Please help me understand something about Neverwinter Nights

[sea]

So the setup of Neverwinter Nights is that there is a horrible plague in the city which is killing of tons of people. Chaos reigns and only you can collect the ingredients for a plague cure!

Except uh. Well.

This is D&D, so what happened to Cure Disease spells and potions? Pretty sure those still exist in D&D canon, yet of course I haven't actually found a single one exploring the game world, so is there a shortage or something? They never ever touch on this at all.

But more to the point, this is D&D, and when you die, you can just get resurrected at the nearest temple to whatever random god. So wouldn't like, the first thing to do when a plague hits is to round up everyone, put them in plague camps and then just have the priests there cast Cure Disease and Resurrect whenever someone bites the dust? Sure, some people would slip through the cracks, but if you were proactive enough you could keep the plague at bay long enough to avoid too much death while a real cure is found.

Actually, come to think of it, plague camps are unnecessary. Whenever your follower dies, he/she gets automatically teleported to the Temple of Tyr, and is restored with full health and no ill effects. This happens no matter how far away from the Temple of Tyr you are (even deep underground), and even if you aren't a mage or cleric with the Resurrect spell.

There's the possibility that this is the result of the Stone of Recall here. But even if that is the case, it doesn't explain why they don't just give those to everyone else in the world (or at least people of import). Or why the villains themselves don't use them. But even if the camps are needed, that still doesn't explain why they don't set them up to begin with and just quarantine people away in the No-Man's Land and Beggar's Nest.

So do they ever offer an explanation? Or did I put more thought into the story for Neverwinter Nights than the developers ever did?

 

[hoverdog]

but in all seriousness, the influence of high-level magic on everyday life was not and wouldn't ever be tackled by high fantasy.

 

[Whisky]

Overthinking game premises can be really fun, but for NWN it's really just a futile attempt. It's too dull to like seriously and far too dull to make fun of.

Perhaps the fair Princess Volourn might have a more nuanced opinion though.

 

[sea]

See, I was really hoping that wouldn't be the answer. Because exploring the implications of gods, magic, etc. on a real-world epidemic would actually make a pretty fucking cool setup for a game.

You could answer all these obvious questions and provide logical "fantasy world" analogues to real-world situations. Maybe Cure Disease potions do work, but there are limited quantities and the ingredients are rare, so only the rich members of society can afford them, leading to riots and protests in the streets as the plague-ridden masses desperately seek aid. Maybe the plague stays in your body after a Resurrect spell is used - so while you can keep resurrecting someone over and over, eventually they end up a diseased carcass struggling to breathe and writhing in misery. Perhaps the gods themselves were the ones to create the plague and the lack of a cure is a way of mankind paying penance for its sins. All this stuff alone is enough to make for a great story and world to explore.

Think of all the quests and scenarios you could create based around those ideas. Maybe you have to travel across the world trying to gather rare plague-restoring ingredients and negotiate shipments with suppliers. You could investigate new forms of spells and magic that combat the plague, turning the field of magic upside-down. Side-quests could explore the social struggles and collapse triggered by the plague, giving you "no right answer" scenarios. Perhaps you would have to undergo a series of trials to redeem mankind in the eyes of the gods. The inability to properly resurrect someone sheds light on the decadence of society and raises questions about the nature of life and death. Perhaps another nation sees the chaos and decides that the city is easy prey, and you have to deal with managing armies who are already devastated by disease - choosing who will be sacrificed in order to drive off the invaders.

Ah fuck it, I've been playing this game about 3 hours now. It's just gonna get even shittier, isn't it?

 

[hoverdog]

Ah fuck it, I've been playing this game about 3 hours now. It's just gonna get even shittier, isn't it?

It certainly won't get better.

 

[Akarnir]

Yet makes more sense than to still fight with guns after having mastered faster than light space travel. Or society and people keeping up with their current mundane lives when they have managed to transcend the laws of physics themselves.

 

[Shadenuat]

Stop right there you gamist scum! Noone playes NWN main campaign on my watch! I'm confiscating your CD. Now download Hex Coda and go play that instead.

 

[Infinitron]

Didn't you play NWN OC already, sea? I told you you could skip directly to the expansions. You play a different character in them.

 

[hiver]

Ah fuck it, I've been playing this game about 3 hours now. It's just gonna get even shittier, isn't it?

Yup.

So do they ever offer an explanation? Or did I put more thought into the story for Neverwinter Nights than the developers ever did?

No. (none that makes any sense) Yes.

 

[Black_Willow]

Oh, why does ANYBODY dies in D&D if there's a ressurect spell? Why can't you rezz Gorion in BG1, if it is possible with any of your party members? Why can't you rezz that chick who dies in NWN2?
OH TEH QUESTIONS!!!111!

 

[hoverdog]

I think we can all safely assume that having a resurrection spell in your roleplaying game is retarded and undermines the whole setting one way or another. Unless, of course, it's integrated into the plot itself (see: torment, planescape).

 

[evdk]

Oh, why does ANYBODY dies in D&D if there's a ressurect spell? Why can't you rezz Gorion in BG1, if it is possible with any of your party members? Why can't you rezz that chick who dies in NWN2?
OH TEH QUESTIONS!!!111!

5.000gp worth of diamond dust and IIRC the deceased's God can fuck you over anyway.

 

[Akarnir]

About the resurrection spell, I believe it is some obvious video game abstraction. The way I see it, you can only resurrect if the soul still clings to the body : in other word if the guy's just die a moment ago and his body is still warm (by warm i mean not completely trashed = disintegration, Terminal death...). And resurrection spell takes is actually difficult for the priest to cast.

Most cleric can only bring back the guy with 1hp : which means he is still near death and about to die again. Probably before you can even cast an healing spell. So all they can do is revive a small spark of life in him, if life isn't completely away (= if he is like in case described above).
Only the best Clerics can bring back the guy with full life = level 5 and above cleric spells. And those clerics are rare (the cleric in your party is supposed to be a badass when he reach that level, just like the other members).
So overall, Most priest suck at resurrection, and at best can only relight a small spark of life in a roughly intact body that just died 5 min ago.

Because It's your party, the heroes party, the guy will survive past the 1hp stage and be healed just in time.

 

[Alex]

Lots of diseases in normal D&D can circumvent cure disease, or require a special ingredient for its casting. Mummy Rot and Lycanthropy are classical examples of that. And ressurrecting someone still requires a 9th level cleric of at least wisdom 15. That isn't common by any measure, and even though the city probably had some, they surely could ask for any price on top of the costs for casting such a spell (5000 gp per casting).

 

[~RAGING BONER~]

its really a non-thinking plot; the Plague is irrelevant...at the end of the day it's all about Ancient Space Lizards trapped in another dimension inside a rock under the city.


*spoiler*


the whole point of the game is to showcase what the toolkit can do.

 

[Infinitron]

the whole point of the game is to showcase what the toolkit can do.

Or is it? http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/inde...cut-possibly-due-to-publisher-meddling.74097/

 

[Unkillable Cat]

In Chapter 3 you will encounter a dying soldier (or was it a dying soldier and his friend?) who spends his last breath telling you something. At that point in time, you will most likely have a large cache of healing potions and some scrolls of Raise Dead and/or Resurrection, and let's not get started on whether your character happens to be a Cleric. And still, Bioware decided that you should not even be given a chance to save the soldier. He dies. His body lies there, yet you cannot do anything with it. At no point during his monologous exposition are you allowed to interrupt and say "here, drink this Potion of Saving Your Ass".

So yes, it's going to get worse than this. And what becomes of Aribeth should not come as any surprise to you.

As for the expansions... they're better than the OC, but they're not "awesome" better. For the first one you create a new character, but for the second one you can import a new character... even an overpowered munchkin from the OC. Like I did. Made the whole thing pretty much irrelevant, but at least you get to recruit a familiar face as your NPC.

 

[Alex]

Lots of diseases in normal D&D can circumvent cure disease, or require a special ingredient for its casting. Mummy Rot and Lycanthropy are classical examples of that. And ressurrecting someone still requires a 9th level cleric of at least wisdom 15. That isn't common by any measure, and even though the city probably had some, they surely could ask for any price on top of the costs for casting such a spell (5000 gp per casting).

5000 gp is pocket change for the PC.

Sure, it isn't much to save an high level PC. But it certainly isn't a workable price to save an entire city.

 

[Alex]

Lots of diseases in normal D&D can circumvent cure disease, or require a special ingredient for its casting. Mummy Rot and Lycanthropy are classical examples of that. And ressurrecting someone still requires a 9th level cleric of at least wisdom 15. That isn't common by any measure, and even though the city probably had some, they surely could ask for any price on top of the costs for casting such a spell (5000 gp per casting).

5000 gp is pocket change for the PC.

Sure, it isn't much to save an high level PC. But it certainly isn't a workable price to save an entire city.

Let's not get into the practicality of this. The point that is being made here is that high magic setting should not be taken too seriously and that NWN story is too dumb to be dissected.

Well, Sea asked why cure disease and resurrection weren't working alternatives for dealing with the plague. Maybe NWN didn't do a good job of claring up that, but plague scenarios can work very well in D&D, even when you have high magic lying around, and I tried to explain why.

I have to disagree about not taking high magic settings seriously. I mean, they may not be a source of much drama, but they can be awesome to play into and figure out what you can and can't do. Wishes are always something rare to get a hold of. Even if you can cast them, they are expensive. And the whole point of the spell, even if it doesn't get played out like in this in modern editions, is wording the spell so it doesn't bit you in the ass.

My point here is that even with wishes, a high level D&D party can't do anything. They have very interesting, powerful resources. But they aren't all-powerful. So, it can be lots of fun to try to find inventive, strategic uses of those resources to accomplish something.

 

[Murk]

If you want to logic at a D&D game then here's the only question worth asking.

Why isn't everyone a Cleric? Even if you're afraid of high level adventure, just punch rats until you can shit out angels. We spend 20+ years doing nothing with our lives, if punching rats for 4 hours a day would give me the power to eye-laser and revive at age 20, I'd be punching rats.

Logistics and Dragons is a game that always ends with you losing.

 

[tuluse]

If you want to logic at a D&D game then here's the only question worth asking.

Why isn't everyone a Cleric? Even if you're afraid of high level adventure, just punch rats until you can shit out angels. We spend 20+ years doing nothing with our lives, if punching rats for 4 hours a day would give me the power to eye-laser and revive at age 20, I'd be punching rats.

Logistics and Dragons is a game that always ends with you losing.

You have to legitimately believe in a deity and follow their tenets.

 

[tuluse]

Following tenets could be difficult.

 

[Alex]

Er, your questions is actually quite easilly answered. A few reasons for why not everyone is a cleric:

1. Not everyone can be a cleric. In fact, even most priests aren't clerics. People who can use magic divine magic in D&D are kind of like saints. Well, they are certainly more common than saints, but still, most priests can't use magic.

2. Experience in any table worth playing is only doled out when people are actually in danger. Killing rats might work for the first level, but after that...

3. Being a cleric means you subscribe to a rigid code of conduct according to your god. This bites into your personal freedom something fierce.

4.Clerics need to be sincere. If all you are after is power, the gods won't give it to you. Well, unless this fits in with the philosophy of your church. But you still need genuine adoration for your deity.

5. Magic Users kick Clerics' asses any day of the week.

 

[hoverdog]

are we really discussing the plausibility of forgotten realms?

I remember trying to revive Gorion back when I was young. I took a max level druid, made him remember raise dead, and imported back to the beginning. Of course, I was unable to cast the spell on him, just like on any other character outside of the party.

High fantasy will always be all about suspension of disbelief. It won't be logical, hell, it won't even make sense. Just close your eyes mind and enjoy the ride.

 

[tuluse]

This is bullshit and only written in the rulebook to put in some semblance of sensibility. In a world where gods (who are embodiment of 'tenets') are a living, wish granting phenomenon there is absolutely no reason not to believe in them. Anything less is insanity. It would tantamount to not believing in gravity for example. All the atheistic characters in DnD are direct representations of People in our world in say, Faerun, which is of course nothing but fan service.

You have to believe in one over all the others to be a cleric. So the fact that they're all real makes that tricky.

are we really discussing the plausibility of forgotten realms?

I remember trying to revive Gorion back when I was young. I took a max level druid, made him remember raise dead, and imported back to the beginning. Of course, I was unable to cast the spell on him, just like on any other character outside of the party.

High fantasy will always be all about suspension of disbelief. It won't be logical, hell, it won't even make sense. Just close your eyes mind and enjoy the ride.

You know if Gorion was just disintegrated or something this wouldn't have even been a plot hole. Fucking Bioware.