RTwP is salvageable

[Mustawd]

Having an AoO-type system combined with RTwP seems like a horrible idea.

 

[Luckmann]

Stop playing shit game.

If you want strictly RTwP combat, choose UFO Aftershock or UFO Afterlight.

If you want optimization of time unit in RTwP combat, play Valkyria Chronicles.

I don't think I've played a single real-time RPG that I didn't wish I could pause, honestly.

I usually prefer turn-based these days, but I never understood the hate for RTwP.

 

[Bohrain]

The only advantage of RTwP over TB I see is that it saves you spending time on menial tasks like making multiple characters use generic attack command on multiple turns. Or if battle animations take a long time to play and they are roughly the same length in a RTwP and a TB game, RTwP game end up playing faster since animations play out simultaneously.
But on the other hand if the turn based system in comparison is designed well enough that you spend negligible amount or no turns at all doing shit that requires no thought on opportunity costs.
Ergo RTwP is only good in comparison to TB if turn based has shitty design and/or overly lengthy animations.
Now when it comes to RT vs RTwP, the only advantage of RTwP is having better control over multiple characters. But on the other hand if party AI worked well there would be minimal reason to give direct commands to more than one character in the first place. So in that case I see RTwP only as a compromise to RT for lacking AI, unless the AI is lacking for design purposes, such as for the sake of novelty experience.

tl;dr RTwP is only a good design choice if you can't come up with a good TB system, can't design a RT system with a functioning party AI or want to do it for the sake of novelty

 

[IncendiaryDevice]

The only advantage of RTwP over TB I see is that it saves you spending time on menial tasks like making multiple characters use generic attack command on multiple turns. Or if battle animations take a long time to play and they are roughly the same length in a RTwP and a TB game, RTwP game end up playing faster since animations play out simultaneously.
But on the other hand if the turn based system in comparison is designed well enough that you spend negligible amount or no turns at all doing shit that requires no thought on opportunity costs.
Ergo RTwP is only good in comparison to TB if turn based has shitty design and/or overly lengthy animations.
Now when it comes to RT vs RTwP, the only advantage of RTwP is having better control over multiple characters. But on the other hand if party AI worked well there would be minimal reason to give direct commands to more than one character in the first place. So in that case I see RTwP only as a compromise to RT for lacking AI, unless the AI is lacking for design purposes, such as for the sake of novelty experience.

tl;dr RTwP is only a good design choice if you can't come up with a good TB system, can't design a RT system with a functioning party AI or want to do it for the sake of novelty

I agree with a lot of your points, but I'll only concentrate this post on where I'm not understanding you:

The only benefit you can see from RTwP is as a time saver? Ok, did you not read my post not a few before yours? Now that you know that knowledge are you going to agree that "the only advantage" is hyperbolic crap, or start a meaningless and 10 page argument about how tactical manoeuvring is somehow not relevant to the debate?

You seem to like the word "only" like you suffer from carpel tunnel syndrome or something.

If your RT game is party based and has superb AI that operates all your companions perfectly then what the fuck are you adding to the experience as the player? Occasionally healing someone and occasionally striking someone, never really knowing if your input is even needed? Just mashing buttons because it seems to be fun to mash buttons? If you can't control the whole party its decline no matter what, surely. Might as well go solo, no? Oh, but wait, all the game's encounters are balanced for a party, I guess you'll have to min/max from walkthroughs to go solo. I'm willing to concede that the world is full of people who 'enjoy' being one small cog in a game that plays itself, but no amount of "it's ok, its fun" posts can reduce the fact that it's a complete intellectual cop-out to have a party based game where you can't control the whole party.

tl;dr all of your "only"s are complete bullshit, even though what you do say is mostly correct, because there's no "only"s in this debate.

 

[Quillon]

People complain about RTwP cos they can't follow the combat/simultaneous actions so they can't play it effectively so they shit on it in favor of their easy mod TB. The only exciting thing happening in TB combat is disengagement attacks/overwatch attacks and they are exciting precisely cos there is at least two characters doing things at the same time, otherwise its dull as shit, unrealistic as shit(mostly from a visual perspective), slow as shit, gamey as shit. Fuck you and your TB combat that you can't get enough of for some reason. There is literally only one studio making party based RTwP games atm and its too much somehow. Go play your TB games from the incompetent devs who are making TB games(see the pattern?).

Most popular dev in Codex forums has no TB game under their belt so HA!... haha.. hahahahaha....ah yea there was that south park game, well fuck it.

 

[Mustawd]

The only benefit you can see from RTwP is as a time saver? Ok, did you not read my post not a few before yours? Now that you know that knowledge are you going to agree that "the only advantage" is hyperbolic crap, or start a meaningless and 10 page argument about how tactical manoeuvring is somehow not relevant to the debate?

Are you seriously trying to tout RTwP as being tactical? Is it more tactical than RT? Sure. But all things being equal, RTwP simply lacks the control and true tactical combat of a TB system. It devolves into a weird clusterfuck where you're constantly pausing to assess what just happened. In contrast, TB not only gives you more precision in discrete actions, it also does a better job of allowing you the ability to asses each action.

Now there have been arguments made that RTwP does a better job at phase-based conbat because your actions and the enemy's are hapening simultaneously. I'd counter argue that you can still doe a phase-based combat system with turns and simultaneous resolution. This is not the same at RTwP mind you, as the control of a turn based sustem is still there without having to fiddle with the stupidity of pausing real time.

Now, I did say "all things being equal" earlier. Of course this is hardly ever the case, so I do concede thst a RTwP sustem can be superior to a crappily inplemented TB one. But that's hardly here nor there.

Anyhow, at the end of the day, going back to the original point, RTwP's biggest advantage over TB is the ability for larger battles to go by faster. Not saying it is more satisfying that TB mind you, it just handles large battles quicker than TB can.

Which puts us back to the only reason to use RTwP, assuming you can't design a good TB game, is as a time saver.

 

[IncendiaryDevice]

The only benefit you can see from RTwP is as a time saver? Ok, did you not read my post not a few before yours? Now that you know that knowledge are you going to agree that "the only advantage" is hyperbolic crap, or start a meaningless and 10 page argument about how tactical manoeuvring is somehow not relevant to the debate?

Are you seriously trying to tout RTwP as being tactical?

Stopped reading there sunny boy. If you refuse to see it then there's little point arguing. RTwP has a lot of tactical elements that are unique to RTwP. Whether you like those additional tactical elements is a different topic, but denying they exist is just pointless bullshit.

 

[Mustawd]

Like what?

 

[IncendiaryDevice]

Like what I posted about previously in the thread you spambot.

 

[Mustawd]

RTwP is the only system which, most of the time, allows for tactical manoeuvring across the entire map. Some turn-based games probably do, but the default of turn-based is usually to lock you into some form of grid, or, worse still, root you to the spot.

Do you mean that vaguely worded statement? What does that even mean?

Why would RTwP have any bearing on the entire map of a combat encounter?

 

[Gangrelrumbler]

RTwP was pretty sweet in Freedom Force and the sequel. It had part-based combat with a lot of friendly-fire AoE attacks, flying, terrain destruction, status effects and stuff. Just stop playing shitty games made by morons. I can't believe that devs can't get party-based RTwP combat when Irrational (fucking Bioshock devs of all people) had shown everyone how it's done over a decade ago.

 

[IncendiaryDevice]

RTwP is the only system which, most of the time, allows for tactical manoeuvring across the entire map. Some turn-based games probably do, but the default of turn-based is usually to lock you into some form of grid, or, worse still, root you to the spot.

Do you mean that vaguely worded statement? What does that even mean?

Why would RTwP have any bearing on the entire map of a combat encounter?

Really? Everyone else who replied to it seemed to instantly know exactly wtf I was on about. You don't? Oh, right. I guess you haven't a fucking clue then and I'll have to waste time spelling out the difference between RTwP, RT and TB and all their varieties like some fucking beginners guide to RPGs because you're a fucking n00b who somehow thinks they know everything there is to know about game combat systems. Fuck me. Give me half an hour and I'll write you a fucking book.

 

[Mustawd]

ID, to me it sounds like you're making a point between grid-based and gridless combat, which I'm not sure why you feel RTwP has anything to do with it.

All you're doing ITT is making vague statements and getting angry. I'm still waiting for the awesome argument of why RTwP, as a combat system, is tactical. I personally think it can be fun (see FTL as one example), but for my tastes it's completely lacking when you compare it to turn-based.

 

[IncendiaryDevice]

ID, to me it sounds like you're making a point between grid-based and gridless combat, which I'm not sure why you feel RTwP has anything to do with it.

Apart from the fact that RTwP is 99/100 always gridless and therefore inherently more tactical with regard manoeuvrability whereas TB is 99/100 grid based and therefore inherently limiting to manoeuvrability.

There's no AWESOME ARGUMENT, there's just you desperate to belittle RTwP because you don't like it for whatever spasticated reason.

 

[Mustawd]

So if I make a gridless TB game that automatically negates all the advantages of RTwP?

 

[IncendiaryDevice]

So if I make a gridless TB game that automatically negates all the advantages of RTwP?

I dunno mate, how will your team of adventurers all run in different directions at the exact same time they see the bad guy start to throw a grenade in the middle of your group?

Oh right, make it phase based turn based combat, oh, but wait, now you have to try and predict which way their psychopathic warrior of 3,000 Armour is going to run, you know, instead of seeing it in real time, pausing, and changing direction fluidly.

 

[anvi]

I don't see a problem with rtwp, it is faster than turn based but still lets you control multiple characters at your own pace while the game waits for you. I prefer turn based, preferably with a grid too, but RTWP is fine as well.

 

[Mustawd]

So if I make a gridless TB game that automatically negates all the advantages of RTwP?

I dunno mate, how will your team of adventurers all run in different directions at the exact same time they see the bad guy start to throw a grenade in the middle of your group?

Oh right, make it phase based turn based combat, oh, but wait, now you have to try and predict which way their psychopathic warrior of 3,000 Armour is going to run, you know, instead of seeing it in real time, pausing, and changing direction fluidly.

See? That's a good point actually. Jesus ID, took you long enough.

So you're referring to how fluid it is going in and out of combat? Yes, I guess that is an inherent advantage, as TB at some point needs to go into TB combat if movement is RT. Although, I will counter a bit that in the Avernum games both movement and combat was turn-based, so you could simply avoid combat by moving away (except for the encounters on the world map which would transport you to a totally different map). But I agree overall that RTwP "feels" better in terms of how and when you engage the enemy.

 

[Mustawd]

I don't see a problem with rtwp

 

[anvi]

But that is a shitty player playing a shitty game. It has nothing to do with rtwp.

 

[Black]

RTwP is a mistake

Baldurs Gate?

A good example of a mistake.

RTwP is salvageable

 

[Mustawd]

But that is a shitty player playing a shitty game. It has nothing to do with rtwp.

If you want to see every action (like you would in TB), isn't this what it looks like when you have autopause on in the IE games? Serious question, as it's been years since I played an IE game.

But yeah, that is hilariously bad combat, lol.

 

[IncendiaryDevice]

So if I make a gridless TB game that automatically negates all the advantages of RTwP?

I dunno mate, how will your team of adventurers all run in different directions at the exact same time they see the bad guy start to throw a grenade in the middle of your group?

Oh right, make it phase based turn based combat, oh, but wait, now you have to try and predict which way their psychopathic warrior of 3,000 Armour is going to run, you know, instead of seeing it in real time, pausing, and changing direction fluidly.

See? That's a good point actually. Jesus ID, took you long enough.

So you're referring to how fluid it is going in and out of combat? Yes, I guess that is an inherent advantage, as TB at some point needs to go into TB combat if movement is RT. Although, I will counter a bit that in the Avernum games both movement and combat was turn-based, so you could simply avoid combat by moving away (except for the encounters on the world map which would transport you to a totally different map). But I agree overall that RTwP "feels" better in terms of how and when you engage the enemy.

I dunno why you're making this out to be some kind of brain drain analysis of whatever it is you're talking about, my original statement of tactical manoeuvrability covers any situation where you are moving at the same time as every other piece on the board but with the tactical advantage of being able to pause and issue new commands whenever you want to. What benefits this provides is blatant common-sense to anyone who's played a half decent RTwP system and people who have will be doing all these many tactical advantages without even registering that what they are doing is pretty unique to RTwP. If you need someone to literally spell out every individual nuance of tactical RTwP then you either have never played RTwP or you're running an agenda.

Though why anyone has that agenda is beyond me. Because they simply prefer TB? Ok, just play TB games then, seems pretty fucking easy to me. Why the fuck would anyone who hates RTwP even be playing a spiritual successor to the IE games anyway? Do I bitch and moan that MMX should have been isometric RTwP? Will you even catch me posting in a MMX thread? Unbelievable fucking retards.

 

[Mustawd]

So angry....

 

[Invictus]

My favorite game uses rtwp (Darklands) but since it is such a highly polished system given its AI limitations that they added many options to make it more interesting than pointing at the enemy and waiting for combat to be over but not falling into the "pause every second" from the IE games.

For example you might start combat using ranged weapons, throw a black tar potion to alow you to have at least 3 volleys and then finish off stranglers in melee, or start by throwing a sunburst potion to blind your enemies and focus your fire on the heavy plate leader, or have your lesser fighters just parry to avoid damage until the best fighters finish off their opponents and then help out... all in all it works because you night give general orders and watch it unfold rather than micromanaging everything, that way rtwp works wonderfully
The problems started with having to micromanage everything or having the battle turn on a single spell