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So, System Shock 2....oh the horror!

RoSoDude

Arcane
Joined
Oct 1, 2016
Messages
730
Yeah, I'm still working on stuff.

Alternate Start
This mod removes the character creation sequence from the game, instead starting the player with a blank slate and some cyber modules to spend for maximum character building flexibility.

Cutscene Skipper
This mod removes the Many cutscene from the Cargo Bays and the SHODAN cutscene from Ops to speed up repeat playthroughs.

Scary Monsters AI Enhancement 1.02
Cyborg Assassins are much better at escaping and resuming attack instead of stupidly fidgeting in place, and Spiders are faster and much more likely to jump on your face.

SS2 - Rebalanced Skills and Disciplines 1.07
Major focus of this update is reworking the SHODAN bossfight:
  • Shields now change color as they're damaged
  • Shields are regenerated when the boss is below 50% health
  • Rebalanced health and weaknesses
Watch below for a demonstration (combat approach and hacking approach):

 

urmom

Learned
Joined
May 28, 2020
Messages
308
I have to replay SS2. It's been so long I remember... not liking it as much as SS1 and that's pretty much it. Otherwise I'm completely blank.
 

Lord_Potato

Arcane
Glory to Ukraine
Joined
Nov 24, 2017
Messages
10,043
Location
Free City of Warsaw
During the last 20 days, I've beaten Shodan not once, but twice, completing my virgin runs of System Shock 1 & 2.

What a ride. Especially the 2nd game. Very atmospheric, claustrophobic, and intimidating experience. I can't really say I enjoyed all of it (backtracking and getting lost in those labyrinthian decks was tiresome), but I fully respect what the guys at Looking Glass strived to, and indeed achieved. I am even more impressed that they did it using the limited technology of the time.

There are no real builds in SS1, but in 2 I marched through the game dual-classed as soldier-hacker and I must say it was a very effective combination. Didn't bother with Psi, too few psi hypos to feel comfortable. Even without that aspect, managing limited resources was tough, sometimes desperate. I murdered Shodan on my last medical kit and with a few last bullets of the assault rifle. That's how you balance the game. Developers of today, play it and learn.

Respawns did not bother me so much, they were quite limited if you did not trigger the alarm. Once they even saved my playthrough when I badly needed nanites for a quest-critical item. I simply farmed the cash from respawning hybrids. On Rickenbacker I think only the spiders respawned and in the bowels of the Many respawns only happened in the final location. It was acceptable - and an effective way to keep the tension high and make me suspiciously look around every corner.

I don't have high hopes for System Shock 3, so where do I go from here? Is Prey 2017 a decent spiritual successor? From what I heard Bioshock games aren't.
 

Tweed

Professional Kobold
Patron
Joined
Sep 27, 2018
Messages
2,880
Location
harsh circumstances
Pathfinder: Wrath
Is Prey 2017 a decent spiritual successor? From what I heard Bioshock games aren't.

The best one we're liable to get. Arkane did what they had been doing up to this point and taking the good things from past games and trying to mix that in with newer concepts so there's a lot of Dishonored in Prey. The game has its faults, especially with enemy variety and easily exploited mechanics and a lot of people freak out at the late game because something fun happens, but I personally loved the shit out of it and Mooncrash.
 

LarryTyphoid

Scholar
Joined
Sep 16, 2021
Messages
2,233
Complaining about the combat in System Shock 2 is like complaining about the combat in Ultima Underworld. It's there to expend your resources and make you grapple with the game's RPG mechanics, not necessarily to be an action-packed test of reflexes. It's an especially odd complaint for SS2 since it's the Looking Glass game with the best action combat (sole exception being Strike Force Centauri).

Grenades are cool in SS1 but that game's combat is mostly corner-peeking (which is just fine for that game, of course). Thief's combat is surprisingly complex but intentionally bullshit to dissuade you from using it as a solution. Deus Ex's combat is arguably on the same level as SS2's, give or take - RoSoDude and Ash may take issue with that claim, but I haven't played GMDX yet.
 

RoSoDude

Arcane
Joined
Oct 1, 2016
Messages
730
Dark Engine melee is considerably more developed than in Deus Ex. In the former, the player's attack swings are actually simulated to collide with enemy models for damage or indeed to be blocked by the enemy's melee weapon (this is obvious in Thief but works in System Shock 2, even monkeys can block wrench strikes if both attack at the same time). In SS2 there's a more interesting dance to charging up a wrench strike, releasing it as you approach the enemy, and then backing away as soon as it connects. If you miss, the timing can be extended by rotating your aim so that the tail end of the wrench swing collides with your target. Thief has some more player mechanics at work for melee (blocking, right-to-left swings if you aim to the right side of the enemy) but enemy attack motions are pretty bullshit and not meant to be fought fairly, especially not versus a crowd. Meanwhile, Deus Ex melee just projects a hitscan check at the player's crosshair at a specific frame in the attack animation to see if there's an enemy in range (which has nothing to do with the actual weapon model). Attack animations are also randomized with slightly different timing for each so it's really just a spamfest once you're in range. To make things worse, Deus Ex hands the player a 100 damage laser sword (for reference, the crowbar does 6 and the sniper rifle does 25) halfway through the game, capable of oneshotting most enemies with no skill or aug investment and thus spitting in the face of melee builds. SS2 lets you become overpowered with melee too, but it takes some investment.

Deus Ex's ballistic simulation is more advanced than SS2's, but at the same time less robust due to some terrible implementation. I don't mean the accuracy system that requires you to stand still to stabilize your aim at low weapons skill, that's actually decent. I mean the wonky recoil that can take a full second to reset, hitscan accuracy tied to max range so the sniper rifle is pinpoint accurate at untrained skill, fake bullet drop for hitscan but only when you would have hit your target so you can't adjust for it by aiming higher, projectile range affecting only the distance at which shots start to drop off rather than their speed, a bug that makes the laser mod do nothing on scoped weapons, restrictions on the scope state that prevent a transition while you're in a firing anim, incomplete effects and poor sound design, lack of player feedback for hit registration, or a whole host of balance issues related to weapon types, skills, and mods. All of these have been meticulously addressed and overhauled in GMDX + vRSD. SS2's gun combat is rather more basic, but gets the job done with simulated projectiles for everything (even bullets), functional recoil, punchy sound effects tied to ammo type and firing mode, and hit sounds and health bars that clearly indicate the player's shot connecting. There are balance problems and the weapon modding system is super boring, but SS2's combat has more solid foundations for a first person shooter even if it's less ambitious in the firearms department.

[Don't get me wrong, DX is still a fantastic game, but as a sum of its parts, mostly down to the level design and the freedom afforded by the systems]
 
Last edited:
Joined
Aug 27, 2021
Messages
698
Complaining about the combat in System Shock 2 is like complaining about the combat in Ultima Underworld. It's there to expend your resources and make you grapple with the game's RPG mechanics, not necessarily to be an action-packed test of reflexes. It's an especially odd complaint for SS2 since it's the Looking Glass game with the best action combat (sole exception being Strike Force Centauri).

Grenades are cool in SS1 but that game's combat is mostly corner-peeking (which is just fine for that game, of course). Thief's combat is surprisingly complex but intentionally bullshit to dissuade you from using it as a solution. Deus Ex's combat is arguably on the same level as SS2's, give or take - RoSoDude and Ash may take issue with that claim, but I haven't played GMDX yet.
The only part of the game where you can lose is combat. The combat is a large percentage of the game. The RPG elements are there to make you more effective at combat, give you more supplies for combat, or help you avoid combat.

The combat is the first thing to talk about with SS2.

Dues Ex had locational hitboxes, a headshot did more damage than a body shot. That alone changes the tactical landscape.

It's funny, the biggest defenders of all the flaws of the classics seem like they never even played the games.
 

antimeridian

Learned
Patron
Joined
May 18, 2021
Messages
275
Codex Year of the Donut
Just beat this (for the first time!) on impossible difficulty. Died a lot and loved it. This game deserves its classic status.

-Unparalleled atmosphere and sound design.
-Respawning enemies are great (and certainly blown out of proportion by whiners).
-Weapon degradation is hilarious on impossible, but the game would really lose something without it.
-Anyone who complains about the soundtrack (or turns it off) is retarded.
-Totally imbalanced builds, with some being complete dead-ends (this isn't a negative). Great potential for challenge runs.
-Great itemization. Combat is simplistic but satisfying, and gets the balance between stats vs. player skill better than almost any other FPS/RPG.
-I really like the graphics, given the constraints of the time.

Engineering and Hydroponics were probably the toughest parts, started feeling more powerful after that. The last couple areas throw a lot of resources at you. I had heard enough about the game that I knew I'd be best off with hacking + standard weapons, but I also used the shard a lot near the end. Time for a psionics run next...
 

wishbonetail

Learned
Joined
Oct 18, 2021
Messages
671
Finished my first run of SS1 and i must say, became a fan. It is quite unique as a puzzle-action-dungeoncrawler, really twisting your brain in a knots, and now I'm reluctant to start SS2 in fear of it to be much more mainstreamed/simplified. As i understand, SS2 introdoced some rpg mechanics, which is fine, but what about level design? Is it worthy of its predecessor?
 

ShaggyMoose

Savant
Joined
Aug 26, 2017
Messages
593
Location
Australia
Even on my first SS2 playthrough I managed to finish the game without undue difficulty. Apart from the fact that it encourages a certain skillset, it really isn't a hugely difficult game. If you wanted to make all skillsets equally viable, then that certainly requires a mod or a remaster.
 
Joined
Aug 27, 2021
Messages
698
SS2 is easy as a soldier, 6 guns skill and you can use the "assault rifle" that fires pistol bullets.
Hacker stuff is good for some extra loot and what not, but not critical.
Psi stuff isn't necessarily so important. It can be fun to play around with but you can also just skip it for a first playthrough.

On normal difficulty the game generally gives you enough resources that you don't have to worry about them. On hard random drops from killed enemies are reduced a lot.

Don't forget about using specialized ammo where appropriate, it makes a huge difference.
 

Raskens

Learned
Patron
Joined
May 7, 2020
Messages
118
SS2 level design is way more linear and the information you receive where to go is also more explicit (if I remember correctly) in comparison to SS1. The first game I got lost and had to spend some time to figure out where to go and what to do, not so much of that in SS2.
 

antimeridian

Learned
Patron
Joined
May 18, 2021
Messages
275
Codex Year of the Donut
I found hacking indispensable on impossible, as it let me deal with a lot of turrets that I would have had to expend ammo on otherwise. Although looking back, I probably could have maneuvered around a lot of them with a few points in agility, maybe a speed booster at times. Hacking also helped with looting locked crates since random drops were rare. I'm experimenting with an high agility build now, and I love that the game lets you build a speedy bastard who can just run past a lot of the combat. The game definitely rewards you for knowing when not to fight, but leaves it to you to figure it out.

Don't get me wrong, the game is great, but playing without the soundtrack is much more atmospheric and improves the horror element.

I kinda get it, but I really preferred having the music on. The ambient tracks thickened up the game's atmosphere considerably, but the occasional pounding techno elevates the overall pacing. Always gave me a nice adrenaline rush.
 

A horse of course

Guest
The respawning seriously bothered me when I first played through it too. I would've preferred fewer but far deadlier enemies and a more sophisticated stealth/evasion system, so that only combat purists would go out of their way to attack most enemies head-on with their best weapons and resources, whilst tech/hackers and so forth would feel compelled to either use the ship's defences (actually make turrets and security cameras worth bothering with) or open alternative routes via air ducts etc. without going so far as to make it "Thief in space" (which would be a good game in its own right!). And there should always be some element of avoidance, even for combat builds, such as staying out of the way of heavy combat droids (who were laughably weak in the game) until they felt confident they had enough ammo/grenades/healing items to fight them.

Another half-way solution would've been to actually implement a system that determined where most of the respawns were originating from - such as heavy bulkhead doors between sectors or breaches in the ship's walls - and give the player a chance to block some of these routes, expanding on the cyborg/hopper manufacturing plants in SS1.

As it was, the respawning felt more irritating than tension-inducing. There are parts of the game where it's particularly lazily hidden, such as in an area of the cargo bays where you can stand at a crossroads and wait for a melee thug and an etiquette droid to alternately spawn exactly every 40 seconds or so, in precisely the same spots and in the same order, forever.

shut up fag
 

RoSoDude

Arcane
Joined
Oct 1, 2016
Messages
730
My System Shock 2 mod version 2.00 is finally released after a long beta period of almost 2 years



New features include overhauled modification system for weapons and armors allowing you to customize your gear on the fly, heavily reworked psi disciplines with rearranged unlock tiers and expanded overload mechanics, hacking minigame rebuilt from scratch to subtract nanites per node click, new level design features such as power cells to open loot caches and routes, new secrets, and many new radiation hazards.
 

Mauman

Learned
Joined
Jun 30, 2021
Messages
935
Well fuck me....I was just thinking of reinstalling this yesterday.

I wonder if your mod will make energy weapons a good all the way game choice this time? Always annoyed me how they became border useless when dealing with the many. And the problem with worm weapons was the lack of accessibility to them and ammo.

I mean, I can always go assault rifle again if needed.
 

Piotrovitz

Savant
Joined
Dec 21, 2017
Messages
805
Location
Paris, Texas
Holy hell, this looks great, think it's time for a rerun.

How's the weapon rebalancing been done?
Energy weaps look/feel so awesome (rapier, EMP rifle), but are 99% useless and once you pick assault rifle it's game over.
 

RoSoDude

Arcane
Joined
Oct 1, 2016
Messages
730
It's less that I buffed Energy weapons (I did, mostly the EMP Rifle in laying waste to bots and cyborgs), but moreso that the Standard weapons are much less dominant. The Assault Rifle has a smaller magazine, longer reload time, automatic firing mode locked behind modification and special ammo only deals x2 damage (vanilla x4 for reference). What they've maintained in versatility, they've lost in potency and other weapons classes have a chance to shine. Heavy weapon progression is a lot more robust now and Exotic weapons don't degrade, so they have some advantages that Standard lacks.

Of course, you're going to want to dip into a few different specializations when you gear up to take on the Body of the Many, that's just the name of the game. On the other hand, Energy builds will have a significant advantage in the Rickenbacker and against the overhauled final boss.
 

RoSoDude

Arcane
Joined
Oct 1, 2016
Messages
730
Can you create a mod page on moddb.com?
I could I suppose, though the entire SS2 mod community is on systemshock.org for better or for worse. Still might get some more eyes on the mod, and the fact that it's only a 234 KB download (you read that right, NewDark engine is out of this world) means that ModDB's slow ass servers aren't an obstacle.
 

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