Review RPG Watch reviews Geneforge 4

[Psilon]

I must admit I quite like olde-style games that have a party based aspect. Is this totally missing from the Geneforge games? In the first one I seem to remember having "shaped" (or whatever they called them) creatures tagging along, but no supplementary chars.

Geneforge 2 and onwards have joinable NPCs, but the only party creation per se is done through Shaping.

 

[Dhruin]

Hippocrap - nice one and good diversionary tactic. Apparently firing up a demo you can't even name for 2 minutes doesn't cut it. And everyone here - even the Spiderweb haters - know it.

I'm not silly enough to type out examples of Vogel's writing - go read my review and otherwise go play GF4 - but I know you're just here for the forum mayhem you like to create and I know better than to engage you in that.

If you continue the discussion, I'd go with criticising the combat because that is a weak point for Spiderweb. Saying the writing sucks and then praising AoD (where the writing is the obvious weak point from what has been shown) just highlights that you are making it up as you go.

Oh - completely off topic but now that I've played Jade Empire it's hilarious to look back on your "Jade Empire is a better RPG than XXX because it has three dialogue skills" arguments. It was pure genius hoodwinking everyone, knowing that a lot of the participants had never actually played Jade Empire and couldn't respond. Well done.

 

[Joe Krow]

I wasn't being disingenuous. I think they suck.

I played GF4 untill the third mine field. My two fellow initiates both died. I'm embarassed to admit playing it at all. How much more should I have endured?

Compare EU1 to EU3. Now compare GF1 to GF4. Are you kidding?

 

[Psilon]

Your fellow initiates getting killed happens during the tutorial, as I recall. It's part of the big run to Southforge Citadel. Bad example.

Besides, have you considered simply going around the mines? Yes, they're overused in the Geneforge games, but it's rarely the case that disarming a minefield is the only way through a chunk of the island. Usually they just guard bonus loot or provide a path for thief characters.

 

[Fez]

EU3 was considered a step backwards for a lot of the fans I find. Those ones prefer EU2.

 

[Volourn]

"Apparently firing up a demo you can't even name for 2 minutes doesn't cut it. And everyone here - even the Spiderweb haters - know it."

I played mroe than 2 minutes. In fact, i gave it a hcance. Even gave some positive feeback for the firts bit. Do a search on the Spiderweb forums for a 'Volourn' for my (few) posts on the game.

I didn't even post much negativity on there; but as soon as the game lost me it lost me permenately.


"Saying the writing sucks and then praising AoD (where the writing is the obvious weak point from what has been shown) just highlights that you are making it up as you go."

What the shit ever. AOD may not have the bestw riting over; but I'd take AOD's writing from what i've seen over the shit that passes as writing from the SW games.

R00fles!


"Oh - completely off topic but now that I've played Jade Empire it's hilarious to look back on your "Jade Empire is a better RPG than XXX because it has three dialogue skills" arguments. It was pure genius hoodwinking everyone, knowing that a lot of the participants had never actually played Jade Empire and couldn't respond. Well done"

How the shit did I hoodwink anyone? Nothing i said about JE could be a lie. It could be cosndiered an opinion you disagree withl; but no lie. JE is better XXX game is true. Afterall, the XXX game could be POR2. Moron.

Why the hell would I play G4 when the demos I played for the games earlier in the series sucked like shit. Considienrg the guy is stuck making sequel after sequel doesn't bode well for him advancing much in the game making skills.

It's funny that the mainstream game companies get shit on for making sequels but the same morons who whine about that will gobble up ANOTHER sequel of such an asanine series.

Me? Sequels are greta if they're for a great series.

L0LLIGAGS!!!

 

[Dhruin]

No, you didn't lie - that's part of the genius. Anyone who has played Jade Empire and looked at the three dialogue skills knows exactly what I mean.

 

[made]

I kinda see Jasede's point.

There is simplistic graphics that still do their job and leave the rest to your imagination. Then there is simplistic graphics that just put you off from playing because you can't ignore how much they suck.

It's a matter of personal preference, I guess.

I haven't played any of the SW games, though, so can't comment on these in particular.

 

[elander_]

I'm afraid that the effect caused by playing games with much more and better graphical detail is unavoidable in the players mind. Once the player is used to graphics like Baldurs Gate and Planescape it's hard to accept simplistic graphics but i can see how players in the time of Commodore and the earlier Amiga days would cry to play a game like this. Once you play the game for more than an hour or something you will get used to graphics and start enjoying the writing and the gameplay. However i agree that the graphics in GF4 are just functional and adequate and not aesthetically pleasing. It would help this game a lot if the graphics were made by a student of art with some experience on pixel art, computer graphics and interface design.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Saying the writing sucks and then praising AoD (where the writing is the obvious weak point from what has been shown) just highlights that you are making it up as you go.

It's THAT horrible? Do explain.

 

[Sisay]

I don't really like the way the series is going after Geneforge 3. They're going away from the open-ended exploration and multiple factions to a more linear progression through the gameworld. This was much better done in Geneforge 4 but still felt limiting. I don't really like the chapters and how you have to make a pro-shaper or a pro-rebel choice at the end of every one of them. It sort of reminds me of KotOR/JE and how every quest had to have a light side and a dark side solution but no shades of gray. On the positive side, there's less of those "oops I was supposed to clear this zone 10 levels ago and now every monster gives 1 exp due to the way the character system works" moments.

The lack of factions and the two-bit choice thing annoy me a lot more than linearity, though. Consider Geneforge where you can help any of the 3 factions, help none and stay truly loyal to the shapers or go crazy on the canisters and the forge and terrorize the country side. Or Geneforge 2 where there's 5 different factions (same 3, the Barzites and the loyal shapers in the small camp). Now there's only 2 and a small hidden faction. The factions and how all of them had skeletons in their closets was the strong point of the first two games for me. A lot of that is lost on the two newer games in the series. I understand a second "more of the same" sequel would've been a bad idea as well but I just don't really like where the series went with 3. Have to agree how starting as a rebel made Geneforge 4 feel fresh, though.

As for the combat, it does depend on which class you play. Shapers probably get the most out of the combat system and the agent gameplay is fairly varied as well but all the guardians do is buff up and use the normal attack ad nauseum. There really should be different attack types or combat skills as already mentioned. And after Geneforge 4, I don't really see why anyone would play a guardian (melee/shaping) instead of the much better servile(melee/spells) class. The bigger problem is probably the huge amount of combat, there's just way too much of it considering the games aren't exactly dungeon crawlers.

Overall Geneforge 4 is in many ways more of the same but still enjoyable and a considerable improvement over Geneforge 3. I'd still recommend the first two games, especially Geneforge instead of skipping straight to 4. One of the things that really impressed me about the original was how the game didn't judge me as a bad person and slap me with a game over screen when I played a power hungry bastard, instead if provided me with a plausible and satisfying ending even for this type of character. The sequels never really managed to capture that. It's probably because the Geneforge endings obviously weren't made with additional sequels in mind, something that seems to plague the endings of the three other games.

 

[Elwro]

Avernum 1 still rocks

QFT.

 

[Roqua]

Saying the writing sucks and then praising AoD (where the writing is the obvious weak point from what has been shown) just highlights that you are making it up as you go.

It's THAT horrible? Do explain.

Come on, you're telling me you don't remember the drama thread where the writing-whores assulated you with an endless barrage of threats that made you get a writer/editor?

The only thing I think Dhruin is wrong in is saying that SW games are known for their poor combat. I think they have poor combat, but I'm kind of a combat-whore. I would take exeption to this if every single bioware game and IE game was known for having the worst combat the universe has ever known. Once that is known by everyone to be true I can see why SW games would be known for having poor combat. But as of right now, the combat in the SW games are as good as any AD&D game made (besides the Buck Rogers games that used modified version of AD&D). Its right there with classics like Dark Sun.

 

[Roqua]

I'm afraid that the effect caused by playing games with much more and better graphical detail is unavoidable in the players mind. Once the player is used to graphics like Baldurs Gate and Planescape it's hard to accept simplistic graphics but i can see how players in the time of Commodore and the earlier Amiga days would cry to play a game like this. Once you play the game for more than an hour or something you will get used to graphics and start enjoying the writing and the gameplay. However i agree that the graphics in GF4 are just functional and adequate and not aesthetically pleasing. It would help this game a lot if the graphics were made by a student of art with some experience on pixel art, computer graphics and interface design.

The same could be said for the effects of growing up playing actual good rpgs, with much more and better gameplay is unavoidable in the players mind. Thats the differece between a graphics-whore and a rpg fan. One values the superficial, the other values the rpg being a good rpg.

 

[Joe Krow]

Thats the differece between being sensible and being a retro rpg fan. One appreciates the whole package, the other will play anything that's turn-based.

Fixed.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Saying the writing sucks and then praising AoD (where the writing is the obvious weak point from what has been shown) just highlights that you are making it up as you go.

It's THAT horrible? Do explain.

Come on, you're telling me you don't remember the drama thread where the writing-whores assulated you with an endless barrage of threats that made you get a writer/editor?

I saw it more as "let's improve", a concept that could be applied to any aspect of the game, than as "my GAWD! i've seen better Sailor Moon fanfiction!". I was just surprised that Dhruin called it "the obvious weak point".

 

[Jed]

Some people are just allergic to good taste.

 

[Roqua]

Thats the differece between being sensible and being a retro rpg fan. One appreciates the whole package, the other will play anything that's turn-based.

Fixed.

So liking and valueing games that value the gameplay experience above superficial nonsense makes me the one without sense or sensibility. That makes perfect sense, if you are retarded. Which, of course, you are. You stupid fuck.

Does the whole package matter with chess? Does the loveliness of the pieces change how good and timeless the game is? Does the fanciness of the cut of board have any impact on the experience? No, only if you are so full of estrogen that form matters over function. The packaging doesn't matter, the dressing doesn't matter, whats inside or underneath the exterior is what matters. You like shit games maade for children with a big clit where there should be a penis. You need to man-up and realise games were ment to be played, not ogled.

If you want to continue being a huge bitch and not try gret games because you are far too superficial, go right ahead. Its your right to be as big of a bitch as you want, you pansy ass fuck, but don't tell us we're wrong because your a big cocksucking mary. Go suck a cock and play Oblivion you mainstream bitch.

 

[Roqua]

Saying the writing sucks and then praising AoD (where the writing is the obvious weak point from what has been shown) just highlights that you are making it up as you go.

It's THAT horrible? Do explain.

Come on, you're telling me you don't remember the drama thread where the writing-whores assulated you with an endless barrage of threats that made you get a writer/editor?

I saw it more as "let's improve", a concept that could be applied to any aspect of the game, than as "my GAWD! i've seen better Sailor Moon fanfiction!". I was just surprised that Dhruin called it "the obvious weak point".

You should re-read the thread. Everyone said the writing was broken. I was the only, or at least one of a very few, people that defended the writing as is. I was actually impressed by it seeing as your a filthy savage who learned english as your third language and moved to a semi-civilized country as an adult. You did better than I could've and I was born into a civilized country and grew up speaking a civilized tongue. I think you should pat yourself on the back. I also think you should release your fucking game already and stop pandering to all the whores that frequent these forums.

 

[Vault Dweller]

You should re-read the thread. Everyone said the writing was broken.

I think that you are exaggerating. My writing isn't perfect and won't get any awards, but it could be hardly described as broken or weak overall.

I was actually impressed by it seeing as your a filthy savage who learned english as your third language and moved to a semi-civilized country as an adult.

Many thanks, Señor Roqua.

You did better than I could've and I was born into a civilized country and grew up speaking a civilized tongue.

It's amazing what one can do when one has neither time nor money to waste.

I think you should pat yourself on the back. I also think you should release your fucking game already and stop pandering to all the whores that frequent these forums.

One day.

 

[Roqua]

You should re-read the thread. Everyone said the writing was broken.

I think that you are exaggerating. My writing isn't perfect and won't get any awards, but it could be hardly described as broken or weak overall.

I was actually impressed by it seeing as your a filthy savage who learned english as your third language and moved to a semi-civilized country as an adult.

Many thanks, Señor Roqua.

You did better than I could've and I was born into a civilized country and grew up speaking a civilized tongue.

It's amazing what one can do when one has neither time nor money to waste.

I think you should pat yourself on the back. I also think you should release your fucking game already and stop pandering to all the whores that frequent these forums.

One day.

I wish I was exaggerating. I never saw anything wrong with the writing at all, if anything I thought it was good. The improvements by the new writer/editor are lost on me. I'm sure they are good, I just really don't (and never did) see a reason to fix something that I never thought to being close to bad or broke, especially if that caused a delay in releasing the game. But everyone else saw so many flaws and thought it was shitty enough that there was a 40k post thread on it that more than proves I am not exaggerating. I don't get it, and I'll never get it, and you might never get it, but the thread is there for all eternity proving that other people saw huge weaknesses in the writing somehow.

 

[Volourn]

"Come on, you're telling me you don't remember the drama thread where the writing-whores assulated you with an endless barrage of threats that made you get a writer/editor?"

They were morons. VD's wriitng that he showed was not perfect; but was far from horrible. Better than most RPGs, and certainly beats the shit out of any SW games' writing. HAHAHAHA!

Ignore the fools, VD. Listen to your Princess.

 

[Admiral Rimjob POOBUM]

Ignore the fools, VD. Listen to your Princess.

This is getting hot.

 

[Fez]

Volourn: Bringing the sexy back to the Codex.

 

[Jasede]

There never was any sexy at the Codex.