many buff cards, and the AI opponents were grabbing most of the buff cards. There's zero advantages I can see in this game for holding lines/formations.

The biggest problem in this game for me is that squishy units are simply glass, without being cannons. I don't have a problem with glass cannon units, but they better pack some big guns, otherwise they're dead weight. Knight who takes 1-10 damage from an arrow shot that hit for double the damage a mage does in a + with a finisher attack, while the mage gets hit for 200+ from the same arrow is case and point for why mages are total shit. The mage needs to be hitting for double the damage of the knight, but instead the knight is 10x as tanky, and does double the damage of the mage.

 

[1eyedking]

Here's further proof of the disgusting HP bloat this terrible remake has.

I'm now at exactly the same spot—Phorampa Woods—using *exactly* the same gear, facing enemies that are roughly equal to my level.

Picture 1—Original PSP

Picture 2—Reborn

From the pictures alone you can tell I would require ~11 hits to defeat the Griffon in Reborn, vs. ~2½ hits in the Original. That's roughly ~9 more hits to defeat the *exact* same enemy, thus 9 more turns. It could be even worse since I'm at the Party Level Cap and this encounter should be +2 levels above me if I didn't grind...

And just for shits and giggles, I applied fear on the Griffon to see if anything changed. I didn't use Arycelle because she had grabbed a Buff Card, but the generic Archer is using the same gear plus a better ring, so they should have pretty much the same stats:

Picture 3—Reborn w/Frightened

OK, +60% damage is nice (she had proc'd Back Hit or True Hit or some shit, but whatever)
But I, uh... I still need to hit it ~7 times. That's still 5 more hits...
And I need to apply frightened to *all* enemies, because they're all overtuned like that...
And grab the Buff Cards™, of course, so I can make about 220-something damage instead, thus requiring 5 hits, or 3 more hits vs. the PSP

So, yeah...
Have fun playing this piece of shit and coping to infinity and beyond.

 

[somerandomdude]

Here's further proof of the disgusting HP bloat this terrible remake has.

I'm now at exactly the same spot—Phorampa Woods—using *exactly* the same gear, facing enemies that are roughly equal to my level.

You do make a good point there. The original SNES/PS1 versions were closer to the PSP version in HP scaling. Battles do take longer in this version of the game, but they're not necessarily more challenging. More time taken doesn't = more challenge. That HP bloat also means you can send your guys in up against 4 units and come out on top, whereas rushing one guy vs 4 would most likely get you killed really quickly in the older versions, so the game has been turned into a war of attrition. It's one of the reasons why I put a speed boost multiplier onto the game, and made it run at x2-x3 speed, because base battle speed is way too slow, too much time is wasted watching animations and AI targets moving to attack.

It gets really bad in the end game/post game dungeons, like palace of the dead become a considerably worse slough in this version of the game. It got bad enough to where I applied a x5 speed boost multiplier, and set most of my characters on AI, just to make it so battles were a couple of minutes per floor. With no speed boost, and controlling every unit myself, it's up to 15 minutes per floor, or 25 hours to get to floor 100. That's some serious padding right there.

 

[Gruncheon]

[...]

So your point, dear zoomer?

Just give up, that owned you so hard it was legendary. I'm still laughing.

Sure thing.

You can proceed with the classic Reddit-tier upboat circle-jerk by the way.

So anyway I think I made my points clear, and as I said, more and more people and veterans of the game are starting to realize just how bad this new system is given how Steam reviews keep getting worse and worse.

I actually agree with you about the cards.

 

[jungl]

Mages are not shit they do solid damage against both armor types one of the better units to cast haste spell on. Archers not bad either your supposed to plant them in one high spot in the battle and not move unless cant hit squishies. They can't be awesome at everything. Can't expect archers to go in melee to 360 no scope someone without getting slaughtered same deal with mages.

 

[Hobo Elf]

I use Mages and archers and have nothing but good things to say about them. They obliterate enemy backrow squishies which makes their frontline fold like an origami.

Rather than complain, do what I did and adapt your strategy to the new mechanics. It's like I said in a previous post, it appears like the most efficient way to play this game is to use nothing but units who can hold their own, put some healing pots/revive items on each of them, and spread them out across the battlefield. Doing that allows you to better capitalize on those buff card drops. I dropped the strategy of using formations with lines and tanks very early, because I wasn't getting as many buff cards, and the AI opponents were grabbing most of the buff cards. There's zero advantages I can see in this game for holding lines/formations.

The biggest problem in this game for me is that squishy units are simply glass, without being cannons. I don't have a problem with glass cannon units, but they better pack some big guns, otherwise they're dead weight. Knight who takes 1-10 damage from an arrow shot that hit for double the damage a mage does in a + with a finisher attack, while the mage gets hit for 200+ from the same arrow is case and point for why mages are total shit. The mage needs to be hitting for double the damage of the knight, but instead the knight is 10x as tanky, and does double the damage of the mage.

Basically this is the opposite of my experience. I use a bunch of tanks with Rampart aura and unless the enemy can fly over they do a really good job at holding the lines while mages wreak havoc with their AoE spells and Canopus flies around shooting healers with his xbow. I think what people are experiencing is that the tactics they prefer to use seem to be the "optimal" choice. I'm constantly experimenting with classes and formations and from what I've seen everything is viable in their intended niche.

 

[somerandomdude]

It's not really a matter of opinion, it's a simple math with mages.

The only type of mage that actually does damage is a Shaman with the elemental summon spells against 1 target, but you gotta go into the palace of the dead to get those, so it's pretty well end game. And the only thing you can actually oneshot with it is a target with low base HP. I've even brought 4 mages, and tried piling AOEs onto groups, and even after 4-5 AOES, targets are left standing, so I'm like wtf is the point? Yeah, I expect them to be a little better than that, and they were in the older versions.

I've completed the story, but I am absolutely not sloughing through the post game dungeons in this version of the game. This is the worst version of Tactics Ogre for me, even the PSP version with its flaws was better than this version, IMO. I'm playing the PSP version right now, and it's just a better version to play, IMO. It's playable without any modifications like speed boost multipliers, etc, and the battles don't take 15 minutes without a speed boost multiplier.

 

[Grampy_Bone]

Here's further proof of the disgusting HP bloat this terrible remake has.

Whoa! Can't argue with any of that. It's hard to justify an 8-fold increase in HP without any increase in player damage.

 

[Hobo Elf]

It's not really a matter of opinion, it's a simple math with mages.

The only type of mage that actually does damage is a Shaman with the elemental summon spells against 1 target, but you gotta go into the palace of the dead to get those, so it's pretty well end game. And the only thing you can actually oneshot with it is a target with low base HP. I've even brought 4 mages, and tried piling AOEs onto groups, and even after 4-5 AOES, targets are left standing, so I'm like wtf is the point? Yeah, I expect them to be a little better than that, and they were in the older versions.

The game you wanna play sounds pretty easy tbh. What point would there be in the other classes if all you needed to do was turtle at the starting area waiting for mana to regen and burst groups enemies down when they get close? And I'm not convinced that you couldn't do this. With a full group of Mages I dunno who could really survive the barrage when I'm finding that the two I have already do a significant amount of group damage that the enemy healers struggle to keep up with.

 

[1eyedking]

Seems like development had a lot of balance problems along the way. Doesn't surprise me.

Probably the reason why they started gutting classes, skills, and whatnot.

Here's further proof of the disgusting HP bloat this terrible remake has.

Whoa! Can't argue with any of that. It's hard to justify an 8-fold increase in HP without any increase in player damage.

Player damage was increased as well, but player-damage-to-enemy-HP ratio is lower in Reborn.
That's why I included both enemy HP and player damage in the screenshots I took, and calculated the amount of hits needed to kill the enemy unit.
The enemy-damage-to-player-HP ratio is lower in Reborn as well, but they do roughly 2x the relative amount of damage you do to them when compared to the PSP version.

So basically fights last 7x longer and enemies hit twice as as hard, and there's no way to mitigate this except reaching the Party Level Cap ASAP (which helps only to a certain extent, and during the early battles the cap is immediately increased) and prancing around the battlefield for 60+ minutes catching Buff Cards, because Frightening and/or Breaching all enemies during a single battle is reallistically impossible.

 

[somerandomdude]

It's not really a matter of opinion, it's a simple math with mages.

The only type of mage that actually does damage is a Shaman with the elemental summon spells against 1 target, but you gotta go into the palace of the dead to get those, so it's pretty well end game. And the only thing you can actually oneshot with it is a target with low base HP. I've even brought 4 mages, and tried piling AOEs onto groups, and even after 4-5 AOES, targets are left standing, so I'm like wtf is the point? Yeah, I expect them to be a little better than that, and they were in the older versions.

The game you wanna play sounds pretty easy tbh. What point would there be in the other classes if all you needed to do was turtle at the starting area waiting for mana to regen and burst groups enemies down when they get close? And I'm not convinced that you couldn't do this. With a full group of Mages I dunno who could really survive the barrage when I'm finding that the two I have already do a significant amount of group damage that the enemy healers struggle to keep up with.

Easy? Sure if you consider difficulty = longer time spent in battles, but I got a boarder view of difficulty. If you want to split hairs over it, you could technically put all characters on AI control, and as long as they got pots and revive items you basically can't lose, and that's as easy as it gets, you'll just need to go AFK for a bit. Denam (lord) can solo maps if he's setup right, it'll just take a very long time, the enemies will hit him for peanuts, but he still takes 3-5 hits to drop mobs, or 2 finishers. You're basically sitting there watching peanuts being delivered both ways, sloughing through all the various animations and pop ups for every little fucking thing done in the game.

More classes weren't made better/more viable in this version, if anything it's the total opposite. Certain classes that have always been good, still are, and many that used to be good are total junk, and most of the classes that weren't worth using before still aren't. The best example of a class that got better would be rune fencer/valkyrie.

Most important of all, the game wasn't fun. It was so unfun that I put 30-50% of my party on AI control, and turned the speed boost multiplier up to x3-x5 just to end the battles quicker. I'm only ever tempted to use shit like speed boost multipliers on games I don't find engaging. In other words, only easy games that somehow drag out unnecessarily. The real issue is the HP bloat. It's possible someone will release a community rebalancing mod that balances the stats more closely to what they were in the original version of the game, while keeping some of the newer systems in place.

 

[Mauman]

Ya know...I'm beginning to agree with 1eyedking. Even if he comes off a bit....rough....his points about the hp bloat and my personal dislike of the battlefield buffs is turning me off to this one.

That and I actually LIKED the Rogue class, so I'm a bit bitter about that :/

Think I'll wait till the pcmasterrace throws out some mods to fix this crap. Even then, I think I'll wait for a sale.

 

[mediocrepoet]

Ya know...I'm beginning to agree with 1eyedking. Even if he comes off a bit....rough....his points about the hp bloat and my personal dislike of the battlefield buffs is turning me off to this one.

I haven't played it or the original, I just thought Gruncheon's shitpost was glorious.

That being said, watching videos that showed all the cards spinning around on the battlefield gave me a good wtf moment. I 100% get why people would hate that. What I don't understand is who thought that would be a good design decision.

 

[Great Deceiver]

Gruncheon won the thread (thanks for the laugh), but 1ek makes good points (even if he's edgy about it).

It's really, really hard for me to play this Reborn version because of the terribly botched up sprites more than anything (tried restarting about 3x), but I like the redone music a lot.

I still want a translation patch for the superior Saturn version that almost no one has played.

 

[somerandomdude]

Gruncheon won the thread (thanks for the laugh), but 1ek makes good points (even if he's edgy about it).

I still want a translation patch for the superior Saturn version that almost no one has played.

Why is the Saturn version superior?

 

[Great Deceiver]

Gruncheon won the thread (thanks for the laugh), but 1ek makes good points (even if he's edgy about it).

I still want a translation patch for the superior Saturn version that almost no one has played.

Why is the Saturn version superior?

Well maybe superior wasn't the right word. But there's less loading compared to the PS1 port of the SNES original, better music and some voice acting (better than the Reborn JP VO). However, the tradeoff is some fucked up resolution issue, where sprites appear thinner.

 

[Sarissofoi]

In my times if one liked the game he played it. If he don't he didn't waste time on it. Now there is plenty of retards who waste time bitching about things they can't change or affect. Why waste time - that could be spend on something useful or fun - behaving like little bitch?
I am happy with the reborn. Its not perfect and have some bad sides but its good and fun and much much better than that garbage PSP version.
Anyway. Gonna go back to playing the game. Enjoy shit flinging here and dealing with angry tards.

 

[Grunker]

Here's further proof of the disgusting HP bloat this terrible remake has.

Whoa! Can't argue with any of that. It's hard to justify an 8-fold increase in HP without any increase in player damage.

See, this is what happens when you start to drink the kool aid. First you drink a little bit of the truth-adjacent (HP bloat), then you make directly false statements like that, and before you know it, you're one of the guys complaining about decline and streamlining while simultaneously crying that enemies actually attempt to take out your squishy backline

 

[Hobo Elf]

It's not really a matter of opinion, it's a simple math with mages.

The only type of mage that actually does damage is a Shaman with the elemental summon spells against 1 target, but you gotta go into the palace of the dead to get those, so it's pretty well end game. And the only thing you can actually oneshot with it is a target with low base HP. I've even brought 4 mages, and tried piling AOEs onto groups, and even after 4-5 AOES, targets are left standing, so I'm like wtf is the point? Yeah, I expect them to be a little better than that, and they were in the older versions.

The game you wanna play sounds pretty easy tbh. What point would there be in the other classes if all you needed to do was turtle at the starting area waiting for mana to regen and burst groups enemies down when they get close? And I'm not convinced that you couldn't do this. With a full group of Mages I dunno who could really survive the barrage when I'm finding that the two I have already do a significant amount of group damage that the enemy healers struggle to keep up with.

Easy? Sure if you consider difficulty = longer time spent in battles, but I got a boarder view of difficulty. If you want to split hairs over it, you could technically put all characters on AI control, and as long as they got pots and revive items you basically can't lose, and that's as easy as it gets, you'll just need to go AFK for a bit. Denam (lord) can solo maps if he's setup right, it'll just take a very long time, the enemies will hit him for peanuts, but he still takes 3-5 hits to drop mobs, or 2 finishers. You're basically sitting there watching peanuts being delivered both ways, sloughing through all the various animations and pop ups for every little fucking thing done in the game.

More classes weren't made better/more viable in this version, if anything it's the total opposite. Certain classes that have always been good, still are, and many that used to be good are total junk, and most of the classes that weren't worth using before still aren't. The best example of a class that got better would be rune fencer/valkyrie.

Most important of all, the game wasn't fun. It was so unfun that I put 30-50% of my party on AI control, and turned the speed boost multiplier up to x3-x5 just to end the battles quicker. I'm only ever tempted to use shit like speed boost multipliers on games I don't find engaging. In other words, only easy games that somehow drag out unnecessarily. The real issue is the HP bloat. It's possible someone will release a community rebalancing mod that balances the stats more closely to what they were in the original version of the game, while keeping some of the newer systems in place.

Yes, sounds like you want a game that's easy. And no, fights ending with two Mage nukes won't make other classes more viable. Why pick a Terror Knight to debuff enemies if you can just drop everyone with a single ranged spell? Why use a Dragoon for monster/dragon slaying when a Mage can kill everything with no effort? I'm not really sure what your point is apart from the fact that you wanted a game where you can go around clicking enemies and blowing up their HP bar with a single attack. I can understand that some people like fast and lethal combat more. I, too, very much enjoy combat systems such as SMT, early Wizardry and SaGa where fights really don't last longer than a round or two unless it's some special boss fight. But such balancing is going to be trickier in grid based tactics RPGs. There are many different versions of Tactics Ogre and everyone is going to have their favorite. I like that in this one not a single class choice is redundant. Class viability is not measured by how fast they kill every single unit type in the game. That'd be just poor balancing.

And, yeah. No doubt there will be mods that can change the game more to your liking eventually.

 

[somerandomdude]

Yes, sounds like you want a game that's easy

This game IS fucking easy, bro.

Your whole point about variety is moot. Nobody can tell me this game is balanced when zerkers are the only class that can do this (except for Lord, only because it gets zerker moves...). And not only do this against 1 mob, but this is an AOE that targets 5 spots around you, I could OHKO 5 mobs. That's with 1 attack card, and not even any debuffs on the target. So, yeah, mages could stand to be a little bit better than what they are. So, if you're tripping about Terror Knight and Dragoon not having any use, zerkers already cuckold those classes. Notice how I made Vyse a zerker instead of his previously godly unique class? That's because zerker shits all over Vyse's unique class.

 

[Hobo Elf]

Yes, sounds like you want a game that's easy

This game IS fucking easy, bro.

Nobody can tell me this game is balanced when zerkers are the only class that can do this. And not only do this against 1 mob, but this is an AOE that targets 5 spots around you, I could OHKO 5 mobs. That's with 1 attack card, and not even any debuffs on the target. So, yeah, mages could stand to be a little bit better than what they are.

Notice how I made Vyse a zerker instead of his previously godly unique class? That's because zerker shits all over Vyse's unique class.

Yeah, the Berserker can do some crazy shit when they get the procs and you collect the cards. Again, so what? That's not what Mages are about here. They are for consistent long range AoE damage. Not massive spike damage.

 

[somerandomdude]

Yes, sounds like you want a game that's easy

This game IS fucking easy, bro.

Nobody can tell me this game is balanced when zerkers are the only class that can do this. And not only do this against 1 mob, but this is an AOE that targets 5 spots around you, I could OHKO 5 mobs. That's with 1 attack card, and not even any debuffs on the target. So, yeah, mages could stand to be a little bit better than what they are.

Notice how I made Vyse a zerker instead of his previously godly unique class? That's because zerker shits all over Vyse's unique class.

Yeah, the Berserker can do some crazy shit when they get the procs and you collect the cards. Again, so what? That's not what Mages are about here. They are for consistent long range AoE damage. Not massive spike damage.

You act like Zerker getting 1 proc is all that big of a deal. Mages need meditate procs to sustain their pool, and pretty much anything relies on 1 proc. I'll post a SC in a min of how little damage mages do compared to zerkers, even with level 2 apocrypha nuke.

1 magic buff card. Catiua/princess class is the best mage, bar none, because she's relatively tanky for a mage, and isn't too squishy. Her stats are also really high. Heavenly Judge II is the level 2 apocrypha nuke.

 

[Hobo Elf]

Yeah, the Berserker can do some crazy shit when they get the procs and you collect the cards. Again, so what? That's not what Mages are about here. They are for consistent long range AoE damage. Not massive spike damage.

You act like Zerker getting 1 proc is all that big of a deal. Mages need meditate procs to sustain their pool, and pretty much anything relies on 1 proc. I'll post a SC in a min of how little damage mages do compared to zerkers, even with level 2 apocrypha nuke.

I won't stop you but I'll ask that you don't feel obligated to go out of your way just for this discussion. Not unless you really want to. I respect the fact that you think Mages underpeform but I disagree and comparing them with a different class role isn't the way to go about it imo. You might as well post an image of an ATK card buffed Dragoon one shotting a Dragon and ask why a Mage can't do this kind of damage. Simply put it's not their intended role. As I said earlier you found a set of tactics that works for you and that's how you like it, but it doesn't invalidate other options as others have already noted in this thread.

 

[somerandomdude]

I won't stop you but I'll ask that you don't feel obligated to go out of your way just for this discussion. Not unless you really want to. I respect the fact that you think Mages underpeform but I disagree and comparing them with a different class role isn't the way to go about it imo. You might as well post an image of an ATK card buffed Dragoon one shotting a Dragon and asking why a Mage can't do this kind of damage. Simply put it's not their intended role. As I said earlier you found a set of tactics that works for you and that's how you like it, but it doesn't invalidate other options as others have already noted in this thread.

Look, my whole point is this: mages were over nerfed. As were several other things. With zerkers/lord being the lone god classes.

Also, your comparison with dragoon is retarded, because they only do that to dragons or beasts, zerkers do that ^^ to literally everything. To further reiterate, analyze that SC above and see where the mage is standing, and the layout of the mobs, ask WWZD (What would zerker do), zerker would OHKO 3 mobs vs hit 6 for 500ish, and that's a very generous situation for a mage as well, hitting 6 with one spell is not typical at all, I usually get 3, maybe 4 with that. When zerkers crash into the lines, piles literally form around them, and not only do they do big damage when they get 1 proc, but they also hit for more damage than that mage does when they counter attack stuff.

Mages are situationally useful, but only at very end game, such as a mage geared with the type of loadout in the SC above, but early-mid game they're nowhere near even that good, and there's way better early-mid game classes like Rune Fencer, and Zerker (good for the whole game).

 

[Hobo Elf]

I won't stop you but I'll ask that you don't feel obligated to go out of your way just for this discussion. Not unless you really want to. I respect the fact that you think Mages underpeform but I disagree and comparing them with a different class role isn't the way to go about it imo. You might as well post an image of an ATK card buffed Dragoon one shotting a Dragon and asking why a Mage can't do this kind of damage. Simply put it's not their intended role. As I said earlier you found a set of tactics that works for you and that's how you like it, but it doesn't invalidate other options as others have already noted in this thread.

Look, my whole point is this: mages were over nerfed. As were several other things. With zerkers/lord being the lone god classes.

Also, your comparison with dragoon is retarded, because they only do that to dragons or beasts, zerkers do that ^^ to literally everything.

Mages are situationally useful, but only at very end game, such as a mage geared with the type of loadout in the SC above, but early-mid game they're nowhere near even that good, and there's way better early-mid game classes like Rune Fencer, and Zerker (good for the whole game).

Nerfed? Yes. Bad at the early game? No. I've been using two since the very start of the game and never felt like I was missing out on anything.