Removing quantitative descriptions

[J1M]

No, but it makes dealing with items way more interesting than "Found a +3 sword...+3 sword is better than +2 sword! I will sell +2 sword to next vendor I meet"

Ahh, but the +3 and +2 represent your character's or an NPC's appraisal of the item. Reading a description box and deciding its worth is using player knowledge. So really, +3 sword is a more true roleplaying experience.

 

[mondblut]

Indeed, deciding which sword to sell to next vendor you meet based on 2 pages of incredibly dull fantasy fanfic is SO much better

 

[DraQ]

Why not display or hide certain details like wear marks on the actual in-game model depending on character's knowledge, be able to check how well does it swing, and have similarly filtered textual descriptions for less visual things?

Why not integrate what you see with what game's engine thinks?

 

[J1M]

Why not display or hide certain details like wear marks on the actual in-game model depending on character's knowledge, be able to check how well does it swing, and have similarly filtered textual descriptions for less visual things?

Why not integrate what you see with what game's engine thinks?

The numbers you see for damage are what the character thinks the damage is. It just happens to be very accurate. But since you are just a lazy computer gamer and not an excellent warrior you aren't really in a position to question the authority of those numbers your party member is telling you.

 

[Zeus]

The numbers you see for damage are what the character thinks the damage is. It just happens to be very accurate.

Ahh, but if THAT'S true, then why is a level one warrior every bit as perceptive in judging a weapon's quality as a seasoned veteran?

Also, it doesn't take personal bias into account. A character who specializes in axes wouldn't think very much of a broadsword; he certainly wouldn't hold it in the same esteem as his "+5" axe.

And then there are wizards, who wouldn't know a damn thing about swords to begin with. So why would He of the Pointed Hat and Grandma's Dress be able to look at a "+5" broadsword and instantly, accurately assess its quality as a weapon?

 

[Clockwork Knight]

Indeed, deciding which sword to sell to next vendor you meet based on 2 pages of incredibly dull fantasy fanfic is SO much better

Actually, what I meant is that removing the numbers and putting in descriptions forces you to use the weapons for a while, to see if they are worth keeping instead of instantly throwing them into the vendor trash bin.

Reading the descriptions is optional. Btw, I didn't mean fanfics - which wouldn't help deciding what to use, anyway - , I was thinking of actual, but not so exact descriptions - "good condition" , "causes frostburns", "can be used in X way" etc. Something that makes me look at it for more than 0.3 seconds - the time necessary to look at my current weapon's stats and notice the numbers are bigger.

Ahh, but the +3 and +2 represent your character's or an NPC's appraisal of the item. Reading a description box and deciding its worth is using player knowledge. So really, +3 sword is a more true roleplaying experience.

So, a quest compass would be the character constantly checking the map and reading it in place of the player?

The numbers you see for damage are what the character thinks the damage is. It just happens to be very accurate.

WAY too accurate. Only a machine would be able to see if something is in 87% or 86% condition.

something like "looks alright, except for two cracks on the handle" would be a nice compromise between charcter and player skill.

Other example: "2d6 fire damage" vs "Ignites the target, causing strong burns"

 

[J1M]

The numbers you see for damage are what the character thinks the damage is. It just happens to be very accurate.

Ahh, but if THAT'S true, then why is a level one warrior every bit as perceptive in judging a weapon's quality as a seasoned veteran?

Also, it doesn't take personal bias into account. A character who specializes in axes wouldn't think very much of a broadsword; he certainly wouldn't hold it in the same esteem as his "+5" axe.

And then there are wizards, who wouldn't know a damn thing about swords to begin with. So why would He of the Pointed Hat and Grandma's Dress be able to look at a "+5" broadsword and instantly, accurately assess its quality as a weapon?

Wizard can tell how magic-y it is. You don't need me to answer these simple questions.

 

[J1M]

Indeed, deciding which sword to sell to next vendor you meet based on 2 pages of incredibly dull fantasy fanfic is SO much better

Actually, what I meant is that removing the numbers and putting in descriptions forces you to use the weapons for a while, to see if they are worth keeping instead of instantly throwing them into the vendor trash bin.

Reading the descriptions is optional. Btw, I didn't mean fanfics - which wouldn't help deciding what to use, anyway - , I was thinking of actual, but not so exact descriptions - "good condition" , "causes frostburns", "can be used in X way" etc. Something that makes me look at it for more than 0.3 seconds - the time necessary to look at my current weapon's stats and notice the numbers are bigger.

Ahh, but the +3 and +2 represent your character's or an NPC's appraisal of the item. Reading a description box and deciding its worth is using player knowledge. So really, +3 sword is a more true roleplaying experience.

So, a quest compass would be the character constantly checking the map and reading it in place of the player?

The numbers you see for damage are what the character thinks the damage is. It just happens to be very accurate.

WAY too accurate. Only a machine would be able to see if something is in 87% or 86% condition.

something like "looks alright, except for two cracks on the handle" would be a nice compromise between charcter and player skill.

Other example: "2d6 fire damage" vs "Ignites the target, causing strong burns"

Yes, now you are understanding.

But you must know that 85% durability is just an estimation. As always, subject to error. The real value is something like 8532/10000.

The derogatory comment made about the descriptions you were advocating (calling them fanfic) was used as hyperbole to drive home the point. Saying "this sword is strong, blue, and slightly dull" is just condensed fanfic.

 

[Clockwork Knight]

Fanfics would be the stories contained in the item descriptions, but these don't contain anything about the actual item condition, so they don't have anything to do with what I said (unless words = fanfic). Some of them are even amusing, like this one from NWN1

Greater Battle Robe

Sick to death of hearing about the prowess of mages like Elminster,
Blackstaff, and the Red Wizards of Thay; Klaphen Fortier, a powerful, but
relatively unknown wizard, created these robes to bolster young spellcasters
across the realms. His hope was that youthful and unscrupulous mages might
be encouraged to challenge more powerful wizards in hopes of making a name
for themselves. Rumor has it that Klaphen died in an accident of spectacular
proportions, when 56 lightning bolts and numerous large meteors struck his
tower.

Below it you have the immersive numbers

Base Armor Class: 0
Maximum Dexterity Bonus: 100
Armor Check Penalty: 0
Arcane Spell Failure: 0%
Base Item: Armor
Weight: 1.0

AC Bonus vs. Alignment Group: Evil +2
Light Low (10m) Purple
Skill Bonus: Concentration +3
Skill Bonus: Spellcraft +3
Spell Resistance 14
Use Limitation: Class: Sorcerer
Use Limitation: Class: Wizard

 

[Zeus]

Wizard can tell how magic-y it is. You don't need me to answer these simple questions.

Who says the sword is magic? Plenty of non-D&D games have mundane weapons with the same sort of numerical power levels.

 

[J1M]

Wizard can tell how magic-y it is. You don't need me to answer these simple questions.

Who says the sword is magic? Plenty of non-D&D games have mundane weapons with the same sort of numerical power levels.

You said it was a +5 sword.

If your party doesn't have a warrior in it, then it doesn't matter how strong the non-magic sword is. If it does, then he can tell you how strong it is.

 

[J1M]

Fanfics would be the stories contained in the item descriptions, but these don't contain anything about the actual item condition, so they don't have anything to do with what I said (unless words = fanfic). Some of them are even amusing, like this one from NWN1

Greater Battle Robe

Sick to death of hearing about the prowess of mages like Elminster,
Blackstaff, and the Red Wizards of Thay; Klaphen Fortier, a powerful, but
relatively unknown wizard, created these robes to bolster young spellcasters
across the realms. His hope was that youthful and unscrupulous mages might
be encouraged to challenge more powerful wizards in hopes of making a name
for themselves. Rumor has it that Klaphen died in an accident of spectacular
proportions, when 56 lightning bolts and numerous large meteors struck his
tower.

Below it you have the immersive numbers

Base Armor Class: 0
Maximum Dexterity Bonus: 100
Armor Check Penalty: 0
Arcane Spell Failure: 0%
Base Item: Armor
Weight: 1.0

AC Bonus vs. Alignment Group: Evil +2
Light Low (10m) Purple
Skill Bonus: Concentration +3
Skill Bonus: Spellcraft +3
Spell Resistance 14
Use Limitation: Class: Sorcerer
Use Limitation: Class: Wizard

Exactly. Now you understand. If it doesn't have numbers or enumerated values, it is fanfic.

 

[Zeus]

Wizard can tell how magic-y it is. You don't need me to answer these simple questions.

Who says the sword is magic? Plenty of non-D&D games have mundane weapons with the same sort of numerical power levels.

You said it was a +5 sword.

Like I said, plenty of games rank non-magical weapons numerically. A "+5 sword" doesn't always mean its magical (depends on the ruleset), so a wizard untrained in the way of the sword would not be able to glance at such a non-magical weapon and ascertain its quality.

If your party doesn't have a warrior in it, then it doesn't matter how strong the non-magic sword is. If it does, then he can tell you how strong it is.

That doesn't make any sense. If you don't have a warrior, the sword is still assigned an accurate numerical rating because it "doesn't matter"? And if you do have a warrior, then suddenly HE'S the one coming up with the value?

It's not that I dislike the idea of the characters themselves supplying this information, it's that it just isn't consistent with the way these games play. Wizards shouldn't know about swords, and if the player is getting the information from his wizard, they shouldn't know about it either.

 

[J1M]

That doesn't make any sense. If you don't have a warrior, the sword is still assigned an accurate numerical rating because it "doesn't matter"? And if you do have a warrior, then suddenly HE'S the one coming up with the value?

It's not that I dislike the idea of the characters themselves supplying this information, it's that it just isn't consistent with the way these games play. Wizards shouldn't know about swords, and if the player is getting the information from his wizard, they shouldn't know about it either.

No, the number might be wrong but it doesn't matter until you have a warrior. The wizard is just a lucky guesser.

 

[Zeus]

That doesn't make any sense. If you don't have a warrior, the sword is still assigned an accurate numerical rating because it "doesn't matter"? And if you do have a warrior, then suddenly HE'S the one coming up with the value?

It's not that I dislike the idea of the characters themselves supplying this information, it's that it just isn't consistent with the way these games play. Wizards shouldn't know about swords, and if the player is getting the information from his wizard, they shouldn't know about it either.

No, the number might be wrong but it doesn't matter until you have a warrior. The wizard is just a lucky guesser.

Even if you aren't going to wield a +5 sword, you'll still know that it will sell or barter for more than a +2. Hence the player is benefiting from information he shouldn't have (if indeed it's coming from the wizard).

The whole "lucky guess" thing is coming off as a little weak, especially when the wizard's lucky guesses are every bit as accurate as a warrior's expert knowledge.

 

[J1M]

That doesn't make any sense. If you don't have a warrior, the sword is still assigned an accurate numerical rating because it "doesn't matter"? And if you do have a warrior, then suddenly HE'S the one coming up with the value?

It's not that I dislike the idea of the characters themselves supplying this information, it's that it just isn't consistent with the way these games play. Wizards shouldn't know about swords, and if the player is getting the information from his wizard, they shouldn't know about it either.

No, the number might be wrong but it doesn't matter until you have a warrior. The wizard is just a lucky guesser.

Even if you aren't going to wield a +5 sword, you'll still know that it will sell or barter for more than a +2. Hence the player is benefiting from information he shouldn't have (if indeed it's coming from the wizard).

The whole "lucky guess" thing is coming off as a little weak, especially when the wizard's lucky guesses are every bit as accurate as a warrior's expert knowledge.

I can't believe you've been taking my posts in this thread seriously.

 

[VentilatorOfDoom]

Below it you have the immersive numbers

Base Armor Class: 0
Maximum Dexterity Bonus: 100
Armor Check Penalty: 0
Arcane Spell Failure: 0%
Base Item: Armor
Weight: 1.0

AC Bonus vs. Alignment Group: Evil +2
Light Low (10m) Purple
Skill Bonus: Concentration +3
Skill Bonus: Spellcraft +3
Spell Resistance 14
Use Limitation: Class: Sorcerer
Use Limitation: Class: Wizard

See this is a good example how item descriptions should be. You know exactly what the item does and don't have to guess. If you think reading an *immersive* text is more important I suggest you GO BACK TO GAMEFAGS.

 

[DraQ]

You know exactly what the item does and don't have to guess.

What if you use complex mechanics optimized for powerful number grinding engine that is PC, rather than a sissy one suited to being run on a nerd or two?

 

[JarlFrank]

You know exactly what the item does and don't have to guess.

What if you use complex mechanics optimized for powerful number grinding engine that is PC, rather than a sissy one suited to being run on a nerd or two?

It would be number crunching HEAVAN and the mainstream kiddies would despair at all the numerical information that gets thrown at them.

 

[Clockwork Knight]

See this is a good example how item descriptions should be. You know exactly what the item does and don't have to guess. If you think reading an *immersive* text is more important I suggest you GO BACK TO GAMEFAGS.

Well, if you think reading an excel sheet is in any way related to roleplaying, I suggest you go back to...to wherever they teach maths to autistic kids. Yeah.

It would be number crunching HEAVAN and the mainstream kiddies would despair at all the numerical information that gets thrown at them.

The thing is, it's not hard or anything, so no 4 u. It's actually incredibly easy and you can see which item is worth keeping and which is vendor trash in ian instant ("zomg 2d5 < 3d6, am smart"). Go bak to diablo loot whore lolololo

RPG Codex: Putting the BIP BOP back in rpg.

 

[VentilatorOfDoom]

Well, if you think reading an excel sheet is in any way related to roleplaying, I suggest you go back to...to wherever they teach maths to autistic kids. Yeah.

An Excel sheet? Hilarious. So having the specific info what an item does disturbs your frail immersion and your *roleplay*. Seems as if games that enable true roleplaying and don't require autism to comprehend are right up your alley. Nice to see that Bios streamlining efforts are not wasted.

I don't mind if there's a short story attached to the item description as long as I get the info that I want too. As it is in the NWN1 example. The fact that certain games hide almost everything that's going on under the hood like ME2, and even DA (which had not even a combat log WTF?) is clearly a step into the wrong direction.

 

[DraQ]

I don't mind if there's a short story attached to the item description as long as I get the info that I want too.

What if this info consists of a fucking lot of data, say, geometric and physical, formatted for engine's use?

I'm not talking about some simplistic combat engine designed to be ran on a couple of nerds, plastic RNGs and under constant human supervision.
I'm talking about engine designed to run autonomously (no GM here) and to use the hardware to its fullest potential.

This means you'd get several screens of human-unreadable numbers when examining an item.

Now, there are some retarded manboons, known as scientists, who in their infinite stupidity came up with a concept of visualizing data to make it more human readable, but Codex is apparently too for that.


In case of a computer game there is no better way to visualize stuff, than to integrate this visualization into gameworld presentation whenever it makes sense. Or would be, if it wasn't so and dumbing down.

As it is in the NWN1 example. The fact that certain games hide almost everything that's going on under the hood like ME2, and even DA (which had not even a combat log WTF?) is clearly a step into the wrong direction.

There are probably no RPG games and scarcely any games at all whose designers would have both balls and brains to do anything that would actually warrant hiding the mechanics, so neither DA or ME are of any relevance here.

Also, since when is combat log a must have? Sure it's a nice thing in games whose mechanics allow for it, but it's in no way essential nor even very helpful.

 

[VentilatorOfDoom]

What if this info consists of a fucking lot of data, say, geometric and physical, formatted for engine's use?
I'm not talking about some simplistic combat engine designed to be ran on a couple of nerds, plastic RNGs and under constant human supervision.
I'm talking about engine designed to run autonomously (no GM here) and to use the hardware to its fullest potential.

Ok. What is this fantasy system that's so incredibly complicated that it's impossible to list the properties of an item comprehensively. Example?
Plus, it's not necessary to know everything what happens in damage calculations or whatever in the engine. But adding some basic information, like this:
Damage: 30-50
Armor penetrating
25% chance of wounding
should be possible even in this complcated system you imagine, no?

And yes, should such a system exist (does it?) it would hardly make sense to include several screens of human-unreadable numbers in item descriptions. As it is the point is moot because there are no systems that are that complicated.

Example: ME2.
I DID think it sucked that weapons had no proper descriptions. How much damage, range, accuracy etc. For me the verbal description were just unsatisfactory. As it turned out it actually didn't matter anyway because the weapons are pretty good balanced, eg there's the sniper rifle with 10 shots, and the other one with 60 shots. The first one does ~6 times the damage so it doesn't really matter which one you choose in the first place and that makes the matter actually worse.

Also, since when is combat log a must have? Sure it's a nice thing in games whose mechanics allow for it, but it's in no way essential nor even very helpful.

Might not matter for you, but it does for me and for me it is helpful. The absence of a combat log and general feedback was one of the things that bothered me most in DA for example. Why? I'm used to play RPGs tactically and that requires information. A game that obfuscates all or most of this information gains immediate minus points. The best example how to do it right is KotC. If anything doesn't work you DO know why. All information is there and you can use it to make your decisions. Modern games (except Drakensang for instance, I just play the River of Time which is quite an improvement over the first one) abandoned this tactical approach, you don't have to micromanage your actions and the game is generally so easy that not knowing what's going on doesn't matter much. The game basically plays itself and the result is predictable, boring and lame combat but great larping opportunities.

 

[janjetina]

A system can be arbitrarily complex, but the outcomes are always few and simple and can be expressed as numbers and percentages whose understanding is not a problem for a person. A flavorful description is a huge plus, but quantitative descriptions are essential for proper planning.

 

[Awor Szurkrarz]

Quantitative descriptions are here because the game systems aren't simulationist which means that effects of item use will often be counter-intuitive.