Vapourware Scam Citizen - Only people with too much money can become StarCitizens! WOULD YOU LIKE TO KNOW MORE?

[Blaine]

Pledge ships don't factor into Squadron 42. As in the Wing Commander games, your character will be a naval officer, and he or she will pilot ships designated and provided by the United Empire of Earth. You'll operate from a Bengal-class carrier, and will fly milspec Hornets unavailable to civilians (including Star Citizen players), among other ships.

The ship tiers relevant to the Star Citizen persistent universe are varied. In order of value (approximately), the current pledge ships are:

• Aurora: Starter ship, though it still must be earned or pledged for. Many variants.
• 300i: "BMW"-styled fancy light fighter/courier.
• M50*: Light, super-fast racer/interceptor.
• Hornet: A heavy fighter, pretty much.
• Cutlass: Piracy-orientated heavy fighter.
• Freelancer: Two-man exploration/mercantile vessel.
• Retaliator*: Heavy bomber, can carry anti-capital torpedoes.
• Constellation: Millennium Falcon-style ship with a bridge, two turrets, living quarters, ample cargo space, etc.
• Starfarer*: Fuel tanker/big-ass cargo hauler.
• Vanduul Scythe**: An alien fighter, comparable to the Hornet.
• Idris Corvette**: A small, light capital ship with numerous turrets and able to carry 2-3 (TBD) single-seat ships.

*Were only available for a limited time.
**Were only available for a limited time, in limited quantities, and were unusually expensive.

My current pledges:

Spoiler

 

[Blaine]

The Codex Star Citizen Squadron Thread is up over in MMO(RP)G.

http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/index.php?threads/official-codex-star-citizen-squadron-thread.83766/

 

[Grunker]

Blaine, how the fuck can you say this is not Pay 2 Win when something like this is in the game?

If that's the kind of stuff you can buy for real money in game, my fingerprints will be no where near this game.

 

[Crooked Bee]

Good thing nostalgia didn't get the best of me and I didn't back this.

 

[Blaine]

Blaine, how the fuck can you say this is not Pay 2 Win when something like this is in the game?

If that's the kind of stuff you can buy for real money in game, my fingerprints will be no where near this game.

The only difference between Lifetime Insurance and Standard Hull Insurance is that you have to pay a nominal in-game fee for 1, 3, or 6 months of coverage, and renew when it expires. SHI will be affordable and universally available to all players.

LTI doesn't offer additional protection for your ship. Its protection is identical to SHI. LTI is nothing more than the waiving of a nominal fee, a small thank-you for pledging. If the LTI were removed from all of my pledge ships, I'd probably have to spend one extra Saturday doing some trading runs to afford SHI for them for the next three to six months.

Lack of understanding of LTI is a widespread issue. Also, some of the information in that Wiki is out of date.

 

[Infinitron]

I don't see how something that helps when you fail at the game is "pay to win". It's more like "pay not to lose as badly".

 

[Crooked Bee]

I don't see how something that helps when you fail at the game is "pay to win". It's more like "pay not to lose as badly".

Isn't that the common definition of pay2win though? As in, getting something more powerful than something regular players have so you can have an edge over them?

 

[Infinitron]

I don't see how something that helps when you fail at the game is "pay to win". It's more like "pay not to lose as badly".

Isn't that the common definition of pay2win though? As in, getting something more powerful than something regular players have so you can have an edge over them?

I'm not sure how much of an "edge" it actually is, if in the end of the day, you're still not good enough to actually win fights.

It could be a problem if the game is heavily based on winning battles by attrition and skill doesn't really matter. Blaine?

 

[Blaine]

Isn't that the common definition of pay2win though? As in, getting something more powerful than something regular players have so you can have an edge over them?

I'm not sure why ship insurance is so difficult for everyone to understand.

When an insured ship explodes or is captured by enemies, the insurance company replaces the entire ship in its stock configuration. The policy remains even after the ship is replaced—you don't have to buy a new policy each time. This insurance is universally available to absolutely everyone, and I do mean absolutely every single person, for a minor fee.

LTI waives that small fee simply because Chris doesn't want backers to lose their pledge ships, for any reason, other than "insurance fraud" (e.g. if you allow your pal to capture your ship, counting on getting a new one). It's possible to let a policy lapse or not buy one to begin with and lose a ship that way, which would be Darwin Award-level stupid, and it's such eventualities that LTI is meant to prevent.

A small waived fee is pay-to-win? Come on. That's just silly.

Again, every single player in the entire game will be able to insure their ship on the cheap, and once the policy is bought up for a period of months it will then be absolutely exactly the same as LTI in every single way, and by that I mean it will be totally identical to LTI in every single possible way unless you're really, really stupid and don't pay the small fee.

 

[Crooked Bee]

OK, I'm gonna trust you on that, Blaine.

If I am disappointed though...

 

[J_C]

It is the same as in EVE Online. You can (and you should) insure your ship against any loss, for a relativly small in-game fee.

Blaine, how the fuck can you say this is not Pay 2 Win when something like this is in the game?

If that's the kind of stuff you can buy for real money in game, my fingerprints will be no where near this game.

How is this pay 2 win? It is pay to don't lose everything. And since you can pay for a similar insurace with ingame money, there is no harm done.

 

[Blaine]

I wouldn't be playing this game either if LTI meant infinite ship replacements unavailable to players who aren't original backers.

Infinitron
I also won't play this game for long if having a large Santa bag full of ships translates to an instantaneous win. If you'll take a look at my pledges, you'll see a Constellation (for four players to use together), an Idris Corvette (for everyone to party on), and a single-seat fighter. It's true that a couple of ships, namely the starter ship (Aurora) and 300i (light fighter) are outclassed in technical specifications by one or more other ships. All of the other ships though serve specific roles and/or are balanced in some way. A Constellation is stronger than a Hornet, but it also costs 2.5x as much, its upgrades will be more expensive, and you'll need four players and/or hired NPCs to crew it, not one.

I absolutely guarantee you, I promise you that there'll be Aurora and 300i pilots beating Hornet pilots. In fact I daresay there will be singular 300i pilots beating two Hornet pilots at a time.

 

[IDtenT]

Even if it is or isn't P2W, pledge only ships gives the perception that content is being hidden from you - because you didn't back the kickstarter. If it so happens that Hornets do rack up good kills some people will be very disillusioned. As long as all class of ships are available to everyone then balancing the game would help. It would also be nice to know what exactly the in-game cash shop will offer. That said, the fact that people can host their own shard is optimistic to say the least.

How many known MMO personalities are working on this project?

Edit: Given that multiple people can be on a ship, will there be transport/taxi ships?

 

[Blaine]

Even if it is or isn't P2W, pledge only ships gives the perception that content is being hidden from you - because you didn't back the kickstarter. If it so happens that Hornets do rack up good kills some people will be very disillusioned. As long as all class of ships are available to everyone then balancing the game would help. It would also be nice to know what exactly the in-game cash shop will offer. That said, the fact that people can host their own shard is optimistic to say the least.

How many known MMO personalities are working on this project?

Edit: Given that multiple people can be on a ship, will there be transport/taxi ships?

1. There is no such thing as a pledge-only ship. All ships will be purchasable (or in the case of the alien fighter, capturable) in-game from NPC vendors for credits (normal in-game currency) at standardized prices.
2. The cash shop offers absolutely nothing but credits (normal in-game currency), and there's a monthly limit on the amount each player may purchase.
3. I don't know that any of the CIG team are "MMO personalities" per se. Mostly, they seem to be artists, modelers, programmers, a sound guy or two, a few designers, some managerial types (customer service, community relations, etc.), and Chris as the lead designer.
4. There isn't a dedicated taxi at this time per se, but most ships will be highly configurable, so you could easily configure a courier/taxi/troop transport. The Cutlass is a two-seat fighter and could function as a small taxi. The Freelancer is a two-crew exploration vessel and might carry extra passengers in addition to the crew. The Constellation is similar to the Millennium Falcon in that it can carry numerous passengers and possesses monstrous acceleration/deceleration (though not agility), and would make a great taxi or troop transport. The Caterpillar is essentially already a troop transport, being the same size class as the Constellation and having a tractor beam, docking ring for boarding actions, and ample room.

 

[IDtenT]

All pledge ships are purchasable in game? That's not how I remember it...

Credits for cash is one you'd think is obvious, but very few MMOs offer it.

I'm asking about MMO veterans, because balancing is different to the games Chris has been involved in.

 

[Blaine]

All pledge ships are purchasable in game? That's not how I remember it...

Yes, absolutely all pledge ships will be purchasable in-game for credits, except for the alien fighter which must be captured.

 

[IDtenT]

You talked about NPCs selling ships - so it won't fully go blueprint based player market economy? What role does the player play in the economy?

 

[Grunker]

Blaine, you're bullshitting.

Buying stuff that is cosmetic = Free 2 Play.

Buying stuff that affects gameplay = Pay 2 Win, to varying degrees.

Nr. 2 can be scaled down by letting non-paying players have access to everything paying players have via ingame currency. HOWEVER the split here is how much difference there is in amount of time spent by paying vs. non-paying players. Examples:

1) Neverwinter MMO = Pretty fail. You actually have access to shit as a paying player that non-paying customers will never have access to.

2) World of Tanks = Ultimate fail. Though in theory both types of players have access to everything, without paying, grinding for necessary shit takes positively ages.

3) League of Legends = Good compromise. Everyone can be compete without the "full" game, and everyone has access to the same shit. With just a bit of grinding everyone can get a fully competitive loadout.

4) Path of Exile = Best model. Everything in the cash shop is cosmetic or quality-of-life (like stash space). No gameplay affecting stuff at all.

Now, let's take a look at Star Citizen:

You can directly buy ingame cash (!!!), and you gain access to a variety of ingame stuff through pledging and supporting the Kickstarter. Now, based on this we can't conclude that the game has a shitty or good model, because that depends on how long this shit takes to grind for. That also means that Blaine saying it isn't Pay 2 Win is him guessing.

Based on the average MMO though, an economy where people can directly and legally buy ingame cash looks very sketchy. For example, this model could be almost indistinguishable from a Real Money Auction House. If the auction house uses ingame cash, and you can buy ingame cash for real money, you have a real money auction house.

There's a lot here to be extremely skeptical about. Blaine might be right in the end, and all these concerns will be adequately met by great solutions. But on paper, concern has merit and should be displayed by any critical consumer. For these reasons, I am not pledging to this until they give a full statement on the nature of their free 2 play mechanics and what exactly the economy will look like. Which probably means waiting for release.

 

[Sensuki]

DotA 2 is actually an even better model than PoE. The gameplay is not changed at all (I would consider stash space as a gameplay change).

Cosmetics and Tournament access (International is free though).

 

[Blaine]

Grunker

My attitude has never been that Star Citizen will absolutely, positively not be pay-to-win by the personal criteria of anyone and everyone. Earlier in this thread, I too expressed concern about the credits shop, what the monthly limit will be (we don't know), and how long the average player will have to "work" to earn X amount of credits (we don't know). I asked those very same questions in Chris Robert's Reddit AmA, and he in fact answered as best he could. I posted a screenshot of that response earlier in this thread. "Will this game be P2W?" is a popular (and much-hated by superfans) topic on the Star Citizen forums; when I participate in them, I tend to play Devil's advocate.

The long and the short of it is that it's far too early to call one way or the other. Chris Roberts seems genuinely determined that the game will not be pay-to-win, which, if nothing else, is much better than developers who absolutely do want their game to be pay-to-win.

The pledge ships are what they are. I'd estimate that they've brought in an additional $1-2m to help fund the game, which translates to a CIG-owned mocap studio, the funds to hire mocap actors, and hundreds of thousands that simply go toward improving the game. The downside of that for less fortunate players is that a fraction of 1% of the player base will have a large bag of ship hulls at the start of the game—in other words, there is no discernable downside unless 1 in 1000 strangers having more stuff than you is a total deal-breaker. You won't be the best pilot starting out, nor be part of the largest and most influential clan, either. You likely won't be able to play for 80 hours per week, but some people will. A tiny fraction of players with large bags of ships is absolutely negligible.

As for the cash-to-credits shop, it keeps the servers online and helps to support CIG without anyone having to pay a monthly fee. A fraction of players with plenty of money to burn will subsidize subscription fees for everyone else, and my pet theory is that players will be allowed to buy $100 worth of credits from the cash shop (100,000 credits) per month. My pet theory further extends to the average player earning 400,000+ credits per month of play, playing 40 hours per month—less than two hours per day. These are only pet theories, but the idea that people will be able to buy even half the credits the average player earns in a month playing normally seems far-fetched to me.

TL;DR: I realize and fully acknowledge that potential P2W is a concern of many and that only clarification/the game's final release will likely resolve the contentious issue one way or the other.

 

[Grunker]

We agree: there's no way of knowing, but potential of P2W.

Pledging on that foundation is sketchy at best. Other Kickstarters have been raged at for much, much less.

 

[Blaine]

Pledging on that foundation is sketchy at best. Other Kickstarters have been raged at for much, much less.

Grunker, the basic pledge (includes the game, an Aurora, and alpha/beta access) costs $35. It's not as though you've got to invest your life savings, nor will a few hundred (or a few thousand) fence-sitters have any meaningful impact on the crowdfund at this juncture. Even if the persistent universe multiplayer isn't to your taste, you'll still receive the single-player game and have access to mod-able, user-hosted multiplayer. Pledge ships and the credits shop do not factor into those modes.

That said, I've come up with a few potential new ideas for how to assist fence-sitters who want to try the combat alpha.

• Community property: I purchase 3-4 basic copies of the game. A dozen or so Codexers can then take turns using the accounts, allowing them to try out the combat alpha for free.
• Pledge match: Pledge $35 (or more if desired). I donate $35 to the Codex in your name. These will obviously be limited.
• Buyback program: Pledge $35. If you hate the game when it's released, I'll buy back your account for $35. Again, these will be limited. (I'll have use of these because I can utilize them to infiltrate and spy on player organizations.)

I think I'll be doing the first option regardless.

 

[Mortmal]

I did pledge for star citizen, but its getting so money oriented ,theres so much merchandising than i am losing interest into it,i really dont like where its going so i am not up to date . Citizen card, t-shirt.. ok why not , a few vanity shipsand skins ok why not, lets se idriss corv... WHAT??? 1000$ for some pixelated virtual ship.That's nearly as bad as the lord dipshit kickstarter with housing plots.
You know i could play x3 and get all the capital ships for free included in the game, a game thats worth like 10$ on steam now. Yes x3 is not online, but online is vastly overated and now overpriced .

You have to explain me how it doesnt matter, certainly owning a capital ship at release must grant some advantage over someone who doesnt. I hope theres at least a way to earn it in game ?
Honestly, i am absolutely disgusted , i regreat pledging, even if 35$ is nothing i fear i am backing a p2W game that may give free trials a few months after release due to lack of success.Reading their forums, apprently that bothers no one, its normal to sell a fucking virtual ship for 1000$...

Now elite dangerous seems much more reasonable.

 

[Metro]

Doesn't matter if it's pay2win, just align yourself with Grand Admiral Blaine Q. Moneybag's fleet and you will rule the galaxy!

 

[Blaine]

Mortmal
1 in 20 players will start with a slightly better ship hull than you. 1 in 100 will start with two or three nice ship hulls. Fewer than 1 in 500 will start with a large bag of ship hulls, and fewer than 1 in 1000 will start with an Idris Corvette. These pledge ships have brought in an additional $1-2 million and will pay for an in-house mocap studio, mocap actors, the salaries of 3-4 more developers, and the manpower/resources to have 100 solar systems ready at launch rather than 60-70, advantages that benefit everyone. The average pledge amount is $54. That's not even enough to upgrade the basic Aurora to a 300i.

Every ship has a role to play. An Idris Corvette, for example, is a group asset. It will be expensive (in terms of in-game credits) to fuel, upgrade, and repair. Its berthed fighters must be bought, upgraded, and maintained separately. It will require a crew in order to function—let's say one pilot, one copilot, one crewman to do patch-up repair jobs on internal systems, six crewmen manning the turrets, and 2-3 on standby to pilot the berthed single-seat fighters. All of these crewmen must either be players or NPCs hired for credits (and AI capabilities are limited). Sounds awfully grand, until you realize that two heavy torpedo bombers with a small fighter escort can pop it into glittering shards very quickly.

Yes, the Corvette (and indeed all pledge ships) can be purchased in-game for credits rather than pledged for, and organizations with 200+ players such as the Goons (Something Awful), Redd Squadron (Reddit), Black Widow Company, The Imperium, Blue Horizon Trading, and many more will easily be able to purchase and fully crew several of those ships less than a week into the game, probably on the very first day. You might see two or three at a time flying around. Smaller player organizations will be able to pitch in for one within a few weeks. You (and I, and the Codex squadron) cannot hope to match such power blocs, but I'm not going to huff and quit because of it.

Yes, players who begin with fancy ship hulls have an advantage of some kind, but it's an unbelievably marginal advantage that will diminish with each passing day and will be absolutely dwarfed by players working together in groups, players who mine/trade 40+ hours per week and earn far more credits than you can ever hope to, highly skilled pilots, and so on. You're getting worked up over almost nothing, a drop in an ocean. It's pure angst and jealousy. You and I will almost certainly never take and hold a Bengal carrier. Shall we quit now?

What is "winning"? Okay, so I have a capital ship, what have I won? Do I and my ten fellow crewmen win some PvE missions? Sure, yet eight players in Auroras did those same missions just as efficiently, if not more so. Did I beat a few guys in 300is whom I ambushed in lawless space? Nope. They're 3x more maneuverable than a capital ship, and were gone long before I could launch fighters. There's a secret base out here in lawless space, maybe I can defend it with my capital ship! That works fairly well until the Goons find out about it, then jump in 40 people piloting Auroras. Exploring for wormholes, undiscovered systems, and other space anomalies in an Idris is slow and inefficient, and people in Freelancers and Auroras will have a much better chance at making discoveries than me. Trading is perfectly viable in a range of affordable ships, don't need an Idris for that at all.

I "won" more options and a bit of group-orientated fun somewhat earlier than most other players will get to experience right away. You know, X³ is actually a good example, and I'm glad you brought it up. That game can never be "won". Whether you have one small ship or a fleet of thousands and your own solar systems filled with factories, you're still having fun (hopefully) and there's always yet more to do.