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Decline Shooters used to be better (but not as much better as we think?)

sea

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Over the last week or two I've been burning through my old catalogue of shooters I've toyed around with or enjoyed the hell out of in years past - but never got too far in. Specifically that includes Unreal, and Jedi Knight: Dark Forces II.

We like to think a lot that modern shooters are complete and utter decline in pretty much every way - and a lot of the time, I agree. But going back and playing these games in earnest - not just for nostalgia satisfaction, but to genuinely enjoy them start to finish, "for the first time again", I'm finding that there's as much not to like at times than there is to enjoy.

Warning: this is kind of a proto-blog rant. I don't even know if I'm asking any questions, but I guess maybe someone either wants to read this or give their own take on things.

Developers "back in the day" very quickly understood that hitscan weapons being used against stationary targets were fucking boring, and the shooting itself is just so much more enjoyable due to their attempts to avoid just that. Going all the way back to Doom, basically the king of shooters, even id Software realized that shooters live primarily in the temporal space - that is, it's not just "aim at target, press fire key" that makes them fun, it's the short-term goal of setting up and executing the shots, and the long-term goal of resource management that are where the fun part lies.

Here's an example. In Unreal, firing a razorblade at a fast-moving enemy is not just about reflexes, but control, coordination and timing. You need to judge not just where to fire, but when, by figuring out on the fly, through experience, knowledge and your own skill, how long a projectile will take to reach its target, and where the target will have moved by the time the projectile reaches it. It's no coincidence that the only hitscan weapons in these older games tend to be either weak (basic pistols), limited on ammo or situational (sniper rilfes), or special power-ups, while the most powerful have significant time delays in the form of projectile movement and charge-up (such as Unreal's multi-shot rocket launcher).

Without the time pressures enforced by these systems, there's very little to like about shooters - and that's why games like Call of Duty et al are so bland and boring from a mechanics perspective. These temporally-contingent systems have been replaced with other ones. When we say that modern shooters lack "challenge" we're not saying that you will never die; what we're really saying is that in these games, the only challenge comes from health management over extremely short-term encounters, at worst spanning just a few seconds. There's nearly nothing else filling the gap mechanically.

What we have instead are mini-games. They're called things like "press the throw grenade button when an icon appears on your HUD", "press the knife button when an enemy pops out in front of you" and so on. These challenges are unfulfilling in comparison to the more interesting mechanics of older shooters because they are simple reflex tests and nothing more. Furthermore, the rest of the shooter gameplay is, indeed, a reflex test as well - press the fire button when an enemy pops up from behind cover. Auto-aim and snap-to controls (on consoles) further reduce the required coordination such that it's hard to even call targeting a significant part of modern shooter gameplay.

I feel like the raw mechanics and systems of shooters used to be much better, and I think we can all agree with that. But at the same time, there are places where a lot of these older shooters very obviously suffer - and that's mostly in level design and pacing.

If modern shooters have one strength, it's variety. These games are expertly paced such that you're going to be seeing a new vista, a new interesting encounter, a new weapon, a new enemy type, and so on every few minutes. You rarely have to go too long without something happening. In the worst modern shooters, that's overly-scripted cutscene nonsense, but in the better ones, like Half-Life 2, the game always has something new and interesting to show you.

That's not to say older shooters did not have good pacing or variety, but I think that it was a much more hit-or-miss kind of thing. The relative inexperience, lack of project oversight, strong creative direction and so on that was common in smaller studios of the time undoubtedly led a lack of QC, consistency and good pacing.

This is clearly evidenced in my recent shooter experiences - Unreal, though a great game, has tons of horrible levels which make so many fundamental mistakes that would never get past even the most popamole, committee-driven studio. One level in Unreal in particular that I learned to loathe is called The Sunspire. This level is a veritable maze of identical-looking corridors with no clear way forward, no good points of reference, and a complete lack of enemy and visual variety (save for one or two rooms) that make even basic navigation a chore, much less figuring out where you've been and where you need to go. Pretty sure it has respawning enemies too, so you can't even go by the trail of bodies you have left behind.

There are several more such levels in Unreal, many of them full of switch puzzles. At the best of times, these can be pretty intricate but also logical order-of-operations sorts of scenarios. Most of the time, though, they're simply set in a large, sprawling level which lacks clear landmarks for navigation, and which does not make clear what the cause and effect of your actions is (like a random lever opening a door on the other side of the map). I feel only the person who created these level could ever play this the first time and think "yep, that was pretty fun."

Now, as a counterpoint - Jedi Knight, which I also played recently, has fucking awesome level design most of the time, but I feel for its era it was kind of a rare exception. It straddles the line between everything perfectly - each level looks and playsdifferently, each has some sort of unique puzzle-type gimmick, each has some variation in the encounter designs and terrain, and so on. You can tell playing the game that a ton of time and effort went into ensuring they did all they could within their shooter framework. That's also why I was so disappointed with its expansion pack, which went right back to the worst trends of shooters at the time - long repetitive corridors, copy-pasted rooms, lack of landmarks to navigate using, obscure key hunting, and so on.

I also think that older shooters sometimes weren't so smart with pacing new enemies or weapon types out. In Unreal, you find pretty much every gun in the game by the halfway point through, and there are pretty much no new enemies to see beyond then as well. They even reuse the same mini-boss a half-dozen times over, and with each fight lasting a solid 3-5 minutes, it's never more fun the second, third, fourth or fifth time. Again, there are definite exceptions, like Half-Life, where you get new weapons and enemies to play with even in the endgame - but in my experience with shooters this isn't so common.

Playing through some of these older titles also makes me realize that shooters back in the day weren't as huge or lengthy as we like to remember. Sure, Call of Duty is a 5-6 hour campaign, but so are these older games if you don't stop and smell the roses or try to find every single secret. While they definitely have more exploration to them, a lot of the time that exploration takes the form of "wandering aimlessly through copy-pasted levels pressing levers and buttons." When I say "fuck it, I just want to finish the level", I'm often left in the situation realizing it's not clear at all where I'm supposed to go to do that. In other words, when you have really complicated and well-executed level design, this can be awesome - but when that falls apart and the player just wants to move on, sometimes a strong critical path can be a good thing.

What I want to see in future shooters are one which take those old-school mechanics (projectile weapons, deadly and mobile enemies, resource management) and combine them with some of the extra quality control, testing and consistency that more organized, modern teams are able to field. Sure, we have Serious Sam, but most of the self-styled old-school shooters out there tend to have a lot more in common with modern games than they like to admit - namely, far more restrictive level design and lack of creativity in mechanics, enemy types and so on. I just don't get why it's so hard for devs to actually make games that played like shooters from the 90s, instead of cheap nostalgia cash-grabs.

tl;dr :popamole:
 
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If modern shooters have one strength, it's variety. These games are expertly paced such that you're going to be seeing a new vista, a new interesting encounter, a new weapon, a new enemy type, and so on every few minutes. You rarely have to go too long without something happening. In the worst modern shooters, that's overly-scripted cutscene nonsense, but in the better ones, like Half-Life 2, the game always has something new and interesting to show you.
lol
 

sea

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I know people here don't like Half-Life 2 mostly due to Alyx and other dialogue scene stuff, as well as the meh gunplay, but at least the game's level design and pacing is damn close to perfect for what it's trying to do. The problem with finding other modern shooter examples to compare to old "pure" shooters is that there are so few games out there that actually do fit the mold of "just a shooter" anymore. The closest we have are Call of Duty, Battlefield, Crysis and Halo - and all the modern iterations of those games have few problems with pacing and scenario variety (shitty mechanics is another matter).

Maybe I didn't make my point clear. When I say these games have strong level design, what I'm saying is that they are usually play-tested to perfection of execution for what the design dictates. At the very least, you won't find dead spots with no gameplay, aimless wandering and searching for keys to open doors, and so on. As I said - when the more open-ended old-school level design comes together, it's awesome, but too often I find it's just as linear and scripted as newer games (just simpler), or a confusing mess.

That's what I'm trying to express when I say modern design could benefit older games - though that might be less a product of the quality of design itself, and more a product of budget, team size and so on.
 

J_C

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Well I don't have a big problem with modern FPS games except regenerating health and the overuse of scripted events. I happen to like old FPS games (Unreal, UT, HL1-2, Jedi Knight series) and new ones like Cod 1-4 (and just those), Crysis, Far Cry, BF. Never played Halo though. Honestly, if they would drop regenerating health and cover mechanics, I would like modern FPSs even more. The one thing that kills modern FPS is the lack of variety. Not in levels, but in games general. Most stuff is serious immersive modern military stuff. Yuck.
 

agentorange

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ur response is so much better infinitron

I don't think it matters much that modern shooters have prettier vistas to see, since in the end that is all you are doing - seeing them; the level design sucks, and is in most cases just laid out to incorporate as much un-interactive visual stimuli as possible: see games like Bioshock, CoD, new Syndicate. Everything around you might be nice looking but it's just window dressing. Obviously older shooters couldn't be as majestic because technology blahblah, but they made up for it by having levels that you actually had to navigate. Blood and Doom had really limited pallets, but the level design is so vastly more complex than any modern shooter. Obviously you are still trying to get from my point A to point B, but there are side passages, secret rooms, the ability to acquire weapons earlier than is normal, enemy placement that goes beyond just popping out of a door or from behind cover. You mentioned Half-Life 2, which I replayed a little while, and that game is quite literally one long narrow corridor (except maybe Ravenholme). Just the fact that you can get lost, while it can be annoying, is at least a testament to the fact that the levels had some complexity (although like you mentioned with the Sunspire there are levels that are just obtuse).

You mentioned pacing, and as far as acquiring all weapons early on, I'm really not sure what the problem with that is. I suppose it can be boring to get used to every weapon while you still have quite a lot of the game to get through, but I'd rather that than getting access to the best guns in the game with only one level of content remaining (like getting the blackhole gun in the final level of Quake 4). Like I mentioned earlier games like Blood and Doom had ways to acquire the more powerful weapons early on, if you managed to find them, and it was a great way to change up the gameplay in the early levels which can often be a bit dull due to only have a paltry selection of weak weapons. And again, coming back to Half-Life 2 (at least Half-Life 1 and Opposing Force gave you more than two alien weapons), the weapon selection in that game is fucking awful, and sections like Route Canal and the opening level, not to mention all the "interactive" cutscenes, throw a wrench into the cogs of pacing on multiple playthroughs. A big difference is that in older shooters, one you had acquired enough skill you could get through the levels as fast as you fucking wanted - or close to. In modern shooters they throttle the pacing in so many ways that you don't really have any choice but to accept the speed that the developers want you to go at. I think the better pacing as you call it is just a benefit, or side effect, of making the game more like a movie.

There's also the fact that older shooters were simply longer, and at times it does feel like many of them were being padded out for the sake of it. You ended up levels that are just jarringly bad or boring, like some of American Mcgee's levels in Doom 2 that seem to twist and turn forever, or (though not really an fps) the final levels of both Thief Gold and 2. But, I'd rather have the bad levels if it means more content to play, since some people might enjoy them and some of them can be fun if you just adjust your playstyle - whereas not having levels is just the end of it, no chance to make anything of them.
 
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I know people here don't like Half-Life 2 mostly due to Alyx and other dialogue scene stuff, as well as the meh gunplay, but at least the game's level design and pacing is damn close to perfect for what it's trying to do. The problem with finding other modern shooter examples to compare to old "pure" shooters is that there are so few games out there that actually do fit the mold of "just a shooter" anymore. The closest we have are Call of Duty, Battlefield, Crysis and Halo - and all the modern iterations of those games have few problems with pacing and scenario variety (shitty mechanics is another matter).

Maybe I didn't make my point clear. When I say these games have strong level design, what I'm saying is that they are usually play-tested to perfection of execution for what the design dictates. At the very least, you won't find dead spots with no gameplay, aimless wandering and searching for keys to open doors, and so on. As I said - when the more open-ended old-school level design comes together, it's awesome, but too often I find it's just as linear and scripted as newer games (just simpler), or a confusing mess.

That's what I'm trying to express when I say modern design could benefit older games - though that might be less a product of the quality of design itself, and more a product of budget, team size and so on.
Well, man. It's like, modern shooters are ghost train rides and old-school shooters are haunted houses. Of course it's much easier to keep pace and variety when you have perfect control over the player and what he does. But is it fun? Playing shooters like Hard Reset or Bioshock Infinite it got to a point where I knew EXACTLY where the action would start just based on how things are setup.
 

Correct_Carlo

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Playing through some of these older titles also makes me realize that shooters back in the day weren't as huge or lengthy as we like to remember. Sure, Call of Duty is a 5-6 hour campaign, but so are these older games if you don't stop and smell the roses or try to find every single secret. While they definitely have more exploration to them, a lot of the time that exploration takes the form of "wandering aimlessly through copy-pasted levels pressing levers and buttons."


I agree with alot of what you say, but kind of disagree with this. I tend to divide FPS games into pre and post Half-Life, as I think "Half-Life" came along and completely changed how FPSs were made and thus I think it is truly the first modern FPS. The problem I have with most pre-HL FPSs is that they are too bloody long and they take a very "coin-op arcade" approach to level design in that most levels are just the same few assets rearranged in a different order. This gets boring fast. Codex will probably faint at the decline of my saying so, but playing Doom and Quake SP, for example, has always reminded me of that old joke:

1st prize: 5 hours playing Doom
2nd prize: 10 hours playing Doom
3rd prize: 20 hours playing Doom
Consolation prize: 50 hours playing Doom

I still remember the visceral rush of playing Doom for the first time ever as a 10 year old and regard that as one of my greatest video gaming moments ever, but honestly once that initial rush is over the game itself is a bit dull. I finished it many times, but that was mostly just because I was 10 and didn't have fuck all else to play so I used to play games repeatedly back then.

Anyhow, I only realized most of this when I played "Serious Sam" for the first time recently. SS is technically a post-Half Life FPS, but it very much has an old school design mechanic to it and thus I think it suffers from that same problem. The game was an absolute blast to play for its first 6 or 7 levels, but then it just got tedious as you have seen everything the game has to offer by level 7 and thus the remaining 7 levels are just you mowing down the same enemies in increasingly similar looking Egyptian arenas. It seems like alot of old-school FPS felt like they had to pad things out to make the games longer by having a shit load of really similar looking levels, which is definitely one trend I am happy isn't as common with modern FPS'. Honestly, I don't think any FPS should ever be longer than 10 hours as very few are good or varied enough in terms of gameplay to hold you interest longer than that.

Which isn't to say that old school FPSs had no positive attributes. Even though levels weren't all that varied and things got repetitive fast, level design itself was waaaaaaay better back then. Levels were usually huge, complex, and often really fun in themselves. Half-Life was great for what it is, but it also introduced the trend of making FPS very cinematic and linear to the point of gameplay mostly just involving walking through a theme-park like corridor and watching cut scenes in between shooting monsters.

Which is why Jedi Knight is awesome as it's kind of a happy medium. It's unique in the pantheon of FPS' in that it combines all the best parts of Pre-Half-Life old school FPS (intricately designed levels that are HUGE) with all the best parts of post Half-Life FPS (a huge variety of settings and assets in each of the levels, an interesting story line).

The Build engine games (D3D, Blood, etc) were also kind of a mid-point between the two. They very much had old-school level design, but they also tended to be a bit more cinematic, atmospheric, and varied than the older FPSs were. Although, they definitely lean closer to Doom than Half-Life.
 
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Kz3r0

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Play better shooters Sea.
Your rant reads like the typical game journalist drivel about how old games weren't so different, sorry but no, Unreal was the popamole of its time and Jedi Knight is fucking amazing, saying that some games weren't that long without going after the secrets also means to completely miss the point, secrets were a huge part of the whole genre and videogames as such before the industry decided that creating additional content that few people will experience is a waste of money.
 

octavius

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I've been playing some of the earliest shooters lately, like Doom 1+2, System Shock and currently Heretic.

Doom 1 suffered a bit from too large and mazey levels, but Doom 2 was a marked improvement, with better designed levels (more logical, less hunting for keys and stuff to press, and packed full of enemies with much opportunity to goad them into fighting each other).

Heretic feels a bit bland after Doom 2, but is still an enjoyable game.

Also, the ID games had enemies in-fighting, which added a tactical element not seen in many other shooters.

System Shock had excellent level design, but the combat system was a bit iffy.

The last new shooters I played was Pacific Assault and Quake 4, but they were so railroaded, scripted and hectic that I soon tired of them.

I disagree about Half-Life 2 "always has something new and interesting to show you." The game takes forever to go through the intro and it takes a very long time for something exciting to happen. And when it does, it gets old fast - enemies pop up, and Gordon pops them down. The physics engine could have been used to create emergent gameplay, but instead it used was for puzzles belonging in Adventure games.

Hald-Life 1 also had its flaws. Not so much Xen, but more the too long sequences with jumping puzzles.

Unreal had some weak levels, but it made up for it with a unique atmosphere and more original weapons than in most FPSes. Also, some of the best enemy AI ever in the Skarj. Not to mention the bots in multi-player; why can't we have such AI in a single player game?

But to me Deus Ex is still the best FPS I've played, although it's some years ago now. Excellent level design, with large open levels that can be "solved" in many ways, some C&C, and cutscenes/dialogue that doesn't feel shoehorned in.
 

DefJam101

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I just don't get why it's so hard for devs to actually make games that played like shooters from the 90s, instead of cheap nostalgia cash-grabs.
It's a combination of advanced technology making efficient level design much more difficult, graphical expectations artificially restricting gameplay, new standards for what constitutes "good level design," a lack of understanding of what made older FPS games good, people being dumb, and people thinking older FPS games were "twitch shooters".

For instance, Doom would never be made today because:
- Creating and optimizing such complex levels in a modern engine would take a lot of effort.
- The game would slow to a crawl if every (highly detailed, high-poly) monster on every level was spawned at once, as was the case in Doom.
- The levels would look completely unrealistic and abstract, which is now viewed as a bad thing.
- Resource management would be eliminated in favor of single-encounter based design.
- Projectile weapons would be abandoned because they look silly and are unrealistic.
- Movement physics would be restricted and simplified.
- The game would be incredibly fast-paced and based entirely around reacting and shooting things quickly, because old school games were apparently all about reflexes.
 
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I'll agree that there were plenty of poor levels in older games ( :bro: for Jedi Knight being one of the greatest FPSs ever with continually amazing level design).

If modern shooters have one strength, it's variety. These games are expertly paced such that you're going to be seeing a new vista, a new interesting encounter, a new weapon, a new enemy type, and so on every few minutes. You rarely have to go too long without something happening. In the worst modern shooters, that's overly-scripted cutscene nonsense, but in the better ones, like Half-Life 2, the game always has something new and interesting to show you.

The downside being that in most of these games, said variety is just window-dressing. What good is new enemy types when they are the only difference is a model switch and requiring 20% more shooty to bring down? What good is a new area when the actual gameplay is in the same linear corridors?

I know people here don't like Half-Life 2 mostly due to Alyx and other dialogue scene stuff, as well as the meh gunplay, but at least the game's level design and pacing is damn close to perfect for what it's trying to do.

If you think what HL2 was trying to do was make a shooter for people who hate shooters, then OK. But otherwise HL2 is a travesty of wasted potential and gimmick design taking away from a potentially good game.
 

sea

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Maybe I should clarify this. I'm talking mostly about arcade shooters, not shooter-RPG hybrids, tactical shooters, etc. Kudos to the people who mentioned System Shock 2 and Deus Ex, but I don't consider them a part of this discussion, at least to be lumped in with arcade shooters of the day.

Well, man. It's like, modern shooters are ghost train rides and old-school shooters are haunted houses. Of course it's much easier to keep pace and variety when you have perfect control over the player and what he does. But is it fun? Playing shooters like Hard Reset or Bioshock Infinite it got to a point where I knew EXACTLY where the action would start just based on how things are setup.
I kind of know what you mean, and the spontaneous quality of older shooters is definitely nice, as well as the fact that you can't always know what's coming around every corner. But at the same time, if what is coming around every corner is usually pretty boring or just more of the same shit, is that really a good thing?

Play better shooters Sea.
Your rant reads like the typical game journalist drivel about how old games weren't so different, sorry but no, Unreal was the popamole of its time and Jedi Knight is fucking amazing, saying that some games weren't that long without going after the secrets also means to completely miss the point, secrets were a huge part of the whole genre and videogames as such before the industry decided that creating additional content that few people will experience is a waste of money.
Was Unreal really the popamole of its time, though? Sure it was popular, but the game has so much in it to like that modern games would never do (great enemy AI that is actually challenging, huge sprawling levels, etc.). I mean, that's the year Rainbow Six and Half-Life came out, and Unreal definitely looked dated next to it in every way but graphics, and there wasn't much else competition in arcade shooters at the time.

As for secrets, I know exactly what you mean - but I never bought the argument that you "needed" secrets in these older games due to resource management being more important. They definitely added an extra reason to replay the game (a hundred times) but what did they actually do for the gameplay? Usually just shower you with overpowered weapons way too early in the game, give you awesome power-ups that trivialized the rest of the level, and so on.

Going back to Unreal, that game has no documented secrets list, but it still contains secrets - yet the level design often makes it unclear if this path you're going down is worth your time or will just contain yet more ammo for a gun you stopped using hours ago. Doom-style secrets of walking around the level mashing the use key every two feet also kind of suck hard. I much prefer the Duke Nukem 3D style, where secrets are more about having a keen eye (i.e. looking for a crack in the wall to blow up), but as with many great games of its time, Duke Nukem 3D was an exception.
 
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tuluse

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I disagree about Half-Life 2 "always has something new and interesting to show you." The game takes forever to go through the intro and it takes a very long time for something exciting to happen. And when it does, it gets old fast - enemies pop up, and Gordon pops them down. The physics engine could have been used to create emergent gameplay, but instead it used was for puzzles belonging in Adventure games.
Most of the physics puzzles were scripted and didn't actually use the physics engine because they couldn't be sure people would have fast enough CPUs.
 

felipepepe

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I DON'T LIKE UNREAL

Okay, serious answer:

If modern shooters have one strength, it's variety. These games are expertly paced such that you're going to be seeing a new vista, a new interesting encounter, a new weapon, a new enemy type, and so on every few minutes. You rarely have to go too long without something happening. In the worst modern shooters, that's overly-scripted cutscene nonsense, but in the better ones, like Half-Life 2, the game always has something new and interesting to show you.
Honestly, what games are you talking about? Unless you're including more exotic stuff like Resident Evil 6 here, modern shooters usually have very few enemies, all of them people with guns, that act the same way. Halo and Gears of War have more varied enemy types, but still they are very little... Halo 1 had 5 enemies, Doom 1 had 10. Halo 4 has 7, Doom 2 has 20.

Playing through some of these older titles also makes me realize that shooters back in the day weren't as huge or lengthy as we like to remember. Sure, Call of Duty is a 5-6 hour campaign, but so are these older games if you don't stop and smell the roses or try to find every single secret.
Yeah, old shooters aren't very long. But how many times have you replayed Doom or Duke Nuken 3D? And how many times you would replay any modern shooter? They have tons of cutscenes and unskipabble "walking zones", no secrets and never feel really memorable... even replaying Half-Life 2 (vastly overrated IMHO) isn't interesting, since you'll do the exact same things, and have to go through all the shitty vehicle sections again...

On the other hand, just watching TotalBiscuit playing Shadow Warrior and finding a secret that I didn't knew already makes me want to play it again. Same thing with Witchaven, since I'm sure that today I could find more secret than I did 15 years ago (or so I hope :P).

What I want to see in future shooters are one which take those old-school mechanics (projectile weapons, deadly and mobile enemies, resource management) and combine them with some of the extra quality control, testing and consistency that more organized, modern teams are able to field. Sure, we have Serious Sam, but most of the self-styled old-school shooters out there tend to have a lot more in common with modern games than they like to admit - namely, far more restrictive level design and lack of creativity in mechanics, enemy types and so on. I just don't get why it's so hard for devs to actually make games that played like shooters from the 90s, instead of cheap nostalgia cash-grabs.
That's like how I dreamed in 1999... "if Fallout 1 & 2 are so awesome today, can you imagine how RPGs will be 10 years from now? JUST IMAGINE FALLOUT 3! :mindblown:!". :(
 

sea

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Honestly, what games are you talking about? Unless you're including more exotic stuff like Resident Evil 6 here, modern shooters usually have very few enemies, all of them people with guns, that act the same way. Halo and Gears of War have more varied enemy types, but still they are very little... Halo 1 had 5 enemies, Doom 1 had 10. Halo 4 has 7, Doom 2 has 20
I'm referring to variety and pacing in terms of level design, not enemy and weapon variety. In my experience, older shooters were extremely inconsistent... you could have long stretches of just awful, boring gameplay, followed by one or two fantastic levels. There are few to no games where each and every level is consistent with the last as far as quality goes, but I find most modern shooters tend to be polished enough that when I stop playing, it's not due to problems like poor pacing, but poor fundamental mechanics that quickly grow boring.

Yeah, old shooters aren't very long. But how many times have you replayed Doom or Duke Nuken 3D? And how many times you would replay any modern shooter? They have tons of cutscenes and unskipabble "walking zones", no secrets and never feel really memorable... even replaying Half-Life 2 (vastly overrated IMHO) isn't interesting, since you'll do the exact same things, and have to go through all the shitty vehicle sections again...
I agree that my biggest impediment to enjoying a lot of modern games comes down to the amount of unskippable crap in them. There is something to be said for efficiency. And since it's on my mind, Unreal is pretty good din that respect: its story is simple, but more importantly it's told mostly through the environment and completely optional lore entries (which are at times surprisingly well written). This all adds to the game's atmosphere and sense of mystery. Something a lot of modern games could maybe learn from, if they weren't so concerned with beating their audience over the head with explosions and exposition.
 

dnf

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Even COD have sekrits, so i don't see the point in raging about the lack of sekrits. Difference being that old games have mandatory exploration and modern ones are optional. Recently i played Alan Wake and noticed it: Game is a huge linear crawn (fucking samey forest tough), tough you can go off the quest compass to look for collectables and ammonition. Oldie level design is better IMO, unless we are talking about Dark Souls.
 

mindx2

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Codex 2012 PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015 Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire RPG Wokedex Serpent in the Staglands Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 BattleTech Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
Just recently finished another play-through of the Jedi Knight series and I'm still blown away with how much fun JK DFII is even today when compared to my lackluster response to today's so-called modern shooters. Besides TIE Fighter, it is the best Star Wars game ever made because it makes you feel like your actually in the Star Wars universe. The levels are absolutely huge and wonder how many modern engines would crumble under the load of trying to render them today. Others in this thread have also sung it's praises and I was wondering where are the level designers for this game today?
 

Night Goat

The Immovable Autism
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It's the fucking Greys bro. They take from us, not all at once but piece by piece, until one day everything is grey and identical like them.
 

Gurkog

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Multiplayer FPS failed me with the mass exodus from TFC to CS. How people can stand to play CS over and over boggles my mind. TFC had such variety in projectile velocity, spread, damage radius, etc... that fighting different classes stayed fresh.

The biggest problem I have with multiplayer FPS today is the lack of map objectives. Everything serves as a pseudo deathmatch which is the most unimaginitive, boring style of competition. Developers need to push outside the popamole comfort zone.
 

DefJam101

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The degradation of multiplayer shooters stems from what I'd call the "Great Twitch Shooter Myth," or the idea that older, more unrealistic FPS games were somehow less "tactical" (and more dependent on twitch reflexes) because they were unrealistic.

In reality, the opposite is often true. A person with bad reflexes cannot possibly hope to hold his own in Counter Strike/CoD/whatever because no matter how well he understands the game he will frequently get headshotted before he can react to his opponent. In Quake 3, a cunning player can level the playing field through prediction aiming, area control, superior movement, timing, retiming, setting traps, and so on, even if his aim is sub-par. The complete lack of realism adds layers of complexity to the game beyond simply knowing the maps and knowing how to aim.

edit: the exceptions are of course more simulation-y games like operation flashpoint etc but those aren't exactly comparable to traditional multiplayer shooters
 

DeepOcean

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The problem is that most Modern shooter don't have levels anymore. They are like a railshooter like House of the dead where you sometimes have to press W to progress. Click on the enemy and gain a prize.Everything around you works like those fake cinematic towns built for movies, even the enemies are just a facade, they are like those guys to be shot in a Silvester Stallone movie, you can almost see them on the ground saying to you: I'm not dead . You play like the stunt man on a movie, the only actions allowed are those that fit on the script.

The enemies aren't there to provide challenge and make you think wich weapons to use or what is the better strategy to deal with them, they are just targets to be shot not much different than a barrel, they are just a barrel in form of a ruskie wielding an AK 47, actually moving barrels would be more difficult to fight as they are smaller. Pick a barrel, put a military uniform in it, put a AK 47 and a Russia flag above it and throw red paint in your face every time you look at it , at the end of the fight you will be all red from the paint but wait a little and all the paint will go away, you will be ready for more red paint in the face, this is all the modern shooter experience. Sure, there is more variety like there are different models and textures for those generic middle eastern ruined buildings, if you pay attention, you can see a realistic dumpster out there with flies and everything, there are even different models for plastic bags. There are more variety for the enemies too like AK 47 ruskies, AK 47 cubans, AK 47 arabs, AK 47 africans, AK 47 CIA traitor agents, all races are represented. There are other enemy types too like snipers but those enemies are too lazy, the only sniper they could find in the whole army stand there in the same spot after he revealed his position, because Lieutenant Bob/Willams/Joe/John failed to stay frosty and die in slow motion in a dramatic scene with a shot in the head, well the poor sniper had his 15 sec of fame, he isn't useful anymore. Private Johnson gives to you the computer that controls the predator drone, while you control the missile (more like make his straight trajectory a little less straight) you see poor Muhameed all in gold shinning in the sun with a big yellow: "hit me moron" sign in his head. The only sniper in the whole muslim army exploding with the whole building with explosion pshysics powered by Havok. I liked a few modern shooters like Metro 2033, wolfenstein 2009 but more because they deviated from the formula a little.

While Half Life 1 can be considerated a modern shooter, it didn't gone all the way in the popamolification as one marine can easily kill you, throwing those grenades with mathematical precision and hiting you for half your health for the other side of the screen and the health will not return to 100 in 6s by the magic of wall hugging, later, they get desert eagles and rifle grenades (there isn't a big: someone throwed a grenade at you, moron, sign to warn you). The alien grunts can be even worse with shots that follow you and require alot of circle strafing in the open instead of hiding.
 

Menckenstein

Lunacy of Caen: Todd Reaver
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The only modern shooters I enjoy have co-op or teamwork involved.

Like Killing Floor, Payday series, Battlefield series, etc

The classics are okay to revisit but WADs created decades after their release are superior and the vanilla experience really doesn't compare anymore. Maybe I've just played through them too much.

My $0.02
 

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