Roguey vs the Grognards Thread

[tuluse]

The character system is awful grog shit. OTOH it displays the stat thresholds in dialogue regardless of whether you meet the requirement, it has a somewhat less-chaotic damage system that was made even less chaotic with Dragonfall DC, and it doesn't get excessively fiddly with inventory management.

Based on this shouldn't Wasteland 2 be .5 or like .75 at worst?

 

[Roguey]

Build engine games were extremely awful.

Can you talk about Josh adding combat xp through the bestiary to appease his fan base? Wouldn't this be considered flip flop pandering?

I'd say not. New Vegas had challenges this is like that.

Trap and lock xp is ftl though and I hope the other people at Obsidian championing that lose the debate against Josh.

 

[Roguey]

Based on this shouldn't Wasteland 2 be .5 or like .75 at worst?

Wasteland 2's attribute and skill system off-sets a lot of its good ideas imo. Also weapon jamming, berserk companions.

 

[Immortal]

Build engine games were extremely awful.

Can you talk about Josh adding combat xp through the bestiary to appease his fan base? Wouldn't this be considered flip flop pandering?

I'd say not. New Vegas had challenges this is like that.

Trap and lock xp is ftl though and I hope the other people at Obsidian championing that lose the debate against Josh.

What? Nobody wanted that.. it was his / Obsidians idea. Aren't you following the thread? Everyone else thinks it's a dumb idea.

Fallout:NV had combat XP.. Josh obviously thinks the Bestiary XP isn't needed but is conceding his design to pander to the large amount of pro-comat xper's.

Also why should he forfeit his perfect design to cater to grognards? Didn't you give Brian shit for flip flopping on headshots because people wanted it.

 

[Roguey]

What? Nobody wanted that.. it was his / Obsidians idea. Aren't you following the thread? Everyone else thinks it's a dumb idea.

Yeah, I saw it. And no, he never presented it as his idea. He said they were discussing the possibility. Josh is against rewarding xp for ways and means and I've pasted the quotes to prove it.

Also why should he forfeit his perfect design to cater to grognards? Didn't you give Brian shit for flip flopping on headshots because people wanted it.

Maybe playtesting will prove otherwise, but I don't see this as being detrimental to the game. Moreover, when the first great xp-for-kills debate started, he said that if player behavior/feedback proved that they needed it, they'd add it, but it's far easier to start without it and add it later than it is to start with it and remove it.

 

[DefJam101]

Blood is great. Shadow Warrior is 'kay. Duke 3D is also 'kay though overrated and perhaps offensive to people who lack basic self-awareness and perspective. I would actually appreciate Joshyboy's opinion in this case since unlike his unofficial PR agent Mr. Sawyer has yet to demonstrate to me that he doesn't understand the concept of an action game. Please provide relevant Sawyerquotes, either on the subject of the Build engine games or on John Romero being a coke fiend. Either will do.

edit: is john romero a grognard? hmmm

 

[tuluse]

Based on this shouldn't Wasteland 2 be .5 or like .75 at worst?

Wasteland 2's attribute and skill system off-sets a lot of its good ideas imo. Also weapon jamming, berserk companions.

Weapon jamming is not much different from a pure miss except for the AP needed to clear the jam [on the other hand you don't lose the ammo]. Doesn't seem that groggy to me.

I actually think the beserk companions add spice to the game, but I can see why they're grogtastic.

 

[Roguey]

Blood is great.

Style over substance hitscan shit.

Shadow Warrior is 'kay.

Never played because racist.

Duke 3D is also 'kay though overrated and perhaps offensive to people who lack basic self-awareness and perspective.

I played this when GOG provided it for free, it was very inconsistent and ultimately not that memorable. "Extremely awful" was probably going too far, just mediocre with a 90s tongue-in-cheek macho bro culture style that thankfully died out in the 00s.

I would actually appreciate Joshyboy's opinion in this case since unlike his unofficial PR agent Mr. Sawyer has yet to demonstrate to me that he doesn't understand the concept of an action game. Please provide relevant Sawyerquotes, either on the subject of the Build engine games or on John Romero being a coke fiend. Either will do.

edit: is john romero a grognard? hmmm

Josh and John literally worked together on Gauntlet: Seven Sorrows. All their stuff was ultimately thrown out.

 

[Nikaido]

That could be for a million different reasons. If it's about the original falouts, and if it's about turn based vs pause/unpause mode - fallout's problem wasn't that it was turnbased but that it revolved around shooting guns. It's hard to have compelling and enjoyable combat where all the participants basically only have direct damage spells and nothing else.

Geez laweez, even Counter Strike has more variety in its gunplay than Fallout : it has smoke grenades. And Fallout is in a setting that could allow for a lot of tools that would have AoE effects not unlike a few fantasy spells.
Fallout's combat is mediocre because its developers were unimaginative. That is all. In a world that has energy weapons and the like, you can't imagine things that do stuff other than direct damage, really? the real world itself has so many things that can incapacitate people without outright blowing them up. World War 1 was filled with the use of gases that under RPG spreg terms could be called.. debuffs. What is the combat effectiveness of a crowd that breathes the fumes of mustard gas? or, more immediate and intense effect, modern tear gas? And yet RPGs that have guns can't be more than "click that enemy to shoot him in the head/eye"? really?

Fallout barely touched what could be done in a setting like its own. It shows some awareness but only pays lip service to it (like having EMP grenades that deals damage to robots).

Guns should never be used as an excuse for mediocre "click this guy to death" gameplay in a RPG.

 

[Immortal]

What? Nobody wanted that.. it was his / Obsidians idea. Aren't you following the thread? Everyone else thinks it's a dumb idea.

Yeah, I saw it. And no, he never presented it as his idea. He said they were discussing the possibility. Josh is against rewarding xp for ways and means and I've pasted the quotes to prove it.

Also why should he forfeit his perfect design to cater to grognards? Didn't you give Brian shit for flip flopping on headshots because people wanted it.

Maybe playtesting will prove otherwise, but I don't see this as being detrimental to the game. Moreover, when the first great xp-for-kills debate started, he said that if player behavior/feedback proved that they needed it, they'd add it, but it's far easier to start without it and add it later than it is to start with it and remove it.

Right he hates rewarding ways and means which is why I said that he is forfeiting his vision to appease the Grognards.. How is my statement wrong..

Also, I didn't ask what you thought was detrimental to this game.. I am wondering how you rationalize that Brian flip flopping a feature is a failure in design in response to fan feedback but Josh can do the same thing and it's his genius mastermind at work..
Josh obviously thinks the bestiary and lock picking / trap clearing methods are degenerative (ways and means) but he is catering to the crowd that wants these features. ( I would like to point out that almost NOBODY wanted trap/lock xp rewards and that Josh is using this as a band aid to avoid doing outright combat xp.. He just wants to look for an excuse to stagger xp in a modular way that doesn't require level editors to do a retake on all the quests they have finished and tested)

Are you trolling or being hypocritical?

 

[Lujo]

I with people who like actual RPG's

Like HoM&M IV ?

That was just to illustrate the point that there simply aren't enough TB RPGs out there to base an opionion on TB RPG's on. As far as having turn based combat with interesting abilities on controlable henchmen HoM&M IV is proof that it's quite possible, and while that game is a strategy game it actually playes more like an RPG than most hack and slash crap does. Or most TB RPG'S.

Most isometric / 3d TB RPG's have all had flaws unrelated to their TBness - ToEE is slave to a godawful (in hindsight) system, and Fallout is slave to a really TB unfriendly flavor (TB lives off "magic", being limited to physical abilities gimps you hard). Nikaido And yeah, you could replicate it, but it had such a silly structure which mandated high tech being obscure or relegated to late game, that you'd need actual magic for the early game to have such abilities. So yeah, tons of different peashooters with different artwork all doing the same thing, it blows.

Which is why I'm sad Dragonfall was handled by the guys who made it - that setting can actually make anything work. Shame it's only 0.5 as Roguey said - there's too many things which are slave to conventions there but are clashing with user and developer friendly gameplay (tying the reputations to a single atributte, ridiculous scaling costs on skill advancement, excuse for a quest hub and being about 10 or so missions short of having an engrossing narrative and 15 from being worthy of release).

 

[Nikaido]

I was only quoting a part of your post, you don't need to continue a defense of TB because I am very much in the pro-TB camp. I was just making the point that FO's mediocre combat isn't only a gun issue.

Also, making incapacitative gases isn't really high tech. For that matter you can make some pretty nasty stuff at home too.

 

[Lujo]

^ Ha, ha I know, just saying that basing oppinions about TB based on experience with Fallout in particular is not very good. But, we've just shaken the godawful legacy of the graphics leap to isometry from a decade ago whereupon some clown decided that the bg bullshit was a good idea - who knows, maybe some decent RPGs do get made in the future?

 

[DefJam101]

Blood is great.

Style over substance hitscan shit.

See I specifically requested Sawyerquotes because when you try to talk about action games you say embarrassing things like this.

I feel if he applied himself Sawyer could design a great competitive FPS. At lot of the dumb shit he says about CRPGs is smart shit I wish developers would say about multiplayer shooters. He might have trouble understanding the role of intentional map imbalance and why that creates interesting play, but with a Sensuki or two on the case I'm sure he could be swayed.

 

[Roguey]

Enemies who immediately hit you as soon as they come up on your screen are extremely ftl. Doom had a few of these, but they were relatively weak and not obnoxiously overused, unlike Blood's.

Right he hates rewarding ways and means which is why I said that he is forfeiting his vision to appease the Grognards.. How is my statement wrong..

As far I'm concerned, he isn't.

Also, I didn't ask what you thought was detrimental to this game.. I am wondering how you rationalize that Brian flip flopping a feature is a failure in design in response to fan feedback but Josh can do the same thing and it's his genius mastermind at work..

Brian: "We're not going to include this feature if it's literally just less accuracy for more damage."
*puts in a headshot that does more damage for less accuracy*

Josh: We're not going to award you systematic xp per kill unless we feel it's necessary.
*awards xp for unlocking bestiary entries, which requires killing multiple groups*

It's like those MMO quests, kill x amount of y only they're not specifically calling it a quest.

 

[Immortal]

Enemies who immediately hit you as soon as they come up on your screen are extremely ftl. Doom had a few of these, but they were relatively weak and not obnoxiously overused, unlike Blood's.

Right he hates rewarding ways and means which is why I said that he is forfeiting his vision to appease the Grognards.. How is my statement wrong..

As far I'm concerned, he isn't.

Also, I didn't ask what you thought was detrimental to this game.. I am wondering how you rationalize that Brian flip flopping a feature is a failure in design in response to fan feedback but Josh can do the same thing and it's his genius mastermind at work..

Brian: "We're not going to include this feature if it's literally just less accuracy for more damage."
*puts in a headshot that does more damage for less accuracy*

Josh: We're not going to award you systematic xp per kill unless we feel it's necessary.
*awards xp for unlocking bestiary entries, which requires killing multiple groups*

It's like those MMO quests, kill x amount of y only they're not specifically calling it a quest.

But in the same quote that he tells us about the change he clearly says the game doesn't need this feature to achieve the goal he wants for it, but he feels adding it will make people happy who want exp for killing things..

I think it will be good for the game if a player can ask themselves, "Am I losing out by not completing this area with combat?" and sometimes answer, "Nah." Quest only XP accomplishes this, but obviously a lot of people want to gain XP from fighting. Short of having a separate mode where you get combat XP from everything and all of the quest XP is rebalanced around that, bestiary unlocking XP is the best solution I've come up with to accomplish both goals.

Further emphasis can be found here.. He will choose a design he doesn't like if it means catering to the audience he is making the game for.. (1/2 Roguey's and 1/2 Grognards). It's no different with Brian implementing a feature he didn't feel was necessary but saw people wanted.

There goes the whole "I won't implement degenerative gameplay elements just because people want them"

I'm pretty easy-going about mechanics in the things that I play and it's not uncommon for me to implement mechanics I personally do not like if I feel they will improve the game overall. Most of the design choices I make focus on trying to produce a great experience for the audience, varied as they often are.

 

[Roguey]

He already explained how it wasn't degenerate in that thread.

You sure are in a tizzy about acceptable compromises.

 

[Immortal]

He already explained how it wasn't degenerate in that thread.

You sure are in a tizzy about acceptable compromises.

It was degenerate game play until he said it wasn't ? I'm not in a tizzy.. I am following the thread topic..

How is it okay for him to flip flop when Brian can't..? Missed that part.

 

[Roguey]

I think there's a significant difference between being required to kill 100% of all ogres to get all XP from ogre killing and being required to kill 50% of all ogres. You can skip individual ogres, groups of ogres, named ogres on quests, and still gain all of the XP.

As for your second question, I already spelled it out, I can't understand it for you.

 

[Immortal]

I think there's a significant difference between being required to kill 100% of all ogres to get all XP from ogre killing and being required to kill 50% of all ogres. You can skip individual ogres, groups of ogres, named ogres on quests, and still gain all of the XP.

As for your second question, I already spelled it out, I can't understand it for you.

Why do we need xp for filling out the bestiary if the combat is engaging on it's own?

There's an idea I don't subscribe to -- that players need to be given tiny rewards for everything they do. If your gameplay is actually fun, you shouldn't need to bribe them! When gameplay simply becomes drudgery motivated by a desire to gain a bonus that makes the gameplay easier, I feel that we have failed as designers.

 

[Roguey]

Because a lot of people cry and scream when they don't get the periodic illusion of a reward.

 

[drae]

SRR managed no combat XP fairly decently - I don't remember many people crying and screaming. I suppose they succeeded at making a fun combat system and didn't need to participate in bribery *shrugs*

 

[Immortal]

Why do we need xp for filling out the bestiary if the combat is engaging on it's own?

Because a lot of people cry and scream when they don't get the periodic illusion of a reward.

Right he hates rewarding ways and means which is why I said that he is forfeiting his vision to appease the Grognards.. How is my statement wrong..

As far I'm concerned, he isn't.

Are you trolling or being hypocritical?

Spoiler

 

[Lhynn]

Obsidian made it clear in their Kickstarter pitch that they were making a new RPG system. If anyone thought they were going to do what Pierre Begue did and slightly modify 3.5, that's on them.

I dont give a shit about the system as long as it doesnt suck, this one is shit from the ground up.

 

[Roguey]

Completing quests also gives you the periodic illusion of a reward, yet it is not degenerate.

SRR managed no combat XP fairly decently - I don't remember many people crying and screaming. I suppose they succeeded at making a fun combat system and didn't need to participate in bribery *shrugs*

No one complained because SRR had no levels and getting xp immediately allows you to improve your statistics, so getting it all the time is unfeasible.

Bloodlines combat was extraordinarily terrible, but few complained about the absence of kill-xp for the same reasons.