Should stats be static?

[Phelot]

@ Misterhamper and Zeus

I agree, but again I assume that a system like DnD, or more specifically, let's say BG that your PC is "at his peak" when you roll for attributes. That is, your 15 strength is assumed to be your top physical condition. And besides, my example of someone going from 11 to 14 is a pretty significant jump in that system... well... sort of but still.

 

[Misterhamper]

@ Misterhamper and Zeus

I agree, but again I assume that a system like DnD, or more specifically, let's say BG that your PC is "at his peak" when you roll for attributes. That is, your 15 strength is assumed to be your top physical condition. And besides, my example of someone going from 11 to 14 is a pretty significant jump in that system... well... sort of but still.

I haven't played much DnD, but I assume you in almost all RPG's start as a mere adventurer, not-that-good warrior, or just-outta-school mage. Hence they will be, according to real life, above average, but still with a lot of room for improving.

 

[Awor Szurkrarz]

Like I said, if you WANTED to, you CAN "grind" skills in JA2

Everybody I knew, did so from the first minute of the game and until their mouse broke.

only an extremely sad kind of powergamer would do so in a game like Jagged Alliance

Yeah, you could be an even more extremely sad kind of larper and bypass that stage.

JA2 = TES as far as character development is concerned. Ever heard of spending hours bashing tank with a crowbar, and setting-disarming mines? Lucky you.

 

[MasterSmithFandango]

I've seriously never done anything of the kind playing JA2, or even thought about doing it. The most extreme "grinding" I ever did was having someone with a lower medical skill do the patching up instead of my main doctor... I've heard of the knifing crows and whatnot, but unless you're going for a min-max type of game, I don't even know why someone would want to do that. JA2's combat is too fun to ignore by punching cows.

 

[mondblut]

unless you're going for a min-max type of game...

Are you by any chance implying there is any other type?

Fucking larper.

 

[Phelot]

Like I said, if you WANTED to, you CAN "grind" skills in JA2

Everybody I knew, did so from the first minute of the game and until their mouse broke.

only an extremely sad kind of powergamer would do so in a game like Jagged Alliance

Yeah, you could be an even more extremely sad kind of larper and bypass that stage.

JA2 = TES as far as character development is concerned. Ever heard of spending hours bashing tank with a crowbar, and setting-disarming mines? Lucky you.

I don't follow what grinding you're talking about. You mean killing enemies and such? I wouldn't call that grinding in JA2 considering every encounter has a purpose rather then a bunch of enemies waiting around to be killed. You're either attacking a town/enemy patrol or defending against one.

And who trains their mercs unlesss they're not doing anything else? I never have. I always start with mercs that are at least decent in marksmanship and they improve as they go on. Same goes for medic and mechanic. I guess there's people out there that hire someone horrible at mechanics and then train them the entire game in it, but why?

ALso, no I've never heard of bashing a tank with a crowbar in JA2. Are you trying to mimic Skyway?

I haven't played much DnD, but I assume you in almost all RPG's start as a mere adventurer, not-that-good warrior, or just-outta-school mage. Hence they will be, according to real life, above average, but still with a lot of room for improving.

Well, in older DnD (and it's been a LOOOOOONG time since I've even glanced at a rulebook) you rolled your attributes and that was that. So you became more skilled as you went on. Again, I assume a 15 strength means that's your characters peak level. That is, they're at their top form already so no need to have your adventurer do their daily crunches :D

 

[mondblut]

I don't follow what grinding you're talking about. You mean killing enemies and such?

No, I mean first driving the team around the mountains overloaded, then making them set and disarm landmines for hours, then crawling back and forth in the view of an enemy, then shooting one another and healing them, this kind of thing. Just like jumping everywhere in TES, except even more retarded. Ingame time passes little while in tactical mode, yay for real life boot camp.

ALso, no I've never heard of bashing a tank with a crowbar in JA2.

Westerners cannot into powergaming, I guess. Next time you'll say you didn't knew using a shittiest weapon possible is a most efficient way to build up a weaponskill in TES.

 

[Phelot]

I don't follow what grinding you're talking about. You mean killing enemies and such?

No, I mean first driving the team around the mountains overloaded, then making them set and disarm landmines for hours, then crawling back and forth in the view of an enemy, then shooting one another and healing them, this kind of thing. Just like jumping everywhere in TES, except even more retarded. Ingame time passes little while in tactical mode, yay for real life boot camp.

It may be the only way to advance in TES, but it's not in JA2 and in fact it's a waste of time. Each merc doesn't need to be good at every skill and it's stupid trying to make them do so since that's not how the game was ever intended. TES, yeah it makes sense to jump around all over the place, it's stupid but still makes sense.

Westerners cannot into powergaming, I guess. Next time you'll say you didn't knew using a shittiest weapon possible is a most efficient way to build up a weaponskill in TES.

Oh yeah, I forgot you don't play games for fun but to track stats and numbers.

 

[mondblut]

It may be the only way to advance in TES, but it's not in JA2 and in fact it's a waste of time.

Pray tell, which is the other <s>honour</s> way to advance in JA2 which TES lacks.

In TES, you advance in skills by using them.

In JA2, you advance in skills by using them.

Case closed.

Each merc doesn't need to be good at every skill

If you can make them universal killing machines, why the hell not? The game is literally begging for it on its knees.

Oh yeah, I forgot you don't play games for fun but to track stats and numbers.

Are you implying there is a different kind of fun in gaming than tracking stats and numbers? Never discovered any other since I reached puberty.

 

[PorkaMorka]

unless you're going for a min-max type of game...

Are you by any chance implying there is any other type?

Fucking larper.

Don't be silly.

It's one thing to play to win, for example picking mercs with good stats for their cost and using good weapons.

It's another to introduce grinding into a game where it is unnecessary.

By grinding excessively you not only waste hours of your precious time on unfun activities, you also risk breaking the difficulty curve of the game and make it too easy, thus lowering the challenge and the fun for yourself.

 

[mondblut]

My fun is in watching little numbers go up.

If the outcome is that my squad breezes through the opposition, blowing up hundreds without taking a scratch, that's even better, a time well invested in the beginning phase.

 

[Phelot]

Pray tell, which is the other <s>honour</s> way to advance in JA2 which TES lacks.

In TES, you advance in skills by using them.

In JA2, you advance in skills by using them.

Case closed.

Not really. TES you have to advance in order to reach new areas. In JA2, you need equipment and equipment alone. You can assemble a sufficient team right from the beginning team with the initial skills to sweep the entire game. The only thing that is holding them back is equipment.

If you can make them universal killing machines, why the hell not? The game is literally begging for it on its knees.

Better weapons make them universal killing machines.

Are you implying there is a different kind of fun in gaming than tracking stats and numbers? Never discovered any other since I reached puberty.

Are you an accountant by chance?

 

[mondblut]

Not really. TES you have to advance in order to reach new areas.

No, you don't. Level scaling FTW

In JA2, you need equipment and equipment alone. You can assemble a sufficient team right from the beginning team with the initial skills to sweep the entire game. The only thing that is holding them back is equipment.

Just as I said, westerners cannot into powergaming. Know what happens when you hit an enemy with a crowbar? He drops his weapon. Yes, that weapon which 9 out of 10 times would magically disappear if you kill him outright. Then you pick that weapon up.

Anyway, doing most if not all of JA2 with entry level silenced weapons at nighttime is not unheard of, and is in fact a perfectly valid strategy. You don't need a fn fal at night, a silenced mac-10 Shadow (or somebody else from his weight category) starts with works just fine.

Better weapons make them universal killing machines.

A good assault rifle shooting across half the level is of little use for somebody who can't hit the side of a wall from point blank range.

Are you an accountant by chance?

If I were, *then* that wouldn't be fun at all. If I were, I'd probably weep over PST and FF7 romances and larp my ass off.

 

[Phelot]

Not really. TES you have to advance in order to reach new areas.

No, you don't. Level scaling FTW

In JA2, you need equipment and equipment alone. You can assemble a sufficient team right from the beginning team with the initial skills to sweep the entire game. The only thing that is holding them back is equipment.

Just as I said, westerners cannot into powergaming. Know what happens when you hit an enemy with a crowbar? He drops his weapon. Yes, that weapon which 9 out of 10 times would magically disappear if you kill him outright. Then you pick that weapon up.

Anyway, doing most if not all of JA2 with entry level silenced weapons at nighttime is not unheard of, and is in fact a perfectly valid strategy. You don't need a fn fal at night, a silenced mac-10 Shadow (or somebody else from his weight category) starts with works just fine.

Better weapons make them universal killing machines.

A good assault rifle shooting across half the level is of little use for somebody who can't hit the side of a wall from point blank range.

Are you an accountant by chance?

If I were, *then* that wouldn't be fun at all. If I were, I'd probably weep over PST and FF7 romances and larp my ass off.

Ahhh the legendary Mondblut. I admire your purity.

Perhaps you're right and this really is a east/west divide. I suppose I'm some naive and brash Western explorer seeking out you the wise Eastern monk sitting on top of a mountain?

Regardless

 

[dermatologist]

i think an important question here is: what do these stats affect?

if they're the primary determiner of skills, then you'd likely need a system where you can increase them on level up or some such.

if, however, they're minor contributors to skills, then you can afford to make them much more static.

i basically see stats (well, the entire character sheet, really) as a slice in time of your character at that "era", where era is loosely defined as a segment of your character's adventure. so unless the adventure lasts several years it's tough for me to see substantial increases in stats being appropriate.

the alternative is that your stats represent some hard cap to your skills, which i think is kinda cool. the argument here is that you may have the strength of a giant, but you're just a raw recruit and have some difficulty harnessing the great phallic sword of criticals +5. alternatively, you might be a very trained soldier, but your physical limits (here, strength) essentially prevent you from using swords in a more effective manner unless you find some magical enhancements. a simple example, mind you, but i always thought it was a good setup.

i'm not sure i agree a person can't be more charismatic, crispy. what about the half-orc tribal warrior who suddenly starts showering, dressing appropriately, etc.? he'll most certainly always have a lower CHA ceiling than a charming babe, but i think he can increase it.

again, though, perhaps his low base CHA indicates some scarring and bodily odor, and he's just increasing some CHA-oriented skill (social intelligence?) by better fitting in with a society that appreciates these things. since his base CHA is much less than the lady mentioned above, his social intelligence skill will hit a maximum at a much lower level than the babe, and probably start much lower, too. that's where the capped system is cool, imo.

 

[Mangoose]

It all depends on the context, i.e. the rest of the mechanics of the game system.

 

[Reject_666_6]

First of all, I think you misplaced Fallout on your poll there. In Fallout, the stats you pick at the beginning of the game are pretty much set in stone - you can't add any points to them no matter how many times you level up. In the other games you put in that category, e.g. Arcanum, NWN, DA:O, you can raise states every level, so it's a completely different system from Fallout. Fallout 3 does fit in here, though.

Secondly, I would choose the Fallout system, which is kind of a combination of 1 and 2. You can't raise them by level-up, and very very few items can raise them temporarily (In Fallout, it was only powered armor and those special sunglasses). Also the drugs you can find raise one stat for a short amount of time, but come with penalties like addiction, temporary stat loss, rarity, etc.

You have to take into account the differences between a stat and a skill, and how it would be logical to raise them. STR, for example could be easily raised in real life by anyone, but to gain any significant amount, say to get from 7 STR to 8, would take at least a month of working out. This is also time spent not doing anything else, so if you can afford to spend a month or more doing absolutely nothing then you've got a p. crappy RPG on your hands. Skills, on the other hand are a lot easier to train. You can get much better at science in a couple of hours if you cram books. You get better at lockpicking if you practice on something for a couple of minutes every day, or at speech if you practice while walking or something. My point is that if you want character growth, skills are what you need. Stats are what make characters unique; if you allow them to be raised then you wind up a master at everything like in Bethesda's games.

tl;dr
Fallout did it best.

 

[Azrael the cat]

Depends on whether there is an attached skill system and how it functions. Without an attached skill system, static stats leave little room for character growth. But if you do have attached skills, and those skills can be increased, then keep the stats constant. Increasing both skills and stats is unnecessary complexity and undermines the difference between them.

 

[Norfleet]

Of course, this opens up a lot of possibilities for people abusing the system to simply grind strength points or whatever by picking up rocks and running in circles for hours

But people do that in REAL LIFE, too! Are you saying you've never run around in circles for hours with a backpack full of rocks just to increase your strength score?

 

[laclongquan]

Quoting the incredible inefficient way of training.

Dog! The proper way is not to hit them with a crowbar. The proper way is to hit them with a quickest/easiest attack. Get the 1st blood mark of the hunt, ya know. Then hit them with fist. Crowbar got an incredible disadvantage going for it is that if you are abit too strong you can kill him outright, or kill him too quick .We need the mark to survive for several rounds. Barefist boxing all the way, yo! Then you rob him all the weapons he's holding by using the grabbing hand icon. That will train Str and Dex in one single grabbing move. After that, he can be the proper punchingbag with nothing left behind.

As for Strength training for gods, you must have many MANY gears. Load the boy or girl with 1000% overloaded or more, then command him in MAP menu to move to other sector. Cancel that move: Behold the 10 point increase of Strength. The idiot driving icecream truck got trained this way and become a valued member of the mercenary force.

Anyway, why do we play this way you ask? Well, killing them with guns, grenades, and proper tactics like ambush, counter-ambush, flanking, counter-flanking... is too easy. We gotta have our amusement, you know. ANd if by kickboxing some poor sods we harvest 300% number of gears from one battle, it just is another profitable strategy.

 

[Sceptic]

Not really. TES you have to advance in order to reach new areas.

No, you don't. Level scaling FTW

TES = Oblivion now? really mondblut? I would expect this from popamole consoletard newfags, but not from you.

 

[Naked Ninja]

I can see arguments for both sides.

IRL, stats are trainable. Strength, certainly, and agility/co-ordination/speed. Also endurance.

Perception...while you can't make your eyes or ears better, you can train yourself to notice details/pay attention, which will effectively make you 'more perceptive'.

Working intelligence I definitely think is increased by training your brain. Training your focus and memory would allow you to perform better, academically.

Charisma is a tough one, but I have come to realise that you can practice social skills. I was fairly shy and introverted as a kid, I've practiced and am much better in social situations. But I had to work at it.

So yeah, I believe stats can be trained. That being said, I can see a case for not allowing stat alteration if you feel your game is going to be taking place over the short term. Stat changes IRL tend to take years of training them, so it's logical to say the stats you start with in the game are those you have to use for the entirety of the storyline.

But you could make the same argument for learned skills, couldn't you? So I generally take the stance that RPGs should allow both stat and skill training, just under a more accelerated timeframe than is realistic, for the purposes of enjoyment.

 

[mondblut]

I suppose I'm some naive and brash Western explorer seeking out you the wise Eastern monk sitting on top of a mountain?

Make it "east european", that's where all scholars of minmaxing reside.

 

[mondblut]

TES = Oblivion now? really mondblut? I would expect this from popamole consoletard newfags, but not from you.

TES had level scaling since day 1. In Arena, you travel all over Tamriel, enter any random non-story dungeon, and meet the same fighters and goblins. In Daggerfall, I didn't even seen half the monsters, since I trained to level 31 without ever leaving the fighters guild, and from then on the game was populated exclusively by liches, daedralords and humanoids in daedric from head to toe. In Morrowind, past the first 10 or so levels when you can survive an occasional golden saint or deformed dagoth ur cultist, there is no inaccessible area for you.

 

[Serious_Business]

My fun is in watching little numbers go up.

Well all know you're an autistic tard, you've made your case well enough

This shit about JA2 is nonsense, I never goddamn grinded a stat in all my playthroughs. It's not like TES because - you get mercs that already have high stats so you don't need to bother levelling up (only manage your finances) - and also your stats can increase more or less naturally - plus you can train your stats automatically through the strategy map (no one does that but fuck it). JA2 isn't really a rpg in my book though. Would you really play it to watch your stats go up? I mean, I'm not going to give you a storyfag argument here because I know you're illiterate - but really, do you play this shit for the gameplay or not? You know, them turn based tactical team based games? I wouldn't say JA2 is like Might and Magic or some shit, where you just click through thousands of enemies and level up. The point of the game is to get through the challenges not to increase your powaaaahhh