Planescape Torment analysis

[inwoker]

wut?

 

[aleph]

From everything I've read on Planescape, it seems that it is amenable to a postmodernist analysis.

With this phrase alone, you have destroyed one of the classics for me.

 

[uhjghvt]

I think you'd be better off with freudian analysis, I mean Morte clearly has an oral fixation and if Deionarra didn't have teeth in her vag then Ravel surely did

 

[aboyd]

From everything I've read on Planescape, it seems that it is amenable to a postmodernist analysis.

With this phrase alone, you have destroyed one of the classics for me.

Cosign.

What an ignoble destination for any Planescape discussion.

 

[Radisshu]

Finally, we have the Nameless One. Trying to escape his fate of eternal damnation in Hell, he goes to Ravel to change his nature.

I think the problem is, though, that he tries to escape his fate by changing. If he had instead tried to accept whatever punishment he probably had earned, he would truly change and be free of guilt. Without any magical rituals whatsoever!

He didn't really want to change, he just wanted to escape death, to never have to be judged. And by doing that, his crimes through his amnesiac incarnations became even worse than those of the first incarnation and made the punishment even graver.

I think it's mostly about that: trying to escape from blame/punishment only makes things worse in the long run, and you'll always have to reap what you've sown in the end so it's better to just do it right away. Which isn't necessarily true in real life.

 

[Helton]

BTW, there is only one ending. Well, two, actually - you can also erase yourself from existence completely. But you don't get a cinematic for that.

Ah, but that isn't true. There are at least four.

You can:

Take to arms in the blood war.
Erase yourself from existance using the Blade of the Immortal.
Become a statue by staring into the eyes of a Medusa.
Become the eternal ruler of the Dead Nations by sitting upon the Silent King's throne.

My last play through, I think, was pretty close to complete. I've still never been a Chaosman, and I'm unsure whether playing through as a Thief reveals anything new. I never got far as a Thief.

I made a thread about the Circle of Zerthimon, which I thought was very well done. It's never explicitly stated, but Zerthimon was a traitor.

An old man finds himself at a crossroads. He cannot remember who he is or where he is going. He sits down to rest. Looking up, he sees a hag standing over him. She asks "And what is your last wish?"

Confused, he shrugs his shoulders. "What could it hurt", he thinks. "I wish I could remember who I was."

"Oh, my silly man-thing, but that was your first wish."

 

[Radisshu]

AND you can "break the plot" and be doomed to wander as an immortal eternally, but I guess that doesn't really count as a proper ending.

 

[Thydron]

Anyone else think there should have been an "evil" ending where TNO refused to accept his fate, either being forced into in anyway but hurting his companions, or managing to escape the blood war & maybe getting stuck in limbo or something instead?

 

[sqeecoo]

In my opinion, the main philosophical ideas in Torment would be: 'Changing the nature of a man only leads to torment', and 'You can only escape your fate to a more painful one'.

Most important characters in Torment are an illustration of those concepts:
Morte, in nature a lying, knowledge hungry skull from the pillar, is changed into his Good self by his guilt. Naturally, this guild torments him. (note: Morte is the only fallen-from-grace who doesn't long for his former existance)
Dak'kon, his nature changed by his belief, a fallen from grace githzerai. Seeking to escape his fate of not knowing himself and being a broken shell, he stumbles into a more painful one, at least for a githzerai - eternal slavery to the Nameless one.
Nordom's change of nature and fall from grace are caused by the planes - specifically, Limbo. He is tormented by this loss, maybe more than other characters. As other FFGs, he loses his wings.
Fall-from-grace is changed by her suffering in Baator. She lies to herself that she is happy with her new nature, but like in the others' cases, she is tormented by the loss.
Trias, his nature changed by greed (I think), has fallen from his celestial home, and, of course, lost his wings. Like the others, he is tormented.
Pharod, a more tragic character, who is changed by greed. In trying to escape his fate on the Pillar of Skulls, he changes from a rich nobleman into the King of Rags, but this only brings him even more suffering.
Fhjull is changed by the betrayal of Trias, and, obviously, loses his wings.

On the other hand, there are those characters who accept their nature and fate. Vhailor and Ignus, rather than changing their natures, embrace them in their purest form. Thus, Vhailor becomes a creature of pure justice, and Ignus a creature of fire and chaos. They are the ones least tormented, and nearly happy.
Also, Ravel knows that her fate is that of punishment in the maze, and that in trying to escape the maze, she would only receive further suffering. So she accepts that fate, and her nature remains unchanged.

Finally, we have the Nameless One. Trying to escape his fate of eternal damnation in Hell, he goes to Ravel to change his nature. But his new fate is much worse than his previous one, and his new nature only brings him torment. So, during the course of the game, he finally accepts his true fate, his true nature, and in regaining them, he leaves his torments behind.
Thus, the question of the game isn't as much "What can change the nature of a man", but rather "What is the price for changing one's nature".
[/repost to prove how teh smart I am and to have some interesting discussion for a change]

Post whatever random shit goes through your brains too.

I like your analysis, but I didn't get this kind of destiny "vibe" you seem to have noticed. The "point" is, I feel, more focused on the fact that despite the torment and one's nature, people *can* change, and beliefs and (good) intentions have huge power, even if things don't always turn out good. That's basically your answer to TTO in the last dialogue.

However, you do make a good point that changing your nature comes at a price.

 

[Azarkon]

I thought it was more to the effect of - anything can change the nature of a man, so long as you believe in it, but just because you change, does not mean you are absolved of responsibility for your actions. Indeed, truly changing requires you to face up to your past, because running from it is what got you (the original incarnation) into this bind in the first place. Agreeing to owe up to the crimes of your past selves - that is the real change.

So yes, the price of change is a significant theme of the game, but I don't think the message is as bleak as "changing leads to even more pain." I see the ending as a sort of freedom from torment - yes, TNO has to go off and fight the Blood War for all eternity, but at least he does so knowing that he's changed, that he's faced up to his past. That, combined with having knowledge of the self, presumably leads to a more sanguine existence (though I can see an argument whereby you argue that the tradeoff is between the torment of truth and the bliss of eternal ignorance).

Similarly, I think it's somewhat problematic to say that trying to change your fate is the same as trying to change your nature. The original incarnation was not trying to change his nature; he was trying to change his fate - he was going to hell for beng an evil bastard, but he didn't want to go to hell, so he went to Ravel to become immortal. Yes, his reasoning is that it would allow him to atone for his actions, but that's not what drove him to seek immortality. The fear of death and hell was what drove him, which implies that he didn't really change. He was still very much a selfish bastard who cared only for his own well-being (doing good for the sake of not having to go to hell), and that's the nature that you - by accepting the punishment even though you're technically innocent - are changing.

 

[Kz3r0]

Well, this is a daunting task.
Ps:T It's an encompassing philosophical masterpiece for me.
It blends masterfully the greek conception of human beings that are nothing but gods' puppets, predestined to an inane existence, the christian conception of sin, guilt and redemption, the concept of karma,equilibrium and reincarnation of the oriental philosophies , and finally the nietzschian attitude, be yourself, whithout hypocrisy and moral misconceptions.
It's how all of this works so smoothly and in a compelling and intriguing manner that makes of Ps:T a work of pure art, and the best game of all the times.

 

[Elwro]

Re: Planescape as an example of postmodernist themes

From everything I've read on Planescape, it seems that it is amenable to a postmodernist analysis. For example, the character being named The Nameless One signifies that the character doesnt and even shouldnt have a true transcedental meaning or narrative.

But let's introduce the epistemic perspective here. Does he not have a name at all, or does he just not know his name? Maybe the narrative is there, but hidden at start.

 

[Lumpy]

Become a statue by staring into the eyes of a Medusa.

Holy fucking shit. Really? Where and how?

The feminist perspective would fit in nicely too - but we can just copypaste Merilinda's.

 

[Korgan]

Hmm. Nice analysis. Personally, I've always thought that PsT's motifs of pain/suffering and the possibility or impossibility of changing human nature are closely connected. When all is said and done, it is pain that can change the nature of a man. Belief, regret, etc are just excuses for wishing to escape what one is going through or has become. The change itself is also pain, as it can bring fear, confusion and disillusionment. And, finally, after the change happens, one's new self can find that the suffering is still there - perhaps worse than it used to be. However, this is the only path, and everyone walks it whether they want to or not. Doesn't sound too optimistic, but hope is still in front of you all the time. Like a carrot on a stick, but that's its purpose, after all.

 

[Vaarna_Aarne]

I believe the point was that in the end, EVERYTHING can change the nature of a man. It's just a matter of believing in it.

 

[Binary]

Post whatever random shit goes through your brains too.

PST is as boring as it gets

 

[Helton]

Holy fucking shit. Really? Where and how?

I can't tell if you're being facetious, but one of the whores in the brothel is a Medusa. Insist on looking her in the eyes.

 

[Zomg]

I believe the point was that in the end, EVERYTHING can change the nature of a man. It's just a matter of believing in it.

The nature of the roleplaying gives each playthrough individual depth. You don't have to create a grand theory of PS:T that covers every contingency.

 

[Vaarna_Aarne]

I believe the point was that in the end, EVERYTHING can change the nature of a man. It's just a matter of believing in it.

The nature of the roleplaying gives each playthrough individual depth. You don't have to create a grand theory of PS:T that covers every contingency.

Hence the words "I believe."

But really, PS:T takes the cake in that regard. It's verily the ONLY game that provides individual depth, in my experience.

 

[Binary]

But really, PS:T takes the cake in that regard. It's verily the ONLY game that provides individual depth, in my experience.

There is enough individual depth provided in a few Hentai RPGs I know

 

[Darth Roxor]

So, if we are enslaving entire codex with necromancy, I'll jump the bandwagon

I always had the impression she was seriously powerful and dangerous. She didn't seem scared of the Lady of Pain at all.

I also think she wasn't scared of the Lady. Didn't someone in the game (Vrischika?) say that she was mazed for challenging the Lady by standing in the middle of Sigil and yelling a riddle (Probably the one about the nature of a man)?

 

[MetalCraze]

Planescape is the only game that I wish I've never played.
Just to complete it again not knowing anything about it.

 

[JarlFrank]

Planescape is the only game that I wish I've never played.
Just to complete it again not knowing anything about it.

Being able to immediately forget all about PST after each playthrough just to play it again would be similar to a perpetual orgasm.

 

[Vaarna_Aarne]

Planescape is the only game that I wish I've never played.
Just to complete it again not knowing anything about it.

Being able to immediately forget all about PST after each playthrough just to play it again would be similar to a perpetual orgasm.

If Avellone ever makes a remake that's even better, it must hypnotize you every time you finish it and delete all the saves.

 

[inwoker]

Recommend me some book or movie that has similar to pst 'I wish I forget and watch/read again'.