Should stats be static?

[Phelot]

How do you think stats should advance? Should they advance at all or should they be more "real world" were what abilities you're born with are the ones you have for the rest of your life? CHOOSE!!!

1. Stats should be static and there should be no way to increase them.

2. Stats should be static and no way to increase them permanently, but temporarily is OK. (IWD, enchanted weapons)

3. Stats should be static, but there should be rare magics that can increase them (Baldur's Gate's tomes)

4. Stats should be increased every level or every few levels. (Fallout, Arcanum, TOEE)

Personally, I don't really mind any of the above systems, but for the sake of the poll, I didn't put an option like that in so we'd have to choose. I would say ideally "2" is my choice. I don't mind enchanted weapons, but it seems like your character is cheapened when you are allowed to continually increase their stats. It tends to lead to games were you start off horrible, but are God like by the end.

 

[Eyeball]

I'd go for the "Jagged Alliance model", personally, where stats increase based on the amount of work tasks you do requiring that stat. Run a lot, stamina increases, lift heavy shit, strength increases, dodge arrows and bullets, dexterity increases. Far more dynamic than the "You gain 3 XP, levelup, you now feel stronger" business.

Of course, this opens up a lot of possibilities for people abusing the system to simply grind strength points or whatever by picking up rocks and running in circles for hours, but whatever - you want to grind meaningless stats, play an MMO, that's what they're for.

 

[spectre]

Wrong forum, luv.

I was always partial to the Darklands system - static stats with minor non-permanent enchancement possible

I am not totally opposed to increasing stats, It should be possible, but should require extreme dedicaton.
However, the most important thing is the actual stat score needs to be meaningful. This means that both low and high score need to be acknowledged by the game world, and furthermore, there need to be significant, non-cosmetic differences between stat scores of say, 11 and 12 (if the scale is 1 to 20)

 

[dr. one]

i don´t really mind any of the above systems either.
each can be implemented well, each can be implemented badly.
depends on how it interacts with skill system and what kind of place these two together have in combat/interaction systems, how they´re connected with item system, whether the game is party-based or not. some harmony with the in-game reality doesn´t hurt either.

i probably prefer the 4., it usually somewhat lacks on the "realism" front, but also delivers more in the, huh, fun department, at least to me because i enjoy being periodically challenged with the decision where to go with my char(s) next.
verisimilitude-wise, player shouldn´t be able to make a 5x stronger character during the course of the game, but 5x better in sword fighting is quite ok.

i like the system in Wizardry 8, for example.

 

[Ancient]

combination of 2 , 3 , 4 is best for me

Level stats every or every few levels , having weapons that give some bonuses , and magic items that can boost ur stats a bit.

Thought nr.1 nr.3 and nr.2 are most logical as getting from 10 strength to 100 from training
in matters of days or months is kind a idiotic even for fictional world.

 

[Jaesun]

I'd go for the "Jagged Alliance model", personally, where stats increase based on the amount of work tasks you do requiring that stat. Run a lot, stamina increases, lift heavy shit, strength increases, dodge arrows and bullets, dexterity increases. Far more dynamic than the "You gain 3 XP, levelup, you now feel stronger" business.

Of course, this opens up a lot of possibilities for people abusing the system to simply grind strength points or whatever by picking up rocks and running in circles for hours, but whatever - you want to grind meaningless stats, play an MMO, that's what they're for.

I always liked JA stat increases as well.

 

[mondblut]

How many times it has to be repeated that Prelude to Darkness nailed it perfectly?

You have some skill tied to str and dex. When skill reaches 30, you get +1 to str. When skill reaches 50, you get +2 to dex. Some other skill is tied to dex and int, and some third is double int, etc. By practicing heavily a skill of your choice, you eventually achieve an increase in primary attributes the skill depends on. Just like in life, huh?

JA2 = stupid grinding, just like any use-based system with unlimited opportunities for skill application.

 

[Carlos' Bitch1]

How many times it has to be repeated that Prelude to Darkness nailed it perfectly?

You have some skill tied to str and dex. When skill reaches 30, you get +1 to str. When skill reaches 50, you get +2 to dex. Some other skill is tied to dex and int, and some third is double int, etc. By practicing heavily a skill of your choice, you eventually achieve an increase in primary attributes the skill depends on. Just like in life, huh?

JA2 = stupid grinding, just like any use-based system with unlimited opportunities for skill application.

In this case, do you believe that any stats that are never, or hardly used should downgrade with time like real life?

 

[Phelot]

Well, in real life there is a max that any one individual can achieve. There are some weightlifters that just can't get past a certain weight, and some people that reach an intelligence that they simply cannot surpass. Sure, there is conditioning like a man at strength 11 increasing it to his individual max of 14 by way of hard work, but he cannot increase it past 14 while another man might be able to.

That might be interesting to see, but would probably just end up being tedious in game.

EDIT

JA2 = stupid grinding, just like any use-based system with unlimited opportunities for skill application.

If you actually grind which I never have in JA2 since you're very likely to be paying for a merc to waste your money and time, will likely be interrupted by enemies, and it increases so slowly it's practically useless to try and increase stats.

I actually like that system though. At the end of a game, if you check your merc history you can see that they do get better in a stat. That's more satisfying knowing that actual use of the skills, not just repetitive grinding, increased it and it's not overboard.

TBH, most of the increases, except for marksmanship, was pretty negligible though.

 

[zeitgeist]

I actually like that system though. At the end of a game, if you check your merc history you can see that they do get better in a stat. That's more satisfying knowing that actual use of the skills, not just repetitive grinding, increased it and it's not overboard.

TBH, most of the increases, except for marksmanship, was pretty negligible though.

There's something very compelling about the JA2 system, because all these stats ultimately don't matter that much, but they're still there, and you still notice them from time to time, and you can still differentiate your mercs by them (when you need to use the right person for a specific job or squad position). They're just more in the background rather than being the main focus like they might be in a traditional cRPG.

Apart from experimentation purposes, I've never heard of anyone actually grinding stats during the normal playthrough of the game, the way you'd grind them in Bethesda games for example. How it all works out is that if you have a merc who's naturally very good at something, you just train them a bit to get excellent at that thing, or if you have a merc who's naturally horrible at something, you train them a bit until they're sort of decent. If you have a character who lifts weights all the time in his spare time, they'll become stronger and stronger, if you have a character with extremely poor marksmanship, you'll send them off to training so that they can at least shoot in the general direction of the enemy etc. - training and their daily tasks mesh together and it all seems to make perfect sense.

 

[Zeus]

How do you think stats should advance? Should they advance at all or should they be more "real world" were what abilities you're born with are the ones you have for the rest of your life?

I seriously doubt anyone is born with 18 strength.

There are stories of martial artists who were scrawny teens that got their asses kicked, until they finally snapped and dedicated the rest of their lives to training and lifting weights.

Likewise, it's also possible to go from a strong, fit highschool football champion to a fat slob with a poor cardiovascular system.

Point is, stats should be flexible.

 

[Phelot]

How do you think stats should advance? Should they advance at all or should they be more "real world" were what abilities you're born with are the ones you have for the rest of your life?

I seriously doubt anyone is born with 18 strength.

There are stories of martial artists who were scrawny teens that got their asses kicked, until they finally snapped and dedicated the rest of their lives to training and lifting weights.

Likewise, it's also possible to go from a strong, fit highschool football champion to a fat slob with a poor cardiovascular system.

Point is, stats should be flexible.

Yeah but scrawny teens aren't fully developed. Like I said in my previous posts, there is a limit that each individual can reach.

I thought 18 strength is the general "max" for humans and anything above that is considered inhuman or even God like. Isn't 25 the ultimate max in DnD or is it different now?

 

[Zeus]

Yeah but scrawny teens aren't fully developed.

Right, but isn't the point of an RPG that your character isn't fully developed? EXP, levels, it's all about advancement, not some arbitrary physical high point that you pick at the start of your adventure and never changes.

 

[Phelot]

Yeah but scrawny teens aren't fully developed.

Right, but isn't the point of an RPG that your character isn't fully developed? EXP, levels, it's all about advancement, not some arbitrary physical high point that you pick at the start of your adventure and never changes.

I don't know of many RPGs that start off as a child and then advance to an adult. It's assumed that you're an adult in most games, no? So really the only thing arbitrary is when there's a law saying when you level up you get a stat point to spend.

And keep in mind, I'm talking about the base stats like strength, dexterity. Thing's that are innate.

 

[King Crispy]

Certain stats should be easier to increase while others should be much harder or impossible to be.

Strength, for example, should be increasable through training (level up), up to a maximum per gender and race.

Intelligence should "cost" twice as much or more per race but with no theoretical cap.

Wisdom should increase naturally with the ability to be trained higher, max depending on intelligence.

Dexterity should be harder to develop, only improvable by a few points.

Constitution should be increasable in the same way strength is.

Charisma should always be static other than temporarily alterable by magical means (all other stats should be alterable by magic as well).

 

[Xor]

Any of those systems could be good if done properly. I don't think you can really say any one is "better" than the others.

 

[gothfox]

Should they advance at all or should they be more "real world" were what abilities you're born with are the ones you have for the rest of your life?

If real world worked like that, you'd be unable to walk, speak and generally take care of yourself.

 

[Phelot]

Should they advance at all or should they be more "real world" were what abilities you're born with are the ones you have for the rest of your life?

If real world worked like that, you'd be unable to walk, speak and generally take care of yourself.

You start most games as an adult, no? So unless you start the game as a little kid then it doesn't realistically make sense to continuously increase your attributes especially since most games take place in a matter of months at most.

Like I said in previous posts: each individual has their limits. There is a cap to just about everything that they can do. Look at professional sports, if it was like in video games then intense training would magically make anybody ready for the big leagues. That's not how it works.

 

[Awor Szurkrarz]

ADOM.

 

[Sick Bum]

Things are more interesting if there's at least some chance to increase stats. In JA2 you couldn't really grind wisdom out and even upping the other stats was a slow process so it was not game ruining but for games where a small stat difference matter getting an increase every 4 levels like newer dnd editions is pretty nice.

 

[Zeus]

It's assumed that you're an adult in most games, no? So really the only thing arbitrary is when there's a law saying when you level up you get a stat point to spend.

And keep in mind, I'm talking about the base stats like strength, dexterity. Thing's that are innate.

Right, but the highschool football star was a legal adult, then he went all lumpy and soft and his STR and DEX plummeted.

Strength, dexterity, these are things that can be trained and wildly improved even in our mundane world. They're not set in stone the day you're old enough to vote and choose a career.

If INT is learning ability and WIS is common sense (it depends on the rules set, but for the sake of argument we'll call it that), both of those things can improve later in life. It's possible to start out a self-absorbed little twit and still snap out of it and get some empathy and common sense.

Charisma can improve well into your adulthood, too. Once the self-absorbed little twit stops being some a prick, his personality and leadership will go through the roof. There's also physical charm: A late bloomer who looked geeky and awkward at 19 or 20, but by the time she turned 26 or 27 she's, in the words of Fat Bastard, DEAD SEXAY.

My point is, I find it silly to pick a random point in a character's life and decide that they can never get stronger, smarter, more flexible or charming, without resorting to magic.

 

[Misterhamper]

Should they advance at all or should they be more "real world" were what abilities you're born with are the ones you have for the rest of your life?

If real world worked like that, you'd be unable to walk, speak and generally take care of yourself.

You start most games as an adult, no? So unless you start the game as a little kid then it doesn't realistically make sense to continuously increase your attributes especially since most games take place in a matter of months at most.

Like I said in previous posts: each individual has their limits. There is a cap to just about everything that they can do. Look at professional sports, if it was like in video games then intense training would magically make anybody ready for the big leagues. That's not how it works.

Most people will be able to "improve their real-life stats" by a larger percentage than in most RPG's.
If you start at fx 5 STR and max is 10 STR, that will only be double of your original strenght-level. In real life, through hard and proper training for years, most untrained people would be able to improve their strength almost 4 times. I went from a 30 kilo bench press to a 200 kilo bench press. Not exactly "static stats".
The same goes for agility, endurance etc.
And I would guess intelligence would be able to be improved even more than physical traits.

 

[Sick Bum]

It's assumed that you're an adult in most games, no? So really the only thing arbitrary is when there's a law saying when you level up you get a stat point to spend.

And keep in mind, I'm talking about the base stats like strength, dexterity. Thing's that are innate.

Right, but the highschool football star was a legal adult, then he went all lumpy and soft and his STR and DEX plummeted.

Strength, dexterity, these are things that can be trained and wildly improved even in our mundane world. They're not set in stone the day you're old enough to vote and choose a career.

Sort of, but not really. If you run a 6.0 forty you will probably never do better than a 5.5 forty no matter how much you train. You can become good at juggling but you can never improve your base reflexes, either. Slow muscle can never become twitch muscle. For brain it is harder to quantify but while you know more as you get older and recognize certain patterns quicker I imagine the same principle applies that some people pick them up much faster than others throughout their life.

 

[Eyeball]

JA2 = stupid grinding, just like any use-based system with unlimited opportunities for skill application.

Like I said, if you WANTED to, you CAN "grind" skills in JA2 - up your dex and agility by knifing crows, punching cows until they die, loading up your men with heavy shit and walk them in circles until they pass out from exhaustion for upping their strength and endurance, but the point is that only an extremely sad kind of powergamer would do so in a game like Jagged Alliance where proper use of equipment and ambush tactics were far more important to your success than simply having that extra +3 in dicksucking you gained from rigourous practice in the San Mona brothel.

What the JA2 system did was give you an incentive to involve your whole team of mercenaries in every gunfight, even the medic and repair guys with shitty shooting skills - just let them get a few shots off or maybe a kill or two in every fight and you'll see their marksmanship skills rise to the level where by the end of the game they can actually contribute to blowing away bad guys instead of simply being healwhores and repairbitches sitting on the back lines constantly. It promotes utilising your entire team, and is therefore an excellent way of implementing RPG "level-up" elements, IMHO.

 

[mondblut]

Like I said, if you WANTED to, you CAN "grind" skills in JA2

Everybody I knew, did so from the first minute of the game and until their mouse broke.

only an extremely sad kind of powergamer would do so in a game like Jagged Alliance

Yeah, you could be an even more extremely sad kind of larper and bypass that stage.

JA2 = TES as far as character development is concerned. Ever heard of spending hours bashing tank with a crowbar, and setting-disarming mines? Lucky you.