Questions on factions, et cetera

[Mr Happy]

First, I will say that RPG factions and faction conflict are completely my bag. If done well, they are excellent vehicles for choice and consequence, roleplaying, world reactivity, and world background. And from what I’ve read, it seems like AoD’s system has nailed it. A few fun questions though..

June 2, 2006 RPG Dot interview
Q: Are there any NPC schedules, reactions to player actions or other elements that help create a dynamic world?

A: The gameworld is very reactive. Everything you do affects someone or something and has consequences. NPCs play specific roles and functions in the gameworld. For example, one of the thieves' functions is smuggling. That function is connected to other characters and their functions, creating some interesting action-reaction scenarios for players to, well, play with.

If conditions for successful smuggling operations have changed (smugglers are dead or arrested, the shipment hasn't been sent from another location, corruption among guards has been eliminated, etc), the smuggling stops. And now that affects someone else. Some craftsmen who relied on the supply of cheap ore are out of business. The Merchants' Guild becomes stronger, expands its trading operations and influence.

If you manage to weaken a faction significantly, another faction will see an opportunity and move in, again, affecting a lot of things. The bigger the rock, the bigger the ripples.

So how does the weakening of factions work? Is it simply a described state, or is it measured in territory, population, wealth or influence? Is affecting faction strength mostly done through quests, or is there a lot of opportunities (like the smuggling example) to affect factions in a non-quest situation? (For example, would killing a head honcho or a lot of less important guys have any affect outside of a quest? If you simply wiped out a faction, how would the world react? Etc.)

Likewise, can you strengthen groups at all (recruit, donate etc), and if so what general consequences would this have? I recall you giving some example about the thieves’ guild getting wiped out as a result of some quest. Let’s say you bolstered up the thieves guild, could they survive the attack? That sort of thing. (not sure if this is exactly the situation you described, but you get what I’m saying)

Just one final thing. Is there some measured relation between factions (similar to how your reputation with them is tracked), or are these relations only expressed through consequences of quests, like the thieves guild being decimated? If there are measured inter-faction relations, how much influence does the player have over them (i.e. can you get the merchants pissed at the thieves? etc.)

Sorry for the ridiculous amount of questions, but AoD’s faction system sounds excellent, certainly my kind of thang, and that part of the article really got me curious about this.

 

[Major_Blackhart]

I love how you say thang.

 

[Mr Happy]

It is a very sleek and sexy word. Plus, versatility is there as well. I can think of hundreds of different uses for it. Most of them involve analsecks, but eh.

 

[Vault Dweller]

So how does the weakening of factions work? Is it simply a described state, or is it measured in territory, population, wealth or influence?

People and functions. Usually killing the right people is enough to weaken a faction. It doesn't even have to be the faction members, it could be someone who gives the faction his protection.

Is affecting faction strength mostly done through quests, or is there a lot of opportunities (like the smuggling example) to affect factions in a non-quest situation? (For example, would killing a head honcho or a lot of less important guys have any affect outside of a quest? If you simply wiped out a faction, how would the world react? Etc.)

Both (through quests and "opportunities"). If you wipe out a faction all by yourself, a rival faction will take over the facilities and operations (to a certain extent). If the thieves are gone, the tavern, out of which they operated, will be taken over by the merchants guild.

Likewise, can you strengthen groups at all (recruit, donate etc), and if so what general consequences would this have? I recall you giving some example about the thieves’ guild getting wiped out as a result of some quest. Let’s say you bolstered up the thieves guild, could they survive the attack?

No, but you can prevent the attack if you can figure out the way out of the situation the quest led you into. Overall, you can only strengthen your faction by doing faction quests which usually revolve around acting against the rival factions.

Just one final thing. Is there some measured relation between factions (similar to how your reputation with them is tracked)...

Yes. Each faction likes, dislikes, and hates other factions. Basically, there are allies and enemies. Scoring some reputation with one faction will adjust your reputation with all the other factions. I'm afraid you can't change these standings, i.e. can't change "dislikes" to "likes".

Sorry for the ridiculous amount of questions, but AoD’s faction system sounds excellent, certainly my kind of thang, and that part of the article really got me curious about this.

Not a problem.

 

[Mr Happy]

Thanks, sounds awesome. Another quick question, is there some sort of mechanism that allows you to join a faction just for information/weakening from the inside, then renounce your affiliation (for the sake of keeping up reputation with other groups)?

 

[Vault Dweller]

Sadly, no.

 

[Major_Blackhart]

Remember in real life, if you join a gang, you're in for life, and everyone associates you with that gang, whether you like it or not. Tis the same here, I would think. Simply to renounce your membership and have everybody like you would be too easy. If that were the case, not only would every gang hate your ass, but your own former gang would too as well.

 

[Fez]

If you could drop in and out like that it'd be too easy to powergame it. If there was an option for it there would need to be hefty consequences like Blackhart mentioned.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Remember in real life, if you join a gang, you're in for life, and everyone associates you with that gang, whether you like it or not. Tis the same here, I would think. Simply to renounce your membership and have everybody like you would be too easy. If that were the case, not only would every gang hate your ass, but your own former gang would too as well.

Yep. You can betray a faction and join another, but your loyalty rep stat will reflect that, and while people may find you useful and skilled, they won't trust you much and may even get rid of you after your job is done. Depends on loyalty, faction rep, faction type, etc.

 

[Major_Blackhart]

Well, if you remember FO2, you could actually successfully power game in New Reno. You simply killed as many of the gang as possible, until you wiped them all out, or until you were no longer affiliated with them. Then you could run and gun for other gangs as well.

 

[Mr Happy]

If you could drop in and out like that it'd be too easy to powergame it. If there was an option for it there would need to be hefty consequences like Blackhart mentioned.

Of course. If the option was there, certainly some heavy consequences would be in order. Loyalty and all, and the faction you left would not be all that excited either. Though in the case I mentioned, I was thinking of it as doing work for another faction. Using disguise or the fact that you are not well known** to get in, doing some damage, and getting out, but without trouble from the faction you are working for, assuming you don’t help the faction you join at all. Of course, the group you just played for fools will be upset, but that’s a different story. A bit complex, I guess, but it could work in a quest situation (ex: a solution for getting some dirt on a group, with the consequences that the faction wants you dead).

It would be interesting, though, to be in a situation where you are playing both sides for your own motives, because the stakes are high. Mess up, and both sides are mad, and basically your ass is grass. Succeed, well, probably same thing, but at least you got what you wanted (maybe weakening both groups or something).

Well, if you remember FO2, you could actually successfully power game in New Reno. You simply killed as many of the gang as possible, until you wiped them all out, or until you were no longer affiliated with them. Then you could run and gun for other gangs as well.

I wasn’t really thinking about this before, but renouncing affiliations just because “you want out” is an interesting concept to play with in terms of consequences. Going on the FO2 example, let’s talk to St. Toxic at DAC:

Conflicts of interest are nonexistent in TESO. If you're in a competing group, and you want to join the other side, it should be difficult, or at least a different experience than walking in 'clean slate.' You could be made man of all the New Reno families, but only one at a time. That makes sense.

Sure does. It was a brilliant piece of Last Man Standing antics. You could do a bit of pitting them against each other, or just grab as much as possible from each of the families to make a buck. And it feels like you could get in some heavy shit playing that game too far, doesn't it? They are gangsters afterall.

Toxic, how about renouncing your affiliations? Hell, an ex-slaver might endear himself to the Rangers maybe more than some guy with no past at all could. An ex-slaver might have to take a test, like run an infiltration mission a la Vortis in NCR, but it could be done. Maybe you could rise up in two groups simultaneously, but you'd have to be careful. And some factions, unscurpulous types like Hubologists, might just string you along, in hopes of subverting the other group which you lead.

What, you're asking me? I mean, the slavers are quite special -- they're likely the result of former kkk members merging their love fluids with some Holnists from another dimension -- and as such they're generally considered pretty gosh darn rotten ( aldoh I'd say being a citizen of Vault City would be a much worse reputation twister ). Renouncing your slaver status should be an option, but as such it'd be better if you had to renounce it every time someone goes "Gurgh slaver.", and not like slipping a note to the proper authorities about your current clan status, setting the record straight once and for all. And just because you no longer have anything to do with the slavers guild, shouldn't mean everyone's ok with it -- you're still hated, right, only some will be more accepting of it. So better would be just to buy a hat to cover the tatoo and never really mention what you've been up to.

Rising up in two groups simultaniously, totally a good idea. Not every group is unfriendly to eachother, and not every group has the resources to find out what you're up to once you leave their territory -- but as you said, danger follows and in the end you'll have to choose between them ( if they're rival groups ) or, ofcourse, choose yourself.

http://www.duckandcover.cx/forums/viewtopic.php?t=12219&start=20

So yes, no backing out slash going back in piece of cake. But certainly there would be advantages to messing with both sides, as well as some not-so-easy choices regarding how far to go and serious consequences no matter where what happens. All the fun of decadence indeed.



**Speaking of which, is there any advantage in AoD for being relatively unknown (like what I mentioned before)?

 

[Perishiko]

Remember in real life, if you join a gang, you're in for life, and everyone associates you with that gang, whether you like it or not. Tis the same here, I would think. Simply to renounce your membership and have everybody like you would be too easy. If that were the case, not only would every gang hate your ass, but your own former gang would too as well.

Yep. You can betray a faction and join another, but your loyalty rep stat will reflect that, and while people may find you useful and skilled, they won't trust you much and may even get rid of you after your job is done. Depends on loyalty, faction rep, faction type, etc.

While doing a quest with disguise, will your reputation still be lowered with the people you're acting against?

Same with traps... Will people simply know that you're the one that set the trap? (And by the way, what kind of traps are there?)

Basicaly, how is your reputation handled with any stealthy skills, kills, trickery, ect?

 

[Vault Dweller]

While doing a quest with disguise, will your reputation still be lowered with the people you're acting against?

Disguise is merely a way to proceed from point A to point B, like Lockpick, for example. You can't use Disguise to pretend to be someone else all the time. So, at the end of each quest your reputation with the faction involved will be adjusted.

Same with traps... Will people simply know that you're the one that set the trap? (And by the way, what kind of traps are there?)

No. Traps are mostly text-based. I can explain if you want to.

Basicaly, how is your reputation handled with any stealthy skills, kills, trickery, ect?

If nobody saw you then there are no adjustments. However, if you were acting on behalf of a faction, then there are other people involved, and people always talk. If the Merchants Guild warehouse was robbed by the Thieves Guild, it's only a matter of time before the merchants will know who was sent to rob the warehouse.

 

[Major_Blackhart]

Nice. Is that time based on how stealthy you were and how flawlessly you performed the robbery, or is it a set time like after so many days? Like if you were noisy as all fuck and people saw you, they'll know instantaneously, and if you were noisy, no one saw you, but you left a corpse, they'll find out a day or two later, and if no one saw you, heard you, etc at all, then they'll investigate and find out maybe two weeks later?

 

[Perishiko]

No. Traps are mostly text-based. I can explain if you want to.

If you wouldn't mind, I'd love a little explaining.

And the reputation system sounds great, exactly how I thought it'd work.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Well, imagine a heavily trapped area in a role-playing game. Does it fill your heart with terror? No, you are merely annoyed. "Oh, fuck, now I have to use my thief to examine and disarm gazillion traps. THANKSALOT, game developers!!!" The situation is slightly better with the immortal NPCs (NWN2, KOTOR). I simply disregarded most traps and ran through them, wondering why they (evil NPCs and developers) even bother.

Since I'm a big fan of text adventure elements, I decided to use them to bring the suspension back. Compare all the excitement of "you see an isometric view of a passage, you see the red rectangle of a trap, you click "disarm", watch disarming animation, the rectangle disappears, the way is clear" to:
..............

The narrow, roughly carved passage leads into the darkness. The stone floor is covered with dust. It looks like it's been a really long time since someone had travelled here.

1. Go in
2. Examine the entrance
3. Leave

If 2.
You find some symbols etched into the floor.

1. Go in
2. Examine the symbols
3. Leave

If 2.
You examine the symbols. The language is unknown to you, but the message is short and, probably, of no importance.
or
[lore] You examine the symbols. They look like an archaic form of Seltu, the language of several northern tribes, known for their contribution into the art of raiding and pillaging. The message says "The trap killed three. Watch your seventh step"

1. Go in
2. Proceed slowly, examining every inch of the walls and the floor
3. Take six steps and examine the area (you get this option only if you read the message)
4. Leave

If 3.
It's too dark to see, but it doesn't take you long to find a large stone pressure plate, cleverly carved to match the floor. The plate is long enough, but you can probably jump over it.

1. Jump (Dex check)
2. Try jamming the plate.(Crafting check)
3. Go back

And so on. You can fail both checks and try dodging the trap.

 

[Perishiko]

The narrow, roughly carved passage leads into the darkness. The stone floor is covered with dust. It looks like it's been a really long time since someone had travelled here.

1. Go in
2. Examine the entrance
3. Leave

Sounds alot more interactive then a simple check. It's what I would think of as a "mini-game" done well.

It's great to be able to ask such questions. Thanks again.

 

[Major_Blackhart]

Well, imagine a heavily trapped area in a role-playing game. Does it fill your heart with terror? No, you are merely annoyed. "Oh, fuck, now I have to use my thief to examine and disarm gazillion traps. THANKSALOT, game developers!!!" The situation is slightly better with the immortal NPCs (NWN2, KOTOR). I simply disregarded most traps and ran through them, wondering why they (evil NPCs and developers) even bother.

Since I'm a big fan of text adventure elements, I decided to use them to bring the suspension back. Compare all the excitement of "you see an isometric view of a passage, you see the red rectangle of a trap, you click "disarm", watch disarming animation, the rectangle disappears, the way is clear" to:
..............

The narrow, roughly carved passage leads into the darkness. The stone floor is covered with dust. It looks like it's been a really long time since someone had travelled here.

1. Go in
2. Examine the entrance
3. Leave

If 2.
You find some symbols etched into the floor.

1. Go in
2. Examine the symbols
3. Leave

If 2.
You examine the symbols. The language is unknown to you, but the message is short and, probably, of no importance.
or
[lore] You examine the symbols. They look like an archaic form of Seltu, the language of several northern tribes, known for their contribution into the art of raiding and pillaging. The message says "The trap killed three. Watch your seventh step"

1. Go in
2. Proceed slowly, examining every inch of the walls and the floor
3. Take six steps and examine the area (you get this option only if you read the message)
4. Leave

If 3.
It's too dark to see, but it doesn't take you long to find a large stone pressure plate, cleverly carved to match the floor. The plate is long enough, but you can probably jump over it.

1. Jump (Dex check)
2. Try jamming the plate.(Crafting check)
3. Go back

And so on. You can fail both checks and try dodging the trap.

I love you VD, and this awesome game. And I give my manly rape styled love freely to your developer buddies.

 

[Azael]

1. Go in
2. Proceed slowly, examining every inch of the walls and the floor
3. Take six steps and examine the area (you get this option only if you read the message)
4. Leave

If you choose 2, rather than 3, would you still get a similar outcome? Assuming that your character isn't completely blind.

Also, will there be situations when you get this kind of dialogue without a trap waiting for you down the line or is this a dead give away that danger lies ahead?

 

[Vault Dweller]

1. Go in
2. Proceed slowly, examining every inch of the walls and the floor
3. Take six steps and examine the area (you get this option only if you read the message)
4. Leave

If you choose 2, rather than 3, would you still get a similar outcome? Assuming that your character isn't completely blind.

Assuming that your character isn't completely blind (Perception check).

Also, will there be situations when you get this kind of dialogue without a trap waiting for you down the line or is this a dead give away that danger lies ahead?

Yes.

Edit:

You stand in front of a large sarcophagus. There are no decorations; every available surface is covered with symbols carved deep into the stone. Their placement is too chaotic to be a lifestory of the one locked inside. You feel a burning sensation when you move your hand closer to the symbols.

1. Open the sarcophagus.
2. Examine the symbols
3. Leave it alone.

If 1:
Declaring a victory over common sense, you open the sarcophagus. There is an old and dusty skeleton inside. It doesn't appear that he took anything with him into the afterlife, except for five golden nails attaching him to the sarcophagus.

1. Take the nails - gold is gold.
2. Remove the nail from the skull.
3. Leave it alone.

If 1:
You remove a nail from one of the arms. The fingers move slowly at first, and then start to weave some kind of pattern. A lightning bolt strikes at the sarcophagus, narrowly missing you and wiping out a score of now glowing symbols.

1. Run. As fast as you can.
2. Cut the arm off.

 

[Azael]

Man, get this fucking game out already so that our high hopes can be crushed.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Working on it. In unrelated news, AoD seems to be doing well in this poll:
http://www.gamebanshee.com/forums/gameb ... 84559.html

 

[Jora]

Working on it. In unrelated news, AoD seems to be doing well in this poll:
http://www.gamebanshee.com/forums/gameb ... 84559.html

Heh, I just came here to post that.

Most people in that thread seem to have something positive to say about AoD. Interesting to see that it has more votes than The Witcher and The Broken Hourglass.

 

[Claw]

You're trying to fix another poll? Did you forget how that turned out the last time?*

By the way, those excepts are interesting. So there's unded in AoD? I didn't expect that. Sounds like an interesting location.


*How did that turn out, anyway? I never checked if AoD's votes were reduced or something.

 

[Vault Dweller]

By the way, those excepts are interesting. So there's unded in AoD?

One. It's an experiment that I'm still not sure of. Basically, since the events of the long-forgotten past play a certain role in the game, I wanted to have someone who still remembers them. A talking skull (yes, I like Morte, so sue me) seemed like a good option, so I tried writing something, "explaining" this character. You carry him in the inventory and discuss various topics with him. Then again, it IS a Morte/Murray rip-off, so it's not final yet.

Any opinions?

*How did that turn out, anyway? I never checked if AoD's votes were reduced or something.

I don't recall what the numbers were, but currently AoD is #6.