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Decline Shooters used to be better (but not as much better as we think?)

DefJam101

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Now is a good time to ask why so many people hate Quake 2 because I think it's a pretty quality singleplayer game

your answer may not include the following two reasons, even though they are sort of bad things, because i've heard them a thousand times:
- the movement is different
- there are a lot of grey walls

IDK if it's really fair to compare quake and unreal though cause the games have completely different pacing and style. unreal for instance struck me as clear attempt to make an "adventure" fps where you actually felt like you were stranded on a weird planet full of weird alien shit
 

shihonage

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DraQ has written exhaustive essays on the subject as to why he hates Quake 2. I'm sure he'll point them out. I disagree with pretty much everything he says, though, as Quake 2 was one of the best co-op campaign experiences I had, next to Duke3D: Atomic Edition.
 

Surf Solar

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Shooters are something I play when I just want to vent off some steam, so I am not particulary picky. I enjoyed doom and quake back then, I enjoy Battlefield especially in multiplayer too. Guess that makes me some popamole decliner then
 

octavius

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Quake 2 had excellent level design, but suffered from combat not being as fun as in Doom, due to less interesting enemies and weapons. When playing Quake 2 I felt like it was possible to complete the game without ever getting hit. No other FPS has given me that feeling.
 

sea

inXile Entertainment
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Connecting maps into logical progression is an important task - haven't you complained about confusion some posts ago?
Short junction maps are also completely inoffensive in terms of confusion and copypasta.
Perhaps, but in a game as narrative-lite as Unreal, it's not really needed at all, and most of these felt like wastes of time. You can accomplish these transitions using maps with actual, you know, decent gameplay, or better yet, forget them and just build short transitions sections into existing maps.

Also, how is Noork's any different for Trench or Velora Pass?
As I recall, that one at least had some stuff to do in it. But maybe I'm mis-remembering.

A lot of RTNP levels are repurposed outtakes. Towards the end you may also appreciate those short junction maps and keeping narrative together as after the wreck RTNP just falls apart in this regard.
To be honest, I like the expansion. There are a couple of weaker levels and the voice-acting and story stuff is fucking horrid, but the levels are pretty enjoyable and lack any obvious bad bits. I like the return to non-linear exploration throughout, and most importantly, divorcing it from crappy switch-hunting puzzles. I really don't give a toss about the useless transition levels, as I said, which could have been turned into real levels otherwise.

Also, as an antithesis of interesting shooter I'd like to present Quake "I want to be a spazzmehreen" 2.
To be honest, I like Quake a lot, because in my opinion it did the "dumb corridor shooter w/ key hunt" thing rather well. I also found the enemy and weapon variety more enjoyable than in Unreal, even though technically Unreal is more creative in this respect. Quake just feels a lot more fun to play, less floaty and more grounded, and it shares a lot with Doom as far as interesting enemy composition is concerned (something Unreal lacks, as it feels like many areas are built around fighting 1-2 dudes at most).

:love:
Blood is great, but I wish someone could port it to the EDuke32 engine already.

I can't remember if I ever beat Quake 2, but I did get pretty far in it. From what I remember the game is pretty decent, and was one of the first to have enemies with more diverse behaviors and "believable" AI. I think the grimdark aesthetic just got to me after a while though, it was dreary and somewhat repetitive in terms of level design, especially next to Quake 1, and lacking Quake 1's slightly quaint gothic charm. It's nowhere near as good as Quake 1 but it's not bad or anything.

Quake 2 had excellent level design, but suffered from combat not being as fun as in Doom, due to less interesting enemies and weapons. When playing Quake 2 I felt like it was possible to complete the game without ever getting hit. No other FPS has given me that feeling.
I think the problem is that in Quake 2 the enemies take way too long to actually start shooting at them, so you can get away with just running past all of them. But you'd be surprised how many shooters you can beat without actually shooting anyone - Half-Life is an especially good example of being winnable just by running past everything.
 

DraQ

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Quake 2 had excellent level design
No, it had excellent layouts.
Rest of level design (visuals, concepts, diversity, lighting, etc.) was shit as well.

but suffered from combat not being as fun as in Doom, due to less interesting enemies and weapons. When playing Quake 2 I felt like it was possible to complete the game without ever getting hit. No other FPS has given me that feeling.
This. Quake 2 was a game where you could feasibly run through most or all of it on Hard+ without noticing someone someone switched your godmode on when you went to take a piss.

Now is a good time to ask why so many people hate Quake 2 because I think it's a pretty quality singleplayer game

Ask and you shall receive:
http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/index.php?threads/i-just-played-quake-2.70053/
(long read ahead, I wonder if my demo links are still functional)
unreal for instance struck me as clear attempt to make an "adventure" fps where you actually felt like you were stranded on a weird planet full of weird alien shit
Another World + FPS = Unreal
 
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Halo also had some repetitive and recycled levels. One you had to go through twice, and it was a succession of identical rooms and corridors. It was a long time ago though, my memory might amplify the tedium.
 

sea

inXile Entertainment
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Yeah, Halo has blatant reuse of levels both in terms of repeatedly going the same way over and over, and copy-paste. It's especially egregious in a couple of levels. The game does have good level design in the places where they obviously had the time to spend.
 

Kz3r0

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Yeah, Halo has blatant reuse of levels both in terms of repeatedly going the same way over and over, and copy-paste. It's especially egregious in a couple of levels. The game does have good level design in the places where they obviously had the time to spend.
Not quite, Halo is the worst offender of all not only because spearheaded FPS designed for console controllers but in the process 'flattened' the gameplay effectively removing one dimesion by 3D.
 

dnf

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On a slightly unrelated note, one thing which I find sad is that with the demise of oldschool FPS, also a form of very fast gaming completely disappeared. Not many games play very fast nowadays.
You know the answer to that... you can't have even 1/10 of that speed with a console controller, and since every FPS is multi-platform...
Yep, pretty much this, try circle strafing and bunnyhoping at great speed with that piece of shit.
Controllers and Kb+mouse is like picking between an female athlete and a male athlete.
 

DemonKing

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The 90s shooters basically reached their logical conclusion with HL1 - from that point on scripted sequences became the norm rather than the emergent gameplay of earlier shooters. Up to that point, stories were either delivered via cutscenes or even text on loading pages. Now we have CODs which are basically tons of scripting *and* cutscenes. HL was the first game where the story was delivered entirely seemlessly within the game world. I agree that HL2 didn't achieve much with regards to level design but they did a great job with delivering story-chunks in game - now you can bitch and moan about it being delivered in-game by talking heads but I think that's a much more elegant and realistic solution than the Bioshock model of people leaving their most intimate thoughts lying around on tapes for the player to pick up and replay.

Anyway - here's a list of shooters that I would recommend for anyone interested in the genre. Please note these are all titles that were born on PC:

Half Life (the grand-daddy of scripting)
FEAR (Decent AI + bullet time + amazing physics)
Medal of Honor: Allied Assault (granddaddy of COD - WW2 scripting fun)
Far Cry (Some nice non-linear levels and decent AI)
Max Payne (Graphic novel-style story delivery + 3rd Person + bullet time)

Sadly I'm struggling to think of a shooter game released originally as an exclusive PC game since the system--melting original Crysis. With multi-platform releases the PC version inevitably suffers somewhat due to the limitations of being designed with the technological limitations of consoles in mind.
 
In My Safe Space
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Codex 2012
The 90s shooters basically reached their logical conclusion with HL1
Except that they didn't. HL1 wasn't the logical conclusion of Wolvenstein, Doom, Rise of the Triad, Duke Nukem and Quake.
All these games were primarily about violence and general edginess and about exploration and secrets, not about the story.
 

DemonKing

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The 90s shooters basically reached their logical conclusion with HL1
Except that they didn't. HL1 wasn't the logical conclusion of Wolvenstein, Doom, Rise of the Triad, Duke Nukem and Quake.
All these games were primarily about violence and general edginess and about exploration and secrets, not about the story.

I didn't mean that HL1 was the logical evolution of those shooters, just that the emergence of HL meant that the previous style of gameplay had basically reached an endpoint with most future titles following on from the HL blueprint, hence the previous 90s style of shooter design was concluded.
 
In My Safe Space
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This thread reminded me of DoomRL. Damn, that's exactly what I needed. One Man Army, violence for violence's sake :) .
 
In My Safe Space
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I didn't mean that HL1 was the logical evolution of those shooters, just that the emergence of HL meant that the previous style of gameplay had basically reached an endpoint with most future titles following on from the HL blueprint, hence the previous 90s style of shooter design was concluded.
It wasn't really a question of it getting "concluded" but rather burned-out with loss of talent that was making these games. These games were made by the very specific teams of people and when these teams fell apart (I would say that John Romero leaving ID Software was the beginning of the end of classic FPS), ability to make such games in high enough quality to allow commercial success on the scale of Doom and Quake was lost.
Before that, Doom-style FPS games were co-existing with FMV shooters and simulations and hybrids like Hired Guns and Silent Shock and no one was crying that Quake isn't like System Shock.

And for example Serious Sam received a warm welcome as a violence-focused FPS despite that apparently its quality was sub-par.
 
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deuxhero

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Is there any post-2000 fpp shooter that you consider canon? Like Quake or Doom or even Blood.

Seriously, I cannot point a single game (except RTCW maybe), nothing was able to cross 8/10 border, blah even to reach that point.

I take it Jedi Outcast/Academy and Dark Messiah aren't "shooters"?
 

Lorica

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Mar 6, 2013
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One observation made by the OP that's been unfairly bashed and left by the wayside is that "variety is a forte of modern shooters."

I may be cherrypicking examples here, but it's only fair to hold up an emblematic game when we're using Doom, Unreal, Darkforces and the lot as "old school shooters" and ignoring the garbage.

Call of Duty: Modern Warfare's levels (source):

Prologue
  • F.N.G: Tutorial level..
  • Crew Expendable: Boat level that goes from creep forward corridor shooter, to close quarters arenas, to dash through a sinking ship (anyone else remember that DF level? hotdamn)
  • The Coup: Cinematic level without gameplay... Only worth talking about for artsy-fartsy reasons.
Act I
  • Blackout: Semi-stealthy beginning, sniping/grenade launcher midsection, close quarters end.
  • Charlie Don't Surf: Railshooter? Closequarters building clearing, urban combat, building clearing again with arena.
  • The Bog: Defend against waves.
  • Hunted: Speedy stealth/avoidance.
  • Death From Above: Railshooter, sort of. It's that gunship mission.
  • War Pig: Escort a tank, clear multistorey buildings and midrange gunplay in urban environment.
  • Shock and Awe: Railshooting, close-midrange combat, second speed based close ranged segment.
  • Aftermath: Another cinematic 'level.'
Act II
Act III
Epilogue
The TL;DR is that this game has decent variety between missions. Building sweeping and urban combat come up a lot, but it's punctuated by defense missions, the odd railshooting section, time trials, some mild stealth and sniping sections, and some arena type fights. If you go into the descriptions for each level, I think you'll quickly detect that even within missions there are usually two or three distinct phases where the objectives, pacing, and environment will often shift.

This is a great example, I think, of sea's point about variety. Of course, I think the best games of the old generation, like DF, did this well, but not to this extreme in my recollection.
 

Ninjerk

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oh my GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOD

also serious sam

Halo 1 was pretty cool on Legendary, there was health regeneration but it wans't popamole bullshit like today's.

Only bads things are the small number of weapons and slots for them (would've made more sense to allow the player to use 3 or 4 weapons) and that the Master Chief is a cyborg superhuman who walks slower than a Granny. Oh, and the Assault Rifle was a shitty popgun that ate ridiculous ammounts of ammo for no result at all, I can't believe that shit really had 7,62mm bullets. Also Plasma Rifle was crap for some reason, slow projectiles meant that the Elites LAWAYS dodged through my blasts and they simply hadn't enough power, whrereas plasma pistol was better.

I think enemy variety was quite good, especially once the Flood got on scene and you had to manage your guns in order to fight both as they appear (in my experience, human guns rock the flood and some lesser Covenant while plasma guns are better for killing Elites and other Covenant foes).

Only played the first Halo, never played 2 and 3, 2 because its HUGE (10 gigs? Go fuck yourselves.) and when I had a proper pc to play it I still used XP (Vista only? Go fuck yourselves) and 3 because I don't play games out of order.

Plasma rifle was amazing in multi.
 

Kz3r0

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Messages
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This is a great example, I think, of sea's point about variety. Of course, I think the best games of the old generation, like DF, did this well, but not to this extreme in my recollection.
AvP1.jpg
 

skacky

3D Realms
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DraQ said pretty much everything concerning Unreal. The only levels I dislike in that game are the Terraniux (really confusing), Dasa Cellars (horrible and boring level) and the Nali Castle (boring). All the other levels are awesome in my books. I especially like the ISV-Kran (cool change of pace), Bluff Eversmoking, the Sunspire and the Mothership levels.

I also have a dislike for Quake 2 as well. While Quake is my favorite FPS, Quake 2 is really meh in comparison. Slow and weak enemies, shitty sound design that makes the weapons seem weak, the weapons themselves are not really interesting, boring and uninspired artistic direction that only shines near the end of the game and also makes the Strogg appear not as threatening as they should have been, extremely slow compared to Quake (even in SP) and the game is just piss-easy. The soundtrack is great though.
 

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