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RPGs cannot have action-based movement or combat, Fallout: New Vegas is not an RPG

Sigourn

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Sigourn, don't be naive, F:NV is built around walking and shooting, everything else is secondary.

New Vegas is my most replayed RPG, alongside Morrowind. In Morrowind, that may be the case. Not in New Vegas. For a "shooter", you face less enemies in the first two hours of gameplay than you face in just 5 minutes of navigating the first floor in Wizardry.

If New Vegas is built around walking and shooting, so is Fallout and Fallout 2.
 
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Grab the Codex by the pussy
Sigourn, don't be naive, F:NV is built around walking and shooting, everything else is secondary.
You have no idea what you are talking about, do you?

Blakemoreland Hybrid Boss, it's one type of ability, there are others, but you weren't talking about that.
You: this kind of combat is not cRPG-combat because is not solely determined by stats, since it also involves players’ abilities.

Me: cRPG combat in general involves players’ intelligence, which is also a personal ability.

You: Player’s intelligence is allowed in a cRPG, but not reflexes.

This is pure circular reasoning because you assumed without any argument that players’ reflexes can’t affect combat, but players’ intelligence can.
 

Lacrymas

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...it doesn't matter how many enemies there are. None of this matters and it's all arbitrary because you've decided F:NV is an RPG and then try to force it to be one. Kind of popamolish if NV and Morrowind are your two most replayed games/"RPGs", though, no wonder you think F:NV is an RPG, but that's neither here nor there.


You: this kind of combat is not cRPG-combat because is not solely determined by stats, since it also involves players’ abilities.

Me: cRPG combat in general involves players’ intelligence, which is also a personal ability.

You: Player’s intelligence is allowed in a cRPG, but not reflexes.

This is pure circular reasoning because you assumed without any argument that players’ reflexes can’t affect combat, but players’ intelligence can.

Seems pretty straightforward to me. No idea what you are talking about. And you are misconstruing my argument, I've said direct control of the character, and then elaborated on the twitch/reflex side, not player's ability.
 

Kyl Von Kull

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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Also, "Action RPG" doesn't tell me anything because by listing all these different games, I don't know what to expect. Is it like Mass Effect or like Morrowind? Or like Gothic? 3 completely different games, yet all are "action RPGs".

That's not specific to action RPGs at all. If I tell you a game is an RPG, does that mean it's like Wizardry or like Champions of Krynn or like Ultima or like Fallout or like Baldur's Gate or like Planescape: Torment? Completely different games, yet all are "RPGs." Bogus argument.
 

Lacrymas

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That's not specific to action RPGs at all. If I tell you a game is an RPG, does that mean it's like Wizardry or like Champions of Krynn or like Ultima or like Fallout or like Baldur's Gate or like Planescape: Torment? Completely different games, yet all are "RPGs." Bogus argument.

No, they aren't completely different games. At most you can say Wizadry and the like are blobbers, but they are still RPGs. As opposed to the umbrella term of "action RPG".
 
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...it doesn't matter how many enemies there are. None of this matters and it's all arbitrary because you've decided F:NV is an RPG and then try to force it to be one. Kind of popamolish if NV and Morrowind are your two most replayed games/"RPGs", though, but that's neither here nor there.
It is the other way around. You decided that the game is not a cRPG a priori based on the appearances and now you are trying to rationalise your way instead of admitting that you are wrong. Saying that FN:V is not a cRPG because it has a FPS engine is like saying that fat women are not real women. Just because it has one feature that is not conducive to good combat doesn’t mean that is not cRPG material. FN:V is very different from Bethesda Fallouts. You can see the negative reactions and their complaints. They hate the stat/skill checks and all the modifications that made the game better. One thing you could criticise is that the big world to explore doesnt go well together with the reactivity. You have to walk a lot to try the different choices.
 

Lacrymas

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No, it isn't a different game than the Bethesda Fallouts. It is a higher quality game, but that's different. I'm also not wrong.
 

Sigourn

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FPS games can have good combat, it just isn't good RPG combat.

That depends. Gothic has a great mix of action and RPG combat. New Vegas could have done the same (for guns), but Obsidian simply inherited what was already in Fallout 3: a very basic system where stats slightly altered gunplay, but altered it nonetheless.
 

Kyl Von Kull

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That's not specific to action RPGs at all. If I tell you a game is an RPG, does that mean it's like Wizardry or like Champions of Krynn or like Ultima or like Fallout or like Baldur's Gate or like Planescape: Torment? Completely different games, yet all are "RPGs." Bogus argument.

No, they aren't completely different games. At most you can say Wizadry and the like are blobbers, but they are still RPGs. As opposed to the umbrella term of "action RPG".

Ugh, jesus. Maybe you're just obtuse, period. There is a lot more variance within my list than within your list of Mass Effect, Morrowind and Gothic: walk around in 1st or 3rd person over-the-shoulder perspective, talk to people, complete quests for them, kill stuff with swords or guns or magic via a more or less clunky action system. Whereas Wizardry and Planescape: Torment might as well be from different planets. One of them is a pure turn-based dungeon crawl, one is as close as it gets to a pure talking simulator with some RTwP combat sprinkled in.

My point is that definitions are inherently imprecise, and action-RPG is no less imprecise than RPG. If anything, the RPG sub-genres all bring much greater clarity. If I tell you that I'm reading a detective novel, does that mean something like Sam Spade or Inspector Poirot or Sherlock Holmes or Nancy Drew? Those are very different stories, yet all are detective fiction.
 

Lacrymas

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Yet we aren't talking about subgenres, but the genre as a whole. If F:NV is an RPG, Wizardry and PS:T, and AoD, and Fallout 1 can't be. If Wizardry, PS:T, AoD and Fallout 1 ARE RPGs, then F:NV can't be one. Easy and straightforward, it's only not straightforwad if you've arbitrarily decided F:NV is an RPG, even though there is no other game that is counted as an RPG that is like F:NV, because "it's much better than Bethesda's Fallouts". Action-RPG is an oxymoron and doesn't exist.
 

Lacrymas

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It's obvious a lot of people have enshrined the thought of F:NV being an RPG for some reason and hold onto it like a sacred artifact, even though it's not different than Bethesda's Fallouts in terms of genre, causing untold buttmadness when someone dares to say it isn't an RPG.
 

Parabalus

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Yet we aren't talking about subgenres, but the genre as a whole. If F:NV is an RPG, Wizardry and PS:T, and AoD, and Fallout 1 can't be. If Wizardry, PS:T, AoD and Fallout 1 ARE RPGs, then F:NV can't be one. Easy and straightforward, it's only not straightforwad if you've arbitrarily decided F:NV is an RPG because "it's much better than Bethesda's Fallouts". Action-RPG is an oxymoron and doesn't exist.

The default definition seems pretty good:

wiki said:
Action role-playing video games (abbreviated action RPG or ARPG) are a subgenre of role-playing video games. The games emphasize real-time combat (where the player has direct control over characters) over turn-based or menu-based combat. These games often use action game combat systems similar to hack and slash or shooter games.


The more twitch and reactions a game needs, the more actioney it is. This isn't a binary, but a continuous scale - if it were binary, Bg and F1 couldn't both be RPGs since Bg is more actioney than F1, you couldn't lump PS:T with the turn based ones like you did.
 

Kyl Von Kull

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If F:NV is an RPG, Wizardry and PS:T, and AoD, and Fallout 1 can't be.

Why not? If F:NV is an RPG, that simply means menu-mediated combat is not the sine qua non of role playing games. Rather, it's one of many desirable but not 100% necessary elements. No reason expanding the definition to include ARPGs would exclude the others. Role playing is not a style of combat.

This has nothing to do with New Vegas specifically and everything to do with thirty years of action RPGs.

I think you need to get some sleep.
 

Lacrymas

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Yet it doesn't say what the difference between hack and slash/shooters and it are. How is it "similar" and how is it "different"?


Why not? If F:NV is an RPG, that simply means menu-mediated combat is not the sine qua non of role playing games. .

No, it means F:NV isn't an RPG. I can say Age of Empires is an RPG, and that that would mean having stats or defined individuals, or whatever else is not the sine qua non of RPGs. See where I'm going with this?
 
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Kyl Von Kull

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No, it means F:NV isn't an RPG. I can say Age of Empires is an RPG, and that that would mean having stats or defined individuals, or whatever else is not the sine qua non of RPGs. See where I'm going with this?

I see where you're going but all of your arguments are circular and self-referential. You never made a case for why menu-mediated combat is the sine qua non of RPGs, you just keep repeating it over and over again in various formulations, some of which are nonsensical.

No one is calling Age of Empires an RPG, whereas action RPGs have been an accepted part of the genre for longer than you've been alive. Also, this is a ridiculous argument for you to be making when your own definition of RPGs would include many strategy games. What else is there to an RPG other than character progression and non-twitch based combat? Let's ask wikipedia!

Role-playing video games use much of the same terminology, settings and game mechanics as early tabletop role-playing games such as Dungeons & Dragons.[2] Players control a central game character, or multiple game characters, usually called a party, and attain victory by completing a series of quests or reaching the conclusion of a central storyline. Players explore a game world, while solving puzzles and engaging in combat. A key feature of the genre is that characters grow in power and abilities, and characters are typically designed by the player.[1] RPGs rarely challenge a player's physical coordination or reaction time, with the exception of action role-playing games.[3]

Role-playing video games typically rely on a highly developed story and setting,[4] which is divided into a number of quests. Players control one or several characters by issuing commands, which are performed by the character at an effectiveness determined by that character's numeric attributes. Often these attributes increase each time a character gains a level, and a character's level goes up each time the player accumulates a certain amount of experience.[5]

Role-playing video games also typically attempt to offer more complex and dynamic character interaction than what is found in other video game genres. This usually involves additional focus on the artificial intelligence and scripted behavior of computer-controlled non-player characters.[3][6]

So an action RPG has action combat, but everything else enumerated above. It's really not that complicated.
 

FreeKaner

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Let's just accept strategy games are better than RPGs and move on. After all RPG genre is derivative of war games, as IE games that sparked this discussion were derivative of RTS games.
 

Lacrymas

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Yes, I have made a case, quite a strong one. By listing various games that have menu-driven combat and saying that that constitutes RPGs, at least in terms of combat. That is how genres are retroactively defined. Yet, F:NV is the only one of its kind in the world that is also "an RPG". This is a joke and obvious bias that no expert in genre (if such a thing exists) is going to accept.
 

FreeKaner

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I am expert in genre and I think New Vegas is a RPG because its direct input to attack is intuitive and it fulfils other criteria but blobbers aren't because they have direct input thus the game is an action game.
 

Kyl Von Kull

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Yes, I have made a case, quite a strong one. By listing various games that have menu-driven combat and saying that that constitutes RPGs, at least in terms of combat. That is how genres are retroactively defined. Yet, F:NV is the only one of its kind in the world that is also "an RPG". This is a joke and obvious bias that no expert in genre (if such a thing exists) is going to accept.

The only one of its kind? You just listed a bunch of action RPGs that aren't really RPGs a couple of pages ago, because the term action RPG is, according to you, an oxymoron. Stop trying to backtrack.

So, you made a list of games with menu driven combat and said this is the nature of an RPG--that's a strong case? Hint: that's not an argument, it's an assertion.

Hey, I made a list of action RPGs and said they ARE RPGs, so that must be a strong case, too. I can't tell if you're serious here or if you're shitposting.
 

Lacrymas

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I have made a loooooooooooooooooooooooooot of arguments, and the only one that was somehow disputed was by FreeKaner where he said my definition is too inclusive and I agreed. I am in the process of adding to my definition. I also made it perfectly clear that "action RPG" is an umbrella term that doesn't mean anything and everything can be lumped into it, making it useless. I listed these "action RPGs" because I know people say these are that, but I couldn't tell you if God of War is an action RPG, or Shadow of Mordor is one, or Far Cry is one, or Jedi Knight is one.
 

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