Resting in cRPGs

[Regdar]

So this is something that has bothered me ever since I played my first D&D based cRPG, Icewind Dale. Resting in dangerous areas like the wilderness is fine and all, but what about when you're storming the Castle of Doom(tm), and decide to take an 8-hour nap or four?

First is, of course, adherence to PnP rules, where (IIRC) inside dungeons, you could only rest within rooms that had doors which could be locked or magically sealed, or if you placed special magic wards that would alert you to approaching enemies. Otherwise you could wake up to find your throat slit by a bunch of goblins. Is it really so hard to add a Private Sanctum or Faithful Hound spell to the game?

Famous last words:

Second, there's an obvious issue with realism. Like, when you kill every patrol around said castle and decide to rest a bit. No one inside is bothered by absence of patrols or reports? Replacements aren't sent out, nor does the castle look like it's alarmed in any way. This is further complicated by the fact that unless you tick the appropriate box in the config, resting will automatically be "rest until healed" and take 16 to 32 hours. 32 hours since patrols have mysteriously vanished, leaving behind some naked corpses, completely stripped of their equipment. Where did they go, I wonder?

"Deserters", thought the orc lieutenant Grugnuk.

The third issue is time-related. You basically have an infinite amount of time to accomplish your task of thwarting evil and saving the world, while the bad guys are always preoccupied with amassing armies and searching for artifacts of immeasurable power. By the time you confront them, however, whether it's 40 or 240 days after you quest has begun, their plans have magically clicked into place and suddenly their demonic hordes are ready to march (or teleport) on your beloved town/world. I understand that making the very thing you've fought to protect the battleground for your final battle with all that seeks to harm it is a common tool for creating dramatic effect, but sometimes it just feels so... contrived.

Furthermore, resting is very closely tied with memorizing spells and replenishing charges in magic items. I think it's safe to say that without the need fore memorizing spells, resting outside of towns and inns would become obsolete. Also, it certainly feels a little contrived when wizards have an array of spells written in their spellbook, and over the course of the game they memorized each one of them individually, just never at the same time, as if through some kind of rigorous brain gymnastics they have gained the ability to forget things to make room for others, and it's never fully explained why a such a powerful scholar doesn't have the mental capacity to learn all of his spells in the first place.

This is also why I think sorcerers are the true (ok, ok, maybe not "true", but certainly more realistic) arcane spellcasting class in the game. You know a certain amount of spells and you can unleash them at will until your mana spells per day run out. The only thing wizards have going for them, then, is their bonus feats and item creation capabilities.

And this led me thinking - why do people criticize 4th edition's once-per-encounter spells and abilities? Short of adding a mana pool for casters and a rage/focus bar for fighters (perish the thought), this is probably the best way of going about reducing the amount of resting needed inside dangerous dungeons, where resting is both illogical and unrealistic. And I know they streamlined the planescape and gave fighters an MMOish "Taunt" skill and that's fucking stupid, but specifically on the point of eliminating resting where it doesn't belong, I think they did a good job.

So yeah, as far as cRPGs go, this has led me to sort of race against the clock, even though there's obviously no obligation to do so. Maybe it's the OCD that's getting to me, but I firmly believe that I'm doing it for an added challenge (and for added realism).

What do you think, Codex?

 

[FatCat]

Old tale of Realism vs Convenience.
Realism is often sacrificed for balanced gameplay (wizard spells).
Resting is optional so if you want added challenge LARP.

 

[Gord]

I remember resting being restricted (esp. in castles/dungeons/places where it didn't make sense) in a lot of the D&D games, more so on older ones, I guess (In BG2 resting became obsolete once you gained the (Higher?) Wish spell...).

Situation is further complicated due to the high amount of combat in typical cRPGs. Would you only have a few select (but higher quality) combat encounters you wouldn't have to rest as much anyway. And you wouldn't have as much stupid filler combat.

As for your complaint about time restrictions, I think it boils down to lazy design in most games.
Whether it's because devs are afraid that they will frustrate slow players (because they might end up in a situation where losing becomes inevitable) or because it's too difficult to implement in a linear story, I don't know. Both problems can be solved, though.
Fallout did it reasonably well, sporting time limits that are big enough for you not to feel too much need for rushing but leading to some real consequences if you spend too much time on your journey.
Anyway I don't like it either that the whole world tends to revolve around the player.

 

[CorpseZeb]

Well, you cant really talk about “realism” in world full of magic and magicians. I rather say, it is “challenge vs convenience”. Do you prepare right combination of spells for your cleric before resting – is question about proper strategy which add another layer of fun to the gameplay. Challenge is fun, convenience is just boring.

 

[laclongquan]

Resting is a free action to regain lots of resources: mana, spell memorization, HP, status even. Which is particularly asinine and balance-breaking. So game devs try to rebalance it by introducing more restus interruptus combats. Joy, more fillers.

JA2 address this problem quite well: You can bandage your wounds to a state of quasi-healthy and keep functioning for a time. Sleeps, which are free, heal your wounds a little. Real cures are a hospital stays, which cost money and the loss of that patient's service during that time. So it doesnt feel cheating to sleep or go to hospital.

Apply that method to magic setting is not too hard if game devs ever bother: bandage, Cure/Heal spells, only temporarily disable wounds and only a Temple lengthy rests can really heal?

 

[Johannes]

Resting is a free action to regain lots of resources: mana, spell memorization, HP, status even. Which is particularly asinine and balance-breaking. So game devs try to rebalance it by introducing more restus interruptus combats. Joy, more fillers.

JA2 address this problem quite well: You can bandage your wounds to a state of quasi-healthy and keep functioning for a time. Sleeps, which are free, heal your wounds a little. Real cures are a hospital stays, which cost money and the loss of that patient's service during that time. So it doesnt feel cheating to sleep or go to hospital.

And more importantly, in JA2 time actually matters. You have to pay your mercs, the enemy gains more troops as time goes by, so you have an incentive tp push forward as efficiently as you can.
Though it is possible to just sit on your ass and pile up money too, since defending isn't that hard in the end, and gives you more loot/xp.

 

[laclongquan]

Look, the damn problem is mostly on game devs' shoulder. They seem to feel making game too hard will scare off players or soemthing. Resting is an important action that should cost resources. If they do that, golds will actually mean something not just a meaningless number in character's coffer.

How many times have you heard gamers lamenting the fact that they have too much golds and not enough things to spend on?

 

[Regdar]

Old tale of Realism vs Convenience.
Realism is often sacrificed for balanced gameplay (wizard spells).
Resting is optional so if you want added challenge LARP.

But resting isn't optional in D&D, is it? In a typical campaign setting, you fight hordes of monsters in a single dungeon. Dozens of encounters, each one providing a challenge to a group of four characters. They add up pretty quickly, and you find yourself in need of replenishing spells several times over the course of the dungeon.

And the problem with frequent resting is greatly inflated at low levels, where a single well-placed Sleep spell can make you come out of an encounter unscathed. Conversely, having a couple of goblins resist your Sleep can put you in a world of trouble, such that your healer with his two Cure Light Wounds spells won't be able to bring the party back to full health. In a cRPG, this just means quicksaving before the next fight and hoping for your fighters to carry you through with good attack rolls. In tabletop, you immediately need to rest for fear of dying and losing your character. The next encounter can be a complete deja vu, and you need to rest again.

I greatly favor low-level campaigns over high-level ones, but I believe 3 should be the starting level for most adventures. Or at least bringing the party up to level 3 through social quests.

By the way, the Sleep analogy also shows how the wizards' fabled "flexibility" can't deal with situations where certain spells are more useful than others, like Sleep is on lower levels for example. It's common practice for people to give wizards, clerics and druids at least one of each spell they would consider even remotely useful for an upcoming encounter (maybe two on higher levels). The biggest problem here, I believe, is that clerics and druids have a way to convert bad spell decisions into good ones, while wizards do not.

I do get the "sacrifice realism for balance" argument. I'm not arguing that AC is not a valid representation of a character's defensive capabilities and that they should be 4 separate %-based rolls derived from the characters stats and equipment. However, the resting and spell memorizing mechanics always felt like the most arbitrary and contrived ones in all D&D, especially since they can be avoided so easily. It makes me wonder a little bit, if by introducing Sorcerers in 3 ed. WOTC weren't thinking the same thing, as I'm sure a lot of people have thought of this before me.

The most obvious (and simplest) solution to the resting problem would be to introduce a time limit on completing objectives in IWD, ToEE and similar games. Say, a 10-day limit on clearing out the goblin fortress, considering travel there takes 3 days. You have ample time for resting, but not completely retarded shit like exiting the fortress halfway through slaughtering all of its inhabitants to sell the loot in town (although this is a compromise; I'd much rather prefer it to be like 5 days in the previous example).

In ToEE, clearing out 3 levels of the temple, then going back to Hommlet to rest for 18 days and crafting some l33t items is common thing to do, from what I've read. And certainly, if you enter the temple at level 6 you haven't had the opportunity to craft some of the more powerful equipment, so in a way, the game encourages you to do so.

Some minor spoilers following if you haven't finished ToEE.

After rescuing the prince from the temple he says that he'll reward you. Well, I never got any reward and was wondering if it was one of the things cut from the final game, so I fired up a walkthrough and find out that you can the reward (which is insane - 50000 gold or the like and a sword that never misses and gets unlimited attacks of opportunity against attackers), but get this - to get it you have to wait around for 30 (!!!) days and then travel between Hommlet and Nulb hoping for a random encounter with a messenger who will give you this stuff.

Now, besides the fact that this is impossible to figure out on your own, thirty days from the moment you rescue the prince is thirty days since you have rid the first 2 levels of the temple of all life. And sure enough, when you come back, nothing has changed.

I understand that during development there are time constraints (unlike in the games ,eh) and pressure and lack of resources and all that shit. This is basically me ranting about minor flaws and inconsistencies in some of the best games out there. If something like IWD or ToEE was released now I'd come all over my monitor and deny ever having posted this blasphemous crap.

I'm just interested if this is something other people have thought about, and if something like this is even acceptable for a intellectually-stimulating discussion on the Codex.

 

[Gord]

JA2 address this problem quite well: You can bandage your wounds to a state of quasi-healthy and keep functioning for a time. Sleeps, which are free, heal your wounds a little. Real cures are a hospital stays, which cost money and the loss of that patient's service during that time. So it doesnt feel cheating to sleep or go to hospital.

Apply that method to magic setting is not too hard if game devs ever bother: bandage, Cure/Heal spells, only temporarily disable wounds and only a Temple lengthy rests can really heal?

It's also a game with a completely different scope and focus than an average RPG.
To me at least it doesn't sound particularly fun if half of the party has to spend a week in the temple after every major combat encounter.
In JA2 it did work, but because you have enough mercs to fill the gap of your wounded ones.

Not all rpgs use the overpowered rest system of D&D cRPGs, though. The old RoA series used the Dark Eye PnP system, meaning you would regenerate only something like W6 HP/Mana on resting and you'd also need to spend some food/water (which you could find using hunting, survival, etc.). Spells were mana based, too, so no instant regaining of all your spells on resting.
Drakensang of course went the aRPG route and ditched resting completely in favour of auto-regen - which is probably better considering the amount of combat in the games.

 

[Hobo Elf]

But resting isn't optional in D&D, is it?

Rope trick and pocket dimension say hello. Rope trick is a level 2 Wizard and Sorcerer spell too. You get it super early.

 

[Regdar]

Resting is a free action to regain lots of resources: mana, spell memorization, HP, status even. Which is particularly asinine and balance-breaking. So game devs try to rebalance it by introducing more restus interruptus combats. Joy, more fillers.

JA2 address this problem quite well: You can bandage your wounds to a state of quasi-healthy and keep functioning for a time. Sleeps, which are free, heal your wounds a little. Real cures are a hospital stays, which cost money and the loss of that patient's service during that time. So it doesnt feel cheating to sleep or go to hospital.

Apply that method to magic setting is not too hard if game devs ever bother: bandage, Cure/Heal spells, only temporarily disable wounds and only a Temple lengthy rests can really heal?

Very good point, which I forgot to make in regards to IE games, where anything short of a True Resurrection spell can be supplied by the party cleric, which makes temples and their healing services redundant. And you don't let you party members die in the middle of a dungeon anyway. Why? Just quickload ffs.

And it's worse in IWD2. Since poison and disease no longer do hit point damage in 3 Ed., it's only a matter of having a cleric or druid of a high enough level. Don't have those because you went with a 3 figher/3 sorcerer group? No problem! Ability damage from natural sources heals over time, so whenever you get diseased and fail multiple saving throws in a row resulting in 1 STR, just rest for a week and it'll go away. And don't do it in an inn where it costs 2 gold a night, sleep in an abandoned warehouse for a week and all your diseases will go away. Of course you'd have to go back to town for that, but no worries - the monsters aren't going anywhere.

As for your complaint about time restrictions, I think it boils down to lazy design in most games.
Whether it's because devs are afraid that they will frustrate slow players (because they might end up in a situation where losing becomes inevitable) or because it's too difficult to implement in a linear story, I don't know. Both problems can be solved, though.
Fallout did it reasonably well, sporting time limits that are big enough for you not to feel too much need for rushing but leading to some real consequences if you spend too much time on your journey.
Anyway I don't like it either that the whole world tends to revolve around the player.

I foolishly failed to mention Fallout in my rant about time restrictions as an example of a game where time restriction is done really well. And a logical in-game way to effectively remove the time limit, while still preserving enough sense of urgency to make players actually interested in how long journey from A to B will take? Awesome.

Rope trick and pocket dimension say hello. Rope trick is a level 2 Wizard and Sorcerer spell too. You get it super early.

IIRC those spells say nothing about the time flow on the Material Plane compared to where the party is. So, that doesn't really help. Plus, it lasts for 1 hour per level so you won't be able to get a full night's sleep in it until level 8 unless you have metamagic feats.

My biggest gripe with resting in dungeons is how enemies don't react to your Rambo-esque entrance into their compound and subsequent indiscriminatory slaughter of its inhabitants, halfway through which you decide to take a nap or better yet - take your loot back to town to sell it. And all the orcs you haven't murdered yet decide that they should just stick to their posts while management sorts this one out.

And anyway, the main point I'm trying to make is in regards to cRPGs, not PnP.

 

[octavius]

Personally I think the spell memorization and resting mechanics work very well in the old GB and IE games, at least they do for my play style.

I try to role play the games, thinking "what would a "real" adventurer party do"?
They would try do complete missions using the least amount of time, spells and potions, while at the same time not take any needless risks. And they would need 8 hours of sleep each day. And the fighters and theives would not have the patience to sit around in a dungeon several days in a row while the mages study their books and the clerics pray.

So that means setting up some ground rules and follow them:
Sleep about 8 hours a day if possible, or as much as you need to memorize the highest level spells.
Unless in pursuit of enemies or in large caverns, use Search mode in dungeons to lower chances of being surprised by enemies of traps. Using Search mode takes 10 times longer than normal mode, so we can rest more often. Only rest in rooms which the game says are safe, rest in rooms that "should" be safe or only rest after a level has been cleared of patrols/random encounters (I love PoR and Curse of Azure Bonds for having a finite amount of those).

Spell memorization adds more of a strategic level to the game, since you need to anticipate what you'll need. That is a good thing, but it also means you will end up only using a fraction of the available spells, since the chance of needing for example Snake Charm is so small.
Also, in games where your advantures lead you to slums or sewers of a city, like for example in Pool of Radiance, I think the best way of healing the party is to go back to the city and use Temple services to heal the wounds, instead of using days of game time to rest and heal. The healing takes no time and you have something to spend the gazillion copper coins you accumulate. And your cleric(s) can save their spell slots for other spells or only use the healing spells in emergency.

But in the end, in a single player game there is no "correct" way of playing a game. But personally I find most CRPG more enjoyable if I role play them instead of trying to use every trick to beat the game engine.

 

[Phelot]

It shouldn't be a problem if Ye Olden Temple of Terror wasn't an 8 hour long grindfest with legions of baddies to kill. Reasonably, you should be able to rest outside a dungeon and be able to clear said dungeon from that rest. At least, that's how many encounters would be in PnP. Just a few baddies to give you a run for your money.

If it's some epic sized dungeon then certainly it is reasonable to rest in a out of the way part away from the denizens, but perhaps with a watch system.

 

[Luzur]

i think it should be possible to rest too much and let the bad guys win.

 

[Jaesun]

I think the Gold Box Games handled resting perfect. You had to find a room that was defensible, and they were (usually) rare to find.

Also The Realm Series for FRUA by Ray Dyer is sometimes fucking hardcore. He uses the same concept, but you can only rest once in such rooms. LOVE it!

 

[laclongquan]

Look the economic aspect is there in the game engine. But do them game devs make use of it?

Baldur's Gate: You can pay through the nose for some cure heal in temple. Too bad you could camp in the open instead. Or pay the dirt cheap price in the Inn. Those Inn prices should be skyhigh, or at least realistic. But oh noes, should not force players pay more than a handful of coins or they will be bored. Bah.

IIRC, there's a priest spell, in PnP settings, that act as sentry or sanctuary or something that allow party to rest in the wild. Not uninterrupted, mind you, but if they sleep a full sleep they get a good rest. THAT force you dedicate a priest's spell slot to that spell AND be logical. Why? Because in the wild you need to station one sentry to guard your party sleep during these constant night activities. The spell can help sentry or help the sleepers sleep better or something. It would have been logical. And the price is reasonable: a daily spell from your priest or magician.

That solve the sleep-in-the-wild situation. As for wounds, make sure that tools to heal actually cost something (Inn rest or Temple stay).

I can think of a mod: in this mod it increase the price of Inn to ten times its usual cost, and add some variables into wild-rest to make they are constantly interrupted. That could be a feature in game difficulty option, 'Costly Rest' or something.

 

[Regdar]

I think the Gold Box Games handled resting perfect. You had to find a room that was defensible, and they were (usually) rare to find.

Also The Realm Series for FRUA by Ray Dyer is sometimes fucking hardcore. He uses the same concept, but you can only rest once in such rooms. LOVE it!

I'm ashamed to say I haven't played Gold Box yet (or Wizardry for that matter), but by God, I shall.

Just as soon as I finish up with Black Isle/Troika games on my list.

 

[Jaesun]

I'm ashamed to say I haven't played Gold Box yet (or Wizardry for that matter), but by God, I shall.

Just as soon as I finish up with Black Isle/Troika games on my list.

I recommend to start with:

Gold Box Games: Pool of Radiance

Wizardry: Wizardry VI (So you can get the ring).

Prepare to fucking INCLINE.

 

[jancobblepot]

A PC will not heal himself if he's dead from starvation.

 

[Excidium]

Resting for hours inside the enemy base is kinda retarded, it only has place in D&D and other similar games because of the spellcasting system.

 

[Surf Solar]

Haha, just a few days ago I was at the same spot and wondered if I should risk it. Naturally, my party got raped during sleep (I already wasted all my spells and got pretty low HP). I liked this much more than the "lol let's take a nap in the lions cave, kthxbai" and the usual savescumming connected to it.

As for other RPG, I prefer the way Jaesun suggested, to only allow it in places which are easy to defend , not in the middle of the fucking wildlife..

 

[Phelot]

As for other RPG, I prefer the way Jaesun suggested, to only allow it in places which are easy to defend , not in the middle of the fucking wildlife..

Yes, as long as it is a "neutral" dungeon, that is a place that isn't on full alert or has bands of intelligent creatures that consider the dungeon their home. If it's some fortress filled with humans than defensive position or not, resting shouldn't be allowed. I mean, it's stupid to think about guys taking a nap while the entire base is being gathered at that one particular "defensive" door.

 

[PorkaMorka]

Resting is more of a CRPG problem than a D&D problem.

Unless you have a really terrible DM you're generally not going to be resting in the middle of invading an evil temple, nor is it going to be easy to abandon your invasion of the evil temple part way through, hike back to town to heal for a week, then pick up exactly where you left off.

This adds a resource management element to the game, as you get worn down by encounters and have to conserve your available spells, hps, items.

The technology exists to make CRPGs work the same way, the devs are generally just too lazy to deal with these issues.

 

[Damned Registrations]

It's also fairly retarded to invade an evil temple and only encounter enemies in manageable group sizes until you've cleared the whole place. Logically, at least 1 guy is going to escape, alert EVERY fucker with a weapon in the entire place, and they'll show up as one unit and crush you.

This is assuming they didn't have someone spot you before you even entered the fortress/temple/cavern/whatever and are waiting for you just inside the entrance. Also significantly retarded is the concept of putting a trap on a door orpart of a room or hallway without any guards nearby to follow up. Obviously the entire point of such a trap is to gimp someone so you can finish them off while you have an advantage, not inconvenience them by forcing them to recover before proceeding onwards towards your guardpost.

 

[jancobblepot]

Also significantly retarded is the concept of putting a trap on a door orpart of a room or hallway without any guards nearby to follow up. Obviously the entire point of such a trap is to gimp someone so you can finish them off while you have an advantage, not inconvenience them by forcing them to recover before proceeding onwards towards your guardpost.

Supposedly, most people should die in those traps. If not, a trapped person will never return to loot that place, he will be scared as fuck.

But thanks to savescumming and overpowered healing spells, those traps are useless.