RTwP is salvageable

[anvi]

But that is a shitty player playing a shitty game. It has nothing to do with rtwp.

If you want to see every action (like you would in TB), isn't this what it looks like when you have autopause on in the IE games? Serious question, as it's been years since I played an IE game.

But yeah, that is hilariously bad combat, lol.

But why would you want to see every action? There is no need. You are supposed to pause for 5 seconds, queue up the next 10 seconds of action for each character, and then unpause and watch the action play out. If the game doesn't do a good job of doing that, it is the fault of the bad game. PoE is a laughably bad game. It is like a whole team of failed authors tried plan B.

 

[Mastermind]

Are you seriously trying to tout RTwP as being tactical? Is it more tactical than RT? Sure.

It is more tactical than TB too. Actually other than flavor there is absolutely nothing TB has on RT or RTwP.

But all things being equal, RTwP simply lacks the control and true tactical combat of a TB system. It devolves into a weird clusterfuck where you're constantly pausing to assess what just happened. In contrast, TB not only gives you more precision in discrete actions, it also does a better job of allowing you the ability to asses each action.

Lol how the fuck is "constantly pausing to assess what just happened" "lack of control"? It's the exact opposite, in RTwP you can constantly assess and adjust your actions limited only by the frame rate. In TB you are limited by turns. In Phase based you are even more limited than in run of the mill TB. There's simply no question about which one gives you more control.

To give an example, I was playing pillars yesterday and it's not uncommon for me to have a soekkcaster cast a spell on someone that someone else in my party ends up killing. I pause the game, cancel the cast and have him do something else. In phase based the character would have cast the spell at air even though it should be obvious to the character that there's nobody to cast it on. In TB I wouldn't have this scenario at all. Winner? RTwP.

Now there have been arguments made that RTwP does a better job at phase-based conbat because your actions and the enemy's are hapening simultaneously. I'd counter argue that you can still doe a phase-based combat system with turns and simultaneous resolution. This is not the same at RTwP mind you, as the control of a turn based sustem is still there without having to fiddle with the stupidity of pausing real time

The control is not there. Once you commit to actions in phase based you cannot change them on the fly like you can in RTwP. I don't think you understand what "control" is.

If you wanted, you could argue that TB/PB is more strategic (but less tactical) by forcing you to commit to your decisions to a much greater extent. But in truth even this can be done in RTwP by limiting pausing (say, every 3 seconds) so that you can't easily back out of a bad move. Again, because TB/PB are abstractions of real time, there is nothing that can be done in TB that can't be done in RT. But since abstractions are by their nature simpler than the reality they try to emulate, there are specific scenarios they cannot emulate.

Look TB faggots, if you like turn based that's fine. But drop this shit about how it's inherently "better" or "more tactical". It is not. It is objectively worse in every way. The only thing it has going for it is the subjective (IE: you like the flavor better). But this is subjective and not debatable. In the realm of the objective there is zero room for turn based, particularly on PC. The only, and original advantage TB had was offline, because you can't have a toy soldier battle in real time, you just don't have enough hands. So TB was invented as an abstraction of combat that allows one or more people to simulate a battle without having to move countless pieces simultaneously. Computers don't have this limitation, so the only reason to play TB games on a computer is because you enjoy their unique flavor (which I do at times). But, know your fucking place. Anything TB can do, RTwP can do. The opposite is not true.

 

[Mustawd]

Lol how the fuck is "constantly pausing to assess what just happened" "lack of control"? It's the exact opposite, in RTwP you can constantly assess and adjust your actions limited only by the frame rate. In TB you are limited by turns. In Phase based you are even more limited than in run of the mill TB. There's simply no question about which one gives you more control.

In TB it gives you 100% discrete turns. In RTwP it's all about how fast you pause. You call that control? Fuck off.

Look TB faggots, if you like turn based that's fine. But drop this shit about how it's inherently "better" or "more tactical". It is not. It is objectively worse in every way.

 

[Mastermind]

You are supposed to pause for 5 seconds, queue up the next 10 seconds of action for each character, and then unpause and watch the action play out.

Says who? Why are you supposed to do this? This is exactly the kind of subjective shit I talked about in my previous post. You guys have all sorts of stupid flavor complaints that you mistake for actual, objective flaws. It's like complaining about the UI color.

"It bothers me that I have to pause every 3 seconds ;_;"

Ok. So fucking what? How is that a flaw of the system? If it bothers you then you're not looking for a tactical experience, you're looking for an interactive movie. Go play Call of Duty, which is much better suited to your tastes.

 

[Mastermind]

Lol how the fuck is "constantly pausing to assess what just happened" "lack of control"? It's the exact opposite, in RTwP you can constantly assess and adjust your actions limited only by the frame rate. In TB you are limited by turns. In Phase based you are even more limited than in run of the mill TB. There's simply no question about which one gives you more control.

In TB it gives you 100% discrete turns. In RTwP it's all about how fast you pause. You call that control? Fuck off.

Autopause.

Nevermind that 100% discrete turns doesn't guarantee a high level of control. This is particularly true for AP systems where you don't know exactly how many shots you might want to pump in a motherfucker. But then if you don't use APs you run into other issues (IE: your character has "double strike" but you kill an enemy with the first one and the second one is wasted). Issues like these are entirely avoidable in RTwP but not in TB because of the limitations of the latter.

Look bro, you're new here. I've had this conversation before. There's nothing new you can throw at me that I haven't already destroyed on this subject. TB is objectively inferior, especially when it comes to control.

 

[Mustawd]

APs are like using the engagement system in RTwP. Both are dumb. Gimme TUs all day any day. In RTwP you might cast something at an enemy and then the enemy dies as the fireball or whatever stupid spell is going off due to the inanity of RTwP.

Such control Mastermind. Such control.

Nevermind that 100% discrete turns does guarantee a high level of control. This is particularly true for AP systems where you don't know exactly how many shots you might want to pump in a motherfucker. But then if you don't use APs you run into other issues (IE: your character has "double strike" but you kill an enemy with the first one and the second one is wasted). Issues like these are entirely avoidable in RTwP but not in TB because of the limitations of the latter.

This exact thing can happen in RTwP. Wtf are you even talking about? Are you seriously grabbing shit out of your ass from 2010 or whenever you think you solved the issues with RTwP? See above about enemies dying as you send off a spell due to RTwP's issues.

 

[Mastermind]

APs are like using the engagement system in RTwP. Both are dumb. Gimme TUs all day any day. In RTwP you might cast something at an enemy and then the enemy dies as the fireball or whatever stupid spell is going off due to the inanity of RTwP.

Such control Mastermind. Such control.

Yes, and that's not "inanity", that's how it should work. IRL you could have two snipers shoot at a target simultaneously and one of them wastes a bullet because the other headshots first. That's fine, there are limits to human reaction, like in the above fireball scenario you outline. The issue in TB is that even when a character SHOULD be able to reasonably react, they can't because they're stuck in discrete turns where you already gave the orders.

 

[Whiny-Butthurt-Liberal]

Ok. So fucking what? How is that a flaw of the system?

Manually interrupting the flow of combat every 3 seconds is pure autism. Either make every move turn-based, or have the player's reflexes adapt to uninterrupted combat. The first trains your analytical/strategic skills, the second trains your reflexes. RTwP trains nothing but mindless clicking.

 

[Declinator]

To give an example, I was playing pillars yesterday and it's not uncommon for me to have a soekkcaster cast a spell on someone that someone else in my party ends up killing. I pause the game, cancel the cast and have him do something else. In phase based the character would have cast the spell at air even though it should be obvious to the character that there's nobody to cast it on. In TB I wouldn't have this scenario at all. Winner? RTwP.

But then if you don't use APs you run into other issues (IE: your character has "double strike" but you kill an enemy with the first one and the second one is wasted). Issues like these are entirely avoidable in RTwP but not in TB because of the limitations of the latter.

You do know that these "issues" may just be features to others. Realism can be something to aim for but certainly not always. "Obvious to the character that there's nobody to cast it on" are you fucking kidding me. How about how it should be obvious to your enemies that they can move and attack while the player's characters are mysteriously unmoving as though time has paused. It's a goddamn game.

Anything TB can do, RTwP can do. The opposite is not true.

This is blatantly not true. You could start by what makes turn-based turn-based, i.e. the turns. First I go and then the enemy goes whereas in RTwP we both go.

Also, one of the things that lead to a feeling of lack of control in RTwP is the fact that your timing will always be slightly off hitting that pause button. You essentially lose some time to act every time due to time being an issue. It can be a tiny fraction of a second but it is there. You can of course set up auto pause (often at least) but it is pretty much impossible to set it for every eventuality.

 

[Mastermind]

Ok. So fucking what? How is that a flaw of the system?

Manually interrupting the flow of combat every 3 seconds is pure autism.

Yes but tactical games in general are pure autism.

Either make every move turn-based, or have the player's reflexes adapt to uninterrupted combat. The first trains your analytical/strategic skills, the second trains your reflexes. RTwP trains nothing but mindless clicking.

RTWP also trains your analytical/strategic skills. I like how you snuck a "make every move turn-based" in there without justification. Why? As I explained, turn-based limits the kind of things you can do. There's no reason, other than flavor, to prefer TB over pausing every 3 seconds.

 

[Black]

Ya'll know that Mastermind is just trolling the shit out of you, right?

 

[Mastermind]

You do know that these "issues" may just be features to others. Realism can be something to aim for but certainly not always. "Obvious to the character that there's nobody to cast it on" are you fucking kidding me. How about how it should be obvious to your enemies that they can move and attack while the player's characters are mysteriously unmoving as though time has paused. It's a goddamn game.

The issue isn't realism, it's the limitation of options. I don't like to waste actions, or lose a battle I should have reasonably won because the system hobbled me in some way.

This is blatantly not true. You could start by what makes turn-based turn-based, i.e. the turns. First I go and then the enemy goes whereas in RTwP we both go.

Well, actually you can. You could force RTwP characters to act in discrete 6 second phases, with initiative to determine who goes first. IIRC that's actually how the IE games worked.

Also, one of the things that lead to a feeling of lack of control in RTwP is the fact that your timing will always be slightly off hitting that pause button. You essentially lose some time to act every time due to time being an issue. It can be a tiny fraction of a second but it is there. You can of course set up auto pause (often at least) but it is pretty much impossible to set it for every eventuality.

I've never once run into this issue, even with an otherwise mediocre game like Pillars. And I don't even have that many autopause options set (i actually turned off "enemy casts spell" autopause because it was needlessly pausing way too often). I don't think being slightly off on the pause button is a real lack of control, especially compared to the big chunks of control lost in TB systems.

 

[Whiny-Butthurt-Liberal]

I like how you snuck

As I explained

Okay, we're dropping the autism-spectrum tryhard expert with degrees in Wikipedia and Tumblr attitude from now on and talking like normal people. If you don't know what that is, just don't bother.

turn-based limits the kind of things you can do

Turn-based has a consistent flow - you make all your available moves in your turn, then wait for the opponent to do the same, until someone wins. You can take your time and think about your actions as you're doing your turn.
Real-time also has a consistent flow - you have to roll with its speed and use your reflexes to keep up. Your analysis of what went right/wrong largely takes place after the battle, and in preparation for the next.
RTwP has no flow. Turns take place automatically, creating the illusion of real-time combat... which you can break at any time by cheating. I mean, hitting the pause button. You can't take your time and think about your actions strategically, because the turns are ending automatically (hence hitting the pause button every three seconds - might as well play turn-based at this point), and you also can't enjoy the thrill of real-time battle because you don't have to keep up - just hit the cheat button whenever your butt starts to hurt (if you're never hitting the pause button, then might as well play real-time). It's the worst of both worlds, and keeps the game from having a coherent and appropriately-difficult combat system - every single RTwP game is either ridiculously easy, or punishingly difficult. No flow, no go, no mo Jon Snow.

Ya'll know that Mastermind is just trolling the shit out of you, right?

Little does he know that I'M trolling him BACK!!

 

[Karellen]

Are you seriously trying to tout RTwP as being tactical? Is it more tactical than RT? Sure.

It is more tactical than TB too. Actually other than flavor there is absolutely nothing TB has on RT or RTwP.

I suspect that there's a big disagreement here about how to define "tactical". It's true that a real-time system is more expressive when it comes to responding to game events as they occur, but meanwhile, a turn-based system is much more reliably predictable: it is easy to make meaningful predictions about how the encounter will progress and act accordingly. The whole point of tactics in a good turn-based game is not to react to events happening, but to predict what is likely to happen and to take measures in advance so that, say, the enemy casting a fireball at your party doesn't ruin your day. In abstract board games you read ahead for dozens of turns, but even in good tactical RPGs you'd consider several turns ahead to figure out if a move is advantageous or not. It's pretty rare to have this in RtWP games - you have some of that in FTL, but even there reacting to things unexpectedly going wrong is the bulk of the game.

Could one make a RtWP game that enables planning and prediction to the same degree as a good turn-based game, though? It might be possible. If one considers Valkyria Chronicles a RtWP game, then certainly it's already been done. I don't think it really counts, but clearly it depends to some extent on implementation too. That said, for all practical purposes, the sort of RtWP you see in most RPGs seems to introduce so much chaos into the system that predicting events accurately ceases to be meaningful at a ceratin point, so you rarely end up making plans as elaborate as you do in the best turn-based tactical RPGs.

 

[Mastermind]

You can't take your time and think about your actions strategically

and you also can't enjoy the thrill of real-time battle because you don't have to keep up - just hit the cheat button whenever your butt starts to hurt (if you're never hitting the pause button, then might as well play real-time).

The topic is TB vs RTWP. I don't deny that there are things normal real time can do which RTWP cannot. In fact I explicitly offered one such example. So it's pointless to tell me the benefits of real time. Conversely, the only benefit of tb you listed are that "it has a consistent flow" (whatever the fuck that means, nothing as far as I can tell) and that "you don't have time to think about your actions strategically in rtwp" in a format where you can fucking stop time at will, a statement so stupid and/or blatantly trollish I should just not reply to you anymore. As I said (and offered several scenarios) RTwP can do anything TB can do. TB cannot do everything rtwp can do. It simply makes no sense to say RTWP is "the worst of both worlds". RTWP is the superior tactical choice. RT is the superior strategic choice. TB is good only for subjective flavor.

It's the worst of both worlds, and keeps the game from having a coherent and appropriately-difficult combat system - every single RTwP game is either ridiculously easy, or punishingly difficult. No flow, no go, no mo Jon Snow.

Nah.

 

[Mastermind]

I suspect that there's a big disagreement here about how to define "tactical". It's true that a real-time system is more expressive when it comes to responding to game events as they occur, but meanwhile, a turn-based system is much more reliably predictable: it is easy to make meaningful predictions about how the encounter will progress and act accordingly.

This has nothing to do with the system itself but with the designer, which is another issue entirely. I don't agree that TB games are more reliably predictable though. Any game, regardless of format, becomes reliably predictable once you know how it works. Ideally, a game would make prediction without metaknowledge possible, but few games do this and TB games not only don't do this more often than RT ones do, the format itself doesn't make it any easier to do so.

The whole point of tactics in a good turn-based game is not to react to events happening, but to predict what is likely to happen and to take measures in advance so that, say, the enemy casting a fireball at your party doesn't ruin your day. In abstract board games you read ahead for dozens of turns, but even in good tactical RPGs you'd consider several turns ahead to figure out if a move is advantageous or not. It's pretty rare to have this in RtWP games - you have some of that in FTL, but even there reacting to things unexpectedly going wrong is the bulk of the game.

It's really not rare at all. IE: in Pillars for example I can predict that letting wizards/druids live too long means they're liable to drop a nuke on my entire party, so I try to take them out first. i try to use my front line to bunch up enemies so I can drop my own nukes on them, etc. BG2 mage duels were less about reacting and more about consistently following through on a previously laid out plan to strip the other mage of defenses and then quickly butcher them. A good game should have a healthy mix of planning and reaction to unpredictable events, and even mediocre games like Pillars offer this. Ideally a TB game should too, but it doesn't change the fact that TB games are more limited on the control front.

 

[vivec]

Mastermind

Plenty of good points but some born from the experience of TB as implemented in cRPGs. Seriously, play a table top PnP and you will find that TB can totally be strategic and tactical in the way you want. I can bet that the real problem is the AI. In a TB game, it should be easier to implement a good AI than RT games, but I assume that this is not really a priority for most developers. In RTwP the general confusion provides a substitute for a good AI. Tell me of ONE RTwP game where the combat was challenging due to how the AI reacted to your actions instead of the pre-planed setup (BG1/2).

 

[oneself]

All problems withh RTwP stems from problems with consolidating movement speed and turn time. You get stupid things like using less than a quarter of a turn to close the gap and waiting 3/4 of a turn pass so you can do an action the next turn. Only for enemies to move right before their next turn so mess up ability usage.

The best application of RTwP I've seen are exactly that, real-time with pause. They don't employ a turn time at all.

 

[anvi]

You are supposed to pause for 5 seconds, queue up the next 10 seconds of action for each character, and then unpause and watch the action play out.

Says who? Why are you supposed to do this?

Says logic and sanity? I never used autopause in a game like that. And I never paused for long to issue orders. And I never lose. So why would you spend all day pausing stuff when you don't need to?

 

[Black]

And I never lose

We got a Trump over here.

 

[laclongquan]

Bah, RTwP can be tactical as fuck. If it's otherwise to you, play some gud gamz, sons.

Example: UFO Afterlight (Shock too but I like Light better)

Case a: your team are going to get surrounded by enemies in three routes converging if you just stand there. You can move to the observation shack on the right, kick that group ass fast and hard, then hole up there to defend, hope that the TNT you drop on the way will wound some en route. You can move to the small canyon on the left, fast, kill the armored fuckers on the way and RUN because standing and you get enemies front and back, run like a chicken toward end of canyon, hopefully lose most of armored heavies, but surely getting wounds on the way. Or you can just move forward a little, set down a bunch of TNT on three routes, move back to defend. Hopefully it will all get some before they getting into your guns' range and HOPEFULLY enough for you to survive in a siege situation.

Case b: you got your team near a hard defense point. It's pretty damn certain the armored light bosses inside can make mincemeat out of you if you force your way in. So you have some choice A: lure them out to your position, and hope that the TNT you set up on the way will wound all of you, but more likely to hit them on the ground and you standing so that you can shoot first. B send a diversion force to the other entry point, and force your way in in a pincer attack. The bosses might be able to kick one team's ass but in clear sight of the other so hopefully will get killed before the bait team get killed. C: throw a bunch of grenade into the barely possible locations. It's 99% certain wont hurt target but it might be that they will move to unfavourable defense points so a frontal attack will bring less wounds.

Case c: defend a location. You have to stay in this room because wild open invite enemies from all side. In a room you have a clear lane of attack. The two lightest but fastest shooters on the door because once enemies open, get in, you need to close that door to prevent outside shooting in. The rest shoot that target, praying that he didnt pull out an explosive. You can try running outside and set TNT a bit far from the door so that it will wounds attacker before they entry, but it's fifty, fifty, honestly.

 

[anvi]

And I never lose

We got a Trump over here.

It is hard to lose in a RPG though, unless you have no hands or something. But yeah I have always completed every rpg I've played, and never needed to pause excessively. The video linked earlier shows some sort of retard.

 

[Valky]

No it's not.

On a different note, what's the difference between TB and Phases? I set Wizardry 8 to auto pause between phases and it seems like TB to me.

 

[Severian Silk]

RTwP was okay in Freedom Force, Nexus:TJI and Homeworld, because they are slow games, and because battles are spread out over a large area. In the latter two cases, it may also have something to do with there being no (or very few) melee attacks in the games. Only ranged. Even Freedom Force had only a few pure melee units.

Other RTwP games are clusterfucks.

 

[Charles Eli Cheese]

no