Subterranea - 3D, Turn-based, Fantasy CRPG

[Dorateen]

Nice work. Looks like you wouldn't want to mess with that fella. Some clever animations in there, I liked the web and the chain lightning at the end. Personally, I'm not a fan of the radial menu. I prefer a quick cast menu (NWN2), or something more like going into a spellbook to select spells. But that would require additional GUI resources.

 

[J1M]

Radial menus are terrible. I'm sure it was a lot of work, but there's a reason that productivity software doesn't use them.

 

[JMab]

I haven't played NWN2, so had to Google it:

http://www.metzomagic.com/images/2007/NWN22b.jpg

The Quickcast Bar looks like a quick-access grid/UI quick-bar that you can drag commonly-cast spell icons onto, with a table underneath of spells sorted by level. Does it pop up automatically whenever you select a spellcasting character, or does it pop up only with a hot key?

My drawing skills are pretty minimal, so am hoping to avoid having to create an icon for each spell, though I can see the benefits in instant recognizability.

A spellbook would be easier to represent graphically, with spells listed in an old-worldy font.

What about other actions in the game though, like combat options, going into inventory, feats/abilities/other interactions, etc? I've seen other NWN2 screenshots with rows of UI quick-bars configured with common actions. Wouldn't that take any from the immersion a bit? Some of the UI screenshots look as busy as a HUD on a modern fighter jet.

What's the main gripe against radial menus - having to follow the right angle with the mouse to navigate the nesting?

 

[Durwyn]

I personally never understood Codex hatred for radial menus. They are pretty fine to me, intuitive and easily readable and remind me of great games like ToEE (which your UI mimics I think) and Planescape: Torment. Also NWN 1 UI (which had both Radial and Quickbar) > NWN 2.

 

[JMab]

Yes, TOEE is obviously a significant influence on me for a modern CRPG UI design for the type of game I'm creating, though the game itself will look quite different. Hopefully the ex-Troika-ites don't mind.

Ultimately there will be similarities with any D&D 3.5e game, but I'm not fixed on any one UI approach and am looking for the most efficient/flexible/fun.

I personally find radial menus very efficient, as all Combat/Inventory/Spells/Actions together in one place, a right-click away. But 2 out of 3 Codexers in this short sample disagree, so would like to understand more about why!

Are there some people who just can't live without a lot of configurable quickbars now?

 

[Dorateen]

Here, JMab, this is what I was talking about. Not the quick action hot bar to drag spells, but the quick cast menu. Hitting the F key brings up the grid with spell levels listed vertically, and each available spell listed in a row across.

To me, that's more functional than a radial menu. But I'm not looking to influence your design objectives. Like you said, the need to create individual icons would become an issue. And ToEE had a radial menu, which worked well enough.

 

[JMab]

It's OK Dorateen, it's good feedback. I don't want to release a game where people say "I liked it... but <insert gripe like UI>". I'm a big believer in configurability/customization in games, so like with hexer's suggestion above about an opaque UI, I'll just introduce a few UI skinning options. Low cost and hopefully appealing to a wider audience.

On the issuing of character commands, anything that uses icons instead of text obviously increases the cost. I can cheat a bit by taking screenshots of the actual in-game spell effects and turning them into icons, though that doesn't include the spells with no visible effect, like Hold Person or Confusion.

I'll keep exploring this, as it's a false economy if I make lower-cost choices that end up affecting sales more significantly than the money I originally saved!

But as per my design principle above, I generally won't drop functionality, I'll just add more configurable options...

 

[Kaucukovnik]

A skill/spell bar in addition to the radial menu would help immensely. Like NWN did it.

Edit:

I personally never understood Codex hatred for radial menus. They are pretty fine to me, intuitive and easily readable and remind me of great games like ToEE (which your UI mimics I think) and Planescape: Torment. Also NWN 1 UI (which had both Radial and Quickbar) > NWN 2.

Well, what makes a radial menu superior to a classical one? Natural text direction is a big plus for the latter.

 

[J1M]

Here is the correct solution. I came up with this a few years ago, and had been keeping it to myself for use in a project. Since that project is taking a long time, I've decided to share it.

Use a wow-style 0-9 numeric input. Then nest the abilities into categories. Each action will require between 1 and 3 key-presses of easily reachable keys depending on its frequency of use.

ie. Cast Spell [3] -> Summon [2] -> Dire Badger [3]

If the player only has one summon, collapse the category and use:
Cast Spell [3] -> Summon Dire Badger [2]

The secondary and tertiary action bars collapse and expand in a context-sensitive manner. 0-9 or mouse to select, and ESC to go back. Commonly used abilities are quickly memorized as "22" or "112" by players.

 

[Durwyn]

Well, what makes a radial menu superior to a classical one? Natural text direction is a big plus for the latter.

Sincerely, I've never had issues with reading rotated texts, but maybe there's something wrong with me. For me they just look slick, are compact and allow for quick recognition of possible actions even when presented as icons (as in for ex. Blackguards).

 

[Kaucukovnik]

look slick

I can give you that one.

are compact

Normal menu can pop up anywhere on the screen, even if you click in the very corner. Radial menu needs some space around it.

allow for quick recognition of possible actions even when presented as icons

Ass opposed to regular menu?

I do not downright hate radial menus, but I don't consider them optimal either.

 

[JMab]

I think that the main advantage of the radial menu is the equal proximity of your cursor at the starting point to all 1st level menu options. In a normal vertical menu, items at the bottom are just that tiny bit more onerous to drag the mouse down to select. Not noticeable initially, but slightly annoying over time.

 

[JMab]

I've just done a post about the Party Formation functionality in Subterranea:

http://cloudninegames.net/party-form/

For those who hate following links:

If in-depth tactical combat is implemented well, positioning is critical. And when positioning is critical, getting your party formation right is the first thing you need to do. Given the importance of getting the party formation right in Subterranea, I’ve implemented a flexible Party Formation window to allow you to position your characters exactly where you want them:

You can drag your party portraits exactly where you want them to be in formation, and when you click to set your destination, they will form up around the spot represented by the multi-arrow icon in the center. Want your Barbarian to be half a step behind your Fighter? Done. Want your Wizard to be 12 diagonal feet from your Rogue? No problem.

Here’s a shot of a 6 character party moving in the formation set by dragging the portraits around in the Party Formation window above:

 

[JMab]

New post on my site:

http://cloudninegames.net/path-less-taken/

This screenshot is from a turn-based battle scene in the upcoming Teaser Trailer #1 for the Steam Greenlight campaign. The Drow Wizard has won the initiative round, and has started to flee up the stairs and out the door. The party’s Rogue is next, and is considering a Sneak Attack on the fleeing Wizard. However, the path that she must take to execute the attack will go through a Drow Warrior’s Threatened Area and will therefore provoke an Attack of Opportunity. She is weighing up whether to risk this by attempting a tumble through the Threatened Area, or another action…

You’ll be able to see the indicators working in real-time in the video. The green path indicators will show you how far you can move while still taking a Standard Action and how far you can move with a Double Move Action. The red Threatened Area indicators will pop up if your path will take you through a Threatened Area, thus provoking an Attack of Opportunity.

 

[J1M]

Looks good. I would prefer to see a grid though.

 

[JMab]

I still might, but I still think a grid is an unnecessary abstraction in a modern CRPG. Without a grid, I can position my characters exactly anywhere in the world I want to. I have no funny environment design requirements with the size of rooms and doorways, etc. With the computing power of modern computers, I can calculate exact navigation paths as I move my mouse cursor, pretty much instantly.

I could always project a grid onto the environment, but then I should also change the nav paths to move along the grid squares or hexes, in unnatural ways like a chessboard. I think a more natural, non-grid-based movement could be better, but I need to keep trying to prove it.

Following my design principle of configurability, I may also end up including a configurable option for whether to use a grid or not...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Durwyn]

... but I still think a grid is an unnecessary abstraction in a modern CRPG.

I strongly appreciate and support this. It looks really great man! Keep up the good work.

 

[JMab]

... but I still think a grid is an unnecessary abstraction in a modern CRPG.

I strongly appreciate and support this. It looks really great man! Keep up the good work.

Thanks Durwyn, much appreciated!

I think the grid fans are motivated by wanting to get the maximum amount of tactical information on movement, facing, threatened area, etc. I think I can display just as much information in a freeform 3D environment though. Which I think will make the game animation look more fluid, the environments more natural and the physics-based emergent gameplay (e.g. sliding 16.5 feet across the floor after being hit by a swinging block trap) fit in better.

I'd be interested in views to confirm or deny that grid motivation statement though... J1M?

 

[J1M]

... but I still think a grid is an unnecessary abstraction in a modern CRPG.

I strongly appreciate and support this. It looks really great man! Keep up the good work.

Thanks Durwyn, much appreciated!

I think the grid fans are motivated by wanting to get the maximum amount of tactical information on movement, facing, threatened area, etc. I think I can display just as much information in a freeform 3D environment though. Which I think will make the game animation look more fluid, the environments more natural and the physics-based emergent gameplay (e.g. sliding 16.5 feet across the floor after being hit by a swinging block trap) fit in better.

I'd be interested in views to confirm or deny that grid motivation statement though... J1M?

First, there isn't any new ground to break here. If you would like to know how a lack of grid will turn out, just boot up Temple of Elemental Evil. It is 3rd edition D&D with freeform movement.

Second, my preference for grids is due to my distaste of pixel hunting. I want to spend my time with the game deciding what to do. I don't want to spend it trying to move my mouse to exactly the right spot so I am in range of a target, but not closer than I need to be. I don't want to get frustrated because it looked like that doorway was blocked by one unit, but it was two pixels wider than the camera angle led me to believe and an orc slipped through.

To illustrate my feelings on the issue, I would suggest you play two strategy games. They are both games where you build an economy by placing buildings and making good use of land: Anno 1404 and Settlers 7. Anno has a grid and building is something that you do without any hassle. In comparison, Settlers 7 is freeform building and a lot of time is spent trying to fit buildings and fields closely together.

 

[JMab]

First, there isn't any new ground to break here....

Thanks for the detailed feedback J1M, appreciated.

Obviously I boot up TOEE quite a lot, for interface design tips!

I hate pixel hunts too, and if Subterranea started exhibiting such a design flaw, I'd change it. On the attack range for weapons, I think I could handle this by stopping the character exactly x feet from the enemy target, where x = the reach of the weapon. This would be done automatically when you click on a target to melee attack from a distance and would result in your character sidling up close to the enemy for a dagger stab, vs. stopping a couple of feet away for a longsword slash vs. stopping a good 10 feet away for a longspear stab.

On doorway blocking, I could do a 2nd, inner overlay to show the circle of space your character is taking up (in conjunction with the wider "threatened area" overlay). Or just adjust the green character selection indicator to be exactly the character width. I've just got to keep playtesting this...

 

[JMab]

Quick post about puzzles and riddles. Getting ready for a joint Greenlight/modest Kickstarter campaign at the moment...

http://cloudninegames.net/puzzles-riddles/

Here’s a shot of a party halfway through trying to solve a puzzle in Subterranea.

A number of puzzles and riddles in a dungeon can provide welcome fun as an alternative to combat. The challenge is introducing puzzles and riddles with solutions that aren’t already known by the player, or that can be instantly Googled.

You might recognize the puzzle above, it’s a supposedly ancient puzzle that needs a bit of brainpower to solve!

 

[muds_animal_friend]

Towers of Hanoi? Sometimes I still wake up screaming from the Space Rangers 2 four tower version: a text adventure implementation where the pegs and tokens being moved weren't even visible.

 

[JMab]

Yes! I'm thinking of puzzles where you actually have to solve them in-game, rather than just breeze through via a quick Google search.

It's only an 8 disk Tower of Hanoi, so it shouldn't be overly challenging...

 

[Koschey]

More details about the kickstarter: http://cloudninegames.net/kickstarter-greenlight/
It'll start in a few hours. Infinitron

 

[JMab]

Thanks Koschey, appreciated! I had a quick chat with CrookedBee a few days ago about making an announcement in the news section once it is live.

This is the first teaser trailer to support the Kickstarter and Greenlight campaigns, by the way: