Questions on factions, et cetera

[Mr Happy]

By the way, those excepts are interesting. So there's unded in AoD?

One. It's an experiment that I'm still not sure of. Basically, since the events of the long-forgotten past play a certain role in the game, I wanted to have someone who still remembers them. A talking skull (yes, I like Morte, so sue me) seemed like a good option, so I tried writing something, "explaining" this character. You carry him in the inventory and discuss various topics with him. Then again, it IS a Morte/Murray rip-off, so it's not final yet.

Any opinions?

How long ago is the long forgotton past? The idea of a sort of window (possibly distorted, but still) into the past is interesting, but would it be concievable for this to guy to be a living person, or a person "sustained" through something? One of the few memorable characters in Morrowind was the "last living dwarf" guy, who is depressingly diseased in a dungeon. I liked how he wasnt there when the dwarves dissapeared, so it left plenty of room for mystery, but he could still share some insight.

 

[Vault Dweller]

How long ago is the long forgotton past?

About 400 years.

The idea of a sort of window (possibly distorted, but still) into the past is interesting, but would it be concievable for this to guy to be a living person, or a person "sustained" through something?

Don't think so. Besides, when you have a living person, there is a question of why he was sustained and what he would do now that he is free. There are no party members so he can't join you (not that he would have a reason to). Leaving him standing where you found him would be silly. From that point of view, a talking skull is a more convenient device (nowhere to go; can carry; access to a lot of info; don't trust the skull jokes, etc). Still, can't say that I like the idea, so most likely I'll remove it.

 

[galsiah]

A talking skull... Any opinions?

I don't think it's a good idea unless there are many similarly weird (if totally different) artefacts etc. in the game. If it doesn't fit in at all, I'd suggest not including it.

If it does fit (i.e. there's quite a few very weird objects from the past), I still think you'd need to come up with some good explanation of how and why it was created. Mad mage on acid trip probably doesn't qualify.

I don't think there's anything at all wrong with weirdness, but it does mean you need to do a better job explaining things. With conventional stuff, the player can fill in the blanks effectively without much help. E.g. a "human bandit" immediately gives the player all the associations of being human and a bandit - with just two words, the player makes a multitude of assumptions, and can quickly see how he fits into the game world (though of course he might be vague/wrong on any detail).

With a talking skull, you get almost no assumptions (or perhaps dodgy ones for PS:T players), so you need to illustrate its place in the setting without any help. Again, I think doing this would be more effective if you can tie it in with other objects from the past (e.g. common creator, common motivation for creation, common history / location, common narrative etc.).

It's a bit wasteful to come up with a rich history for a single weird item, if you can't tie that in to a more general history. If you can tie it in (without forcing the game world in a direction you don't want to take it), it'll help build the player's understanding of the game world - which is great. If you can't, it was a silly idea.

 

[almondblight]

Hmmm...interestin excerpts, but the first seems a bit to obvious. "There seems to be a trap here, do you 1. Examine the are or 2. Just walk in?" Why not examine every time? The same with the "remove nail from skull" choice - any choice that seems specialized makes it seem like the developer is encouraging that as the right choice. That was my problem with dialogue in Fallout:

1. I want foooooood!
2. Could you please give me some food?
3. Good sir, I noticed we are of the same village, and I think it woudl behoove us both if we were to help each other out. Some food would be much appreciated.

Not much of a choice. Which is why I preferred the dialogue of Deus Ex - the conversation existed and only branched off when you had an actual choice.

 

[Ismaul]

I like the concept of exploring the past through someone else's memory.
Here's a couple of ideas, which may or may not fit with the setting. Maybe they're too magical, but you could always go with a Lovecraftian flavor.

What about, instead of a living/unliving individual, you had a sentient object. I don't know if it's something that could have been possible with the powerful magic that was known during the past. I was thinking of a book, with which you had to talk to to get his knowledge. If he's sentient, he won't want to grant his knowledge to anyone who opened him, unlike other books. etc. There are possible reasons to exist/origins for a book like that: a self-writing history book/secretary/diary might be convenient to someone, or it could also be a historian, trapped in the book.

Or maybe it's an object that has been in a location where there was lots of knowledge permeating, and he "recorded it". So you'd have a vision through time of what the object understood of what was happening around him, but since he couldn't move, the knowledge would be limited and you'd/he'd have to infer from it. Plus, the object might have been moved around in time, changed owner... Maybe it's a worn object (ring, amulet?).

Anyways, the most important thing is that it fits with the setting.


Oh, and what almondblight said. When the good choice is too obvious (and it's actually the good choice), it's like not having a choice at all. But I can understand how it's hard to make the choices unobvious in the specific situation we are talking about, and it might not be worthwhile to.

 

[JoKa]

one way to make a 'choice' out of that, would be to add a skill (or perception) check to the 'examine the door'-option. shouldn't be too hard a check, but still unavailable to the 'completely blind'...

 

[One Wolf]

personally (and i do like Morte) i feel that a gimmick like that would be out of place. i suppose that it might work if done really well, but is it worth the risk?

 

[Monolith]

Don't think so. Besides, when you have a living person, there is a question of why he was sustained and what he would do now that he is free. There are no party members so he can't join you (not that he would have a reason to). Leaving him standing where you found him would be silly.

Not necessarily. He can derive his vital energy from a machine of some kind - magical or not. That way he'll be bound to the place you found him. The player can activate it and thus bring him back to life - if he has the necessary skills or whatnot.

As to why he was kept alive in the first place. It could have been his decision or punishment or an unsuccessful experiment. Or he was just kept there as a living journal for future generations to come. I don't know, but prefer that to a talking skull and from what I know it fits the setting.

 

[Azael]

Only VD can decide if it fits or not. Based on what we've heard of the back story so far, it might not fit, but there have been quite a few surprises before like the vacuum tubes. As long as there's a reasonable explanation and it's not too gimmicky and silly, go for it. I assume that the reason for this is that VD wants some sort of interactive link to the past as opposed to just finding writings, which is a good idea if you ask me. Kind of like encountering Zax in the Glow. Of course, maybe a talking skull isn't the best and most original solution.

 

[Kingston]

I like the traps, they remind me of those Fighting Fantasy books. When I played/read them as a kid I could never resist looking inside the box or whatever. Then if it was a trap I always used to flip back to the page I was on before

 

[Jora]

It could be something other than a skull while still being an inventory item (because sentient items rule). A crystall ball with someone's soul in it (because sensory stones rule too )?

 

[Vault Dweller]

A talking skull... Any opinions?

I don't think it's a good idea unless there are many similarly weird (if totally different) artefacts etc. in the game.

Not many, but there are several non-human characters in the game, although they do fit in better than a talking skull, to be honest.

...I still think you'd need to come up with some good explanation of how and why it was created. Mad mage on acid trip probably doesn't qualify.

There is an explanation. This character was one of the Magi who summoned the "gods" (it's a long story). He used a similar process to bind his spirit to his body. For a very specific reason, the original "summoning team" was killed. If you decide to find out what happened, eventually you'll learn of this magus, find his notes, and find the location of his burial chamber. You may find that the sorceries still work or that they failed decades ago.

It's a bit wasteful to come up with a rich history for a single weird item...

See above. This character is already part of the lore.

Hmmm...interestin excerpts, but the first seems a bit to obvious.

I wasn't trying to make it into a puzzle. I simply wanted to make it a bit more interesting than "you see a red rectangle, click disarm".

Maybe they're too magical, but you could always go with a Lovecraftian flavor.

There's plenty of Lovecraftian flavor in the game.

What about, instead of a living/unliving individual, you had a sentient object.

Something like:

There is a stone statue of a demon reading a book. The demon is carved with great precision, and his pose reflects deep thoughts and tranquility. As you approach, the statue closes the book in one fluid motion and looks at you with amusement:

"I do believe we have a visitor. Unfortunately, it appears that we are closed at the moment, and I've been instructed to dispose of all visitors. Therefore, we have a dilemma."

"Dispose?"

"Kill. Destroy. Murder. Do you have any preferences in the matter? If there is some sort of death you would enjoy more, feel free to share that with me. Being an expert in killing, I'm sure I'm familiar with most methods and would be more than happy to accomodate your request."
....

"What are you?"

"Since it's unlikely that you can understand the concept of silicon-based lifeform, call me "stone guardian". I was created by the masters of this tower, who appear to be long gone. Such is the nature of flesh - it doesn't last. Stone, on the other hand, lasts forever. A gift and a curse at the same time, really."

"You are very intelligent for a stone creature."

"I'm very intelligent for any creature, human, and I doubt that you have the capacity to estimate my intelligence."

And so on. The guardian is ancient and he also was around when the events related to the main quest took place. His perspective is different though.

Not necessarily. He can derive his vital energy from a machine of some kind - magical or not. That way he'll be bound to the place you found him. The player can activate it and thus bring him back to life - if he has the necessary skills or whatnot.

That may work. Sounds like a good opportunity to test some skills.

I assume that the reason for this is that VD wants some sort of interactive link to the past as opposed to just finding writings, which is a good idea if you ask me.

That was the idea.

Kind of like encountering Zax in the Glow. Of course, maybe a talking skull isn't the best and most original solution.

Goes without saying, which is why I'm not sure about it.

 

[hiciacit]

The idea of being able to log someone/something around to talk to about a forgotten passed is great. I just wouldn't use a skull for it... Isn't their something else that could work while better fitting the setting and being less of a rip-off? A small statue for example (like those forefather statues in Roman times)?

 

[Fez]

A way to get extra back story if the player wants to read some extra is always a plus in my book.

 

[Kingston]

How much would the skull react with the player on a personal level? Do you just jab at it and its starts talking about the past or willl it also question the player's decisions, socialize etc?

 

[Ivy Mike]

Am I reading you right in that you're going to use a text based "mini-game" when the player enters a dungeon (for example), instead letting the player explore the dungeon himself? Kind of like the text based city exploration in Darklands?

To tell the history of the world through the eyes of a long time survior is an excellent idea. Arcanum did that extremely well with the guy (whatever his name was. I recall you had to brin a drop of blood to awaken him) you find in the cursed/abandoned monastery. They way he told the story of the great war from the perspective of an undead solider was plain awesome - I consider it one of the better moments in any cRPG I've played. What made the encounter so inspiring was the fact that although you knew he fought on the side of "evil" and his recollection of the past was severely biased you couldn't help but to find yourself taking his "side.

 

[Vault Dweller]

How much would the skull react with the player on a personal level? Do you just jab at it and its starts talking about the past or willl it also question the player's decisions, socialize etc?

It's a grumpy old bastard who thinks that you are stupid, doesn't approve of anything you do, dismisses your arguments, and so on. The skull can initiate conversations if that's what you are asking. Having him in the inventory completely changes your conversation with one of the Houses' pet magus. That's about it.

Am I reading you right in that you're going to use a text based "mini-game" when the player enters a dungeon (for example), instead letting the player explore the dungeon himself? Kind of like the text based city exploration in Darklands?

No, you still explore the dungeon, but every now and then I'll switch to text-based "mini-games" to spice things up. See the screenshots here:
http://rpgvault.ign.com/articles/749/749013p1.html

 

[One Wolf]

There is a stone statue of a demon reading a book. The demon is carved with great precision, and his pose reflects deep thoughts and tranquility. As you approach, the statue closes the book in one fluid motion and looks at you with amusement:

"I do believe we have a visitor. Unfortunately, it appears that we are closed at the moment, and I've been instructed to dispose of all visitors. Therefore, we have a dilemma."

"Dispose?"

"Kill. Destroy. Murder. Do you have any preferences in the matter? If there is some sort of death you would enjoy more, feel free to share that with me. Being an expert in killing, I'm sure I'm familiar with most methods and would be more than happy to accomodate your request."
....

"What are you?"

"Since it's unlikely that you can understand the concept of silicon-based lifeform, call me "stone guardian". I was created by the masters of this tower, who appear to be long gone. Such is the nature of flesh - it doesn't last. Stone, on the other hand, lasts forever. A gift and a curse at the same time, really."

"You are very intelligent for a stone creature."

"I'm very intelligent for any creature, human, and I doubt that you have the capacity to estimate my intelligence."

this is really good stuff.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Thanks.

 

[Ismaul]

Demonic stone statue teaser.

this is really good stuff.

I agree. It has style.

 

[Durwyn]

Demonic stone statue teaser.

this is really good stuff.

I agree. It has style.

Second that, fucking great IMO.

 

[Kingston]

It's a grumpy old bastard who thinks that you are stupid, doesn't approve of anything you do, dismisses your arguments, and so on. The skull can initiate conversations if that's what you are asking. Having him in the inventory completely changes your conversation with one of the Houses' pet magus. That's about it.

Sounds fun. I'd like to see one of those situations where you are talking with royalty or are perhaps seducing an enchanting lady when the skull suddendly says something and fucks up everything up. And yes, I know its very cliche.

Also, that dialogue with that rockmonsterthingy (DO YOU SMEEEEEEEEL, WHAT THE ROCK IS COOKINGAH!) was pretty well done. Although you should take the "really" away from the end of the gift and curse thing, it makes him sound too casual.

 

[Jora]

Although you should take the "really" away from the end of the gift and curse thing, it makes him sound too casual.

I think it works well. Without the "really" the sentence would be a boring cliche.

 

[Dementia Praecox]

Although you should take the "really" away from the end of the gift and curse thing, it makes him sound too casual.

What? The casual thing is part of what's making him awesome!

Edit: We're on the same page, you and me Jora. Same page.

 

[Azael]

Agreed, a casual monster is a good thing. Silicone based lifeform, eh? Guess that the technology/magic was pretty damn powerful back in the good ole days.