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Starfield - Epic Shit Takes from Bethestards

Non-Edgy Gamer

Grand Dragon
Patron
Glory to Ukraine
Joined
Nov 6, 2020
Messages
14,946
Strap Yourselves In
Imagine if you wrote several games that were well-received by mainstream critics but got forced into handing the reins over to someone else due to fan pressure, then that person screws up so badly they wind up getting fired but the fans still blame you for everything.
Except Emil's quest design has sucked since Oblivion.

Everyone kissed his ass and overhyped the Dark Brotherhood questline that made zero sense and relied on gimmicks like poisoned apples that were abandoned in the sequel, or replaced with cringe characters like the Norman Bates knock-off assassin or the loli vampire.
 

Gargaune

Magister
Joined
Mar 12, 2020
Messages
3,215
I don't consider "we ran out of time" a good excuse when talking about the climatic finale. Even though it happens near the end chronologically, it's pretty clearly one of the most important parts of your game that deserves attention/planning early on in the process.
That excuse doesn't hold water about anything in relation to Starfield. The game was originally slated to launch in 2022, before Microsoft got a hold of it and extended development by a half year and then another half year. A year's a pretty long "last minute" by my clock.
 

Latelistener

Arcane
Joined
May 25, 2016
Messages
2,594
thinking "Skyrim in space" would be enough.
but "skyrim in space" WOULD HAD BEEN enough. possibly using today's computing power. instead it's worse at everything skyrim does, and looks the same while requiring 10 times the power.
actually, starfield existing at all was a mistake. imagine how much better it would have been if starfield were an elder scrolls game and you switched planets using magic like Doctor Strange instead of whatever the fuck this is
Even if Starfield had a seamless world without a single loading screen, literally nothing would have changed.

It's the same pipe dream as "mods will fix it".
 

Child of Malkav

Erudite
Joined
Feb 11, 2018
Messages
2,582
Location
Romania
Not enough time?
Making the same game, on the same engine, with the same tools, devs (a part of them anyway) having experience of over 20 years in the company, a game supposedly 25 years in the "making" (read: dreaming about it) and 7 in development, almost infinite resources, an army of modders and this is what they come up with? And modders giving up on it soon after.
Pfft, but hey I;m sure there's going to be redemption story arc videos for this cosmic turd in the future.
 

Robotigan

Learned
Joined
Jan 18, 2022
Messages
397
Imagine if you wrote several games that were well-received by mainstream critics but got forced into handing the reins over to someone else due to fan pressure, then that person screws up so badly they wind up getting fired but the fans still blame you for everything.
Except Emil's quest design has sucked since Oblivion.

Everyone kissed his ass and overhyped the Dark Brotherhood questline that made zero sense and relied on gimmicks like poisoned apples that were abandoned in the sequel, or replaced with cringe characters like the Norman Bates knock-off assassin or the loli vampire.
Almost all but the most self-serious RPGs have stupid shit. Baldur's Gate was THE RPG of its generation and one of its main characters is a Ranger that takes orders from a hamster. Certain gamers overestimate the medium and feel compelled to be really snobby to compensate. The point is that Emil is able to execute his ideas and follows the cardinal rule of storytelling "Don't be boring." No one seriously considers him to be the Aldous Huxley of video game storytelling, don't worry.

I'm mostly annoyed that the Fallout fandom was dickriding Shen post-Far Harbor and then he fumbles the bag with Starfield and they all go back to blaming Emil. Come claim your boy cowards.
 

Child of Malkav

Erudite
Joined
Feb 11, 2018
Messages
2,582
Location
Romania
Btw I just remembered: didn't Sawyer say after finishing NV that making content using the GECK tool was easy and fast? And he had little experience with the thing.
So how is it for an experienced developer at Bethesda who worked with this tool for the past decades or so?
Just overall shamefur disprey.
 
Joined
Mar 3, 2010
Messages
8,879
Location
Italy
Not enough time?
Making the same game, on the same engine, with the same tools, devs (a part of them anyway) having experience of over 20 years in the company, a game supposedly 25 years in the "making" (read: dreaming about it) and 7 in development, almost infinite resources, an army of modders and this is what they come up with? And modders giving up on it soon after.
Pfft, but hey I;m sure there's going to be redemption story arc videos for this cosmic turd in the future.
let's not forget:



and it's not just "like it", it's actually waaaaay better.
 
Joined
Mar 3, 2010
Messages
8,879
Location
Italy
do you know the story of the monkeys and the bananas on the ladder? it wouldn't work. the guys from galciv hired the fall from heaven 2 dude, and even him didn't accomplish much. like, anything at all, as if he never existed.
 

Ravielsk

Magister
Joined
Feb 20, 2021
Messages
1,539
True. Imagine the nightmare that is to manage a game project with hundreds of Bethesda tier devs.


Honestly I am about 97% sure that the article is just a deliberate lie for the sake of damage control. Starfield has been in the making for so long that arguing with "not enough time" is at best a tacit admission of incompetence and at worst just bald faced lie. How can you spend 7 years in development of which at least a year was done with microsoft money and somehow still be "strapped for resources"? The only way that is possible would be for Tod to pocket 500k from each million in the budget or just absurd levels of incompetence.

Either way its just bullshit.
 

Butter

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Oct 1, 2018
Messages
7,698
Bethesda's engine is famed for fostering rapid content creation, so how can they spend 7 years in development and have so little game to show for it? Where are the hundreds of unique quests and dungeons that Oblivion and Skyrim had?
 

Iucounu

Educated
Joined
Jul 4, 2023
Messages
621
Bethesda's engine is famed for fostering rapid content creation, so how can they spend 7 years in development and have so little game to show for it? Where are the hundreds of unique quests and dungeons that Oblivion and Skyrim had?
But does it mean the full work force has been busy during all these years? Hopefully that 7 year figure is just part of the building of hype, while in reality most of the work was done in a few months. Or maybe lots time is wasted due to lack of direction.
 

Gargaune

Magister
Joined
Mar 12, 2020
Messages
3,215
Bethesda's engine is famed for fostering rapid content creation, so how can they spend 7 years in development and have so little game to show for it?
What I'm more curious about is the headcount. Everyone knows staffing up is a case of diminishing returns, especially across distinct locations, but these numbers are pushing it. Per the PC Gamer piece, Skyrim was around 100 people, Fallout 4 at 150, Starfield's over 500... Even accounting for higher labour demands in the visuals department, is Starfield at least twice as large as Fallout 4 in terms of playable content? And I'm talking about bespoke, handcrafted designs excluding the proc-gen crap, the whole (often misguided) idea behind proc-gen is to create more content with less labour.
 

Robotigan

Learned
Joined
Jan 18, 2022
Messages
397
Bethesda's engine is famed for fostering rapid content creation, so how can they spend 7 years in development and have so little game to show for it?
What I'm more curious about is the headcount. Everyone knows staffing up is a case of diminishing returns, especially across distinct locations, but these numbers are pushing it. Per the PC Gamer piece, Skyrim was around 100 people, Fallout 4 at 150, Starfield's over 500... Even accounting for higher labour demands in the visuals department, is Starfield at least twice as large as Fallout 4 in terms of playable content? And I'm talking about bespoke, handcrafted designs excluding the proc-gen crap, the whole (often misguided) idea behind proc-gen is to create more content with less labour.
As someone that isn't opposed to procgen/radiant content what baffles me is how underutilized that stuff is. Prior to release there was some fear that the content would be stretched too thin and I was pretty adamant that wouldn't be the case because I naively assumed they would use some of the tricks from their previous games:
1) Spawn a quest item into the next dungeon container the player opens.
2) Spawn an NPC that can deliver a quest to the player wherever they are.
3) Use radiant events to introduce quests.
4) Simply send the player to interesting locations. This sounds obvious but Starfield has dozens of custom locations with no quests pointing to them.

The whole premise is a big space exploration game. I thought it went without saying that figuring out how to deliver interesting content to the player while they're stranded in the middle of nowhere was a key design challenge but for some reason the design team decided to hug the city hubs even more tightly than in games past.
 

Gargaune

Magister
Joined
Mar 12, 2020
Messages
3,215
Prior to release there was some fear that the content would be stretched too thin and I was pretty adamant that wouldn't be the case because I naively assumed they would use some of the tricks from their previous games
I'm in the same boat. Prior to the game's release, I actually said that "what Bethesda do well, they do very well" precisely in relation to how they've blended and rotated procedural content into a handcrafted open world, with consistent improvements from Oblivion through Skyrim and Fallout 4. But all I've seen about Starfield seems to indicate that suddenly fell out their backside.
 

ind33d

Educated
Joined
Jun 23, 2020
Messages
985
Yesterday I hijacked a House Varuun ship, finished the Mantis Lair, and ran some Ryujin/Crimson Fleet quests. Afterwards, I installed these mods and had a significantly better time.

The amount of work required to make Starfield good seems minimal. Once you fix the UI and replace the demoralizing music, Starfield is at least an 8/10. Unfortunately, the game has almost no mechanics, and the ones that do exist are asinine, like ship parts being sold based on your level similar to Cyberpunk Street Cred. I enjoy the combat, but it's either a faceroll or you get one-shot by a robot while your companion walks directly into your line of fire.

What's really lacking are an AD&D-style objective morality system and a main quest that's just a series of increasingly difficult dungeons a la Daggerfall. Someone said the beta game was about using the Lodge to plan star-routes to other planets to loot like Borderlands. If someone could implement the jump system from Classic Traveller and make the routes cost crafting components, 99% of the game's problems would be fixed. There should be multiple levels of fast travel so if you warp to a planet for cheap, you could end up in the wrong star system. Misjumps/engine stalls would also be an easy way to implement random events for minimal devtime.

 

Robotigan

Learned
Joined
Jan 18, 2022
Messages
397
Bethesda's engine is famed for fostering rapid content creation, so how can they spend 7 years in development and have so little game to show for it? Where are the hundreds of unique quests and dungeons that Oblivion and Skyrim had?
Ship modules. They're by far the highest quality assets in the game and there's a lot of them.
If someone could implement the jump system from Classic Traveller and make the routes cost crafting components, 99% of the game's problems would be fixed.
They had this up until they cut it within a year of release. Helium-3 was supposed to be a major mechanic and the primary reason to construct Outposts was for refueling.

There's a ton of hints the game was initially supposed to be way more space-centric. Like literal hints, vestigial tool tips that say C class vessels cannot land on planets. I think the sad reality is the game they were initially making was way way too niche for mass audiences. The early builds probably involved landing on planets so you could mine enough iron to repair your grav drive, ensuring you had a radiation resistant suit so you could survive planet-side, buying health kits off the occasional trading vessel, etc. and playtesters were not having it. They had to pivot to more terrestrial exploration. Probably where the "not enough time/resources" comments come from. They had a mid-development reboot.
 

ind33d

Educated
Joined
Jun 23, 2020
Messages
985
k7FAnEH.png

A lot of people don't know this, but just outside your field of vision, an angry black woman is watching you. Always.
 

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