Pillars of Eternity Beta Discussion [GAME RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

[Infinitron]

There are tons of worse games with worse skill systems that easily implemented just a handful very hard skill checks, a bunch of medium ones and a couple of easy ones. Fucking DA:O does this. NWN. It ain't that fucking hard implementing varied skill checks FFS.

You don't know what we're talking about, do you

 

[Grunker]

There are tons of worse games with worse skill systems that easily implemented just a handful very hard skill checks, a bunch of medium ones and a couple of easy ones. Fucking DA:O does this. NWN. It ain't that fucking hard implementing varied skill checks FFS.

You don't know what we're talking about, do you

? You are talking about the fact that there is no incentive to spread out skill points. Sawyer's solution is to enforce a cap per level so you have to spread them out.

If I misunderstood I'm sorry, mastah

 

[Infinitron]

? You are talking about the fact that there is no incentive to spread out skill points. Sawyer's solution is to enforce a cap per level so you have to spread them out.

O_o No, that's not his solution.

There aren't even any skill points to distribute any more. You pick a talent every two levels. Talents increase skills by +1 for two different skills, +2 to one skill, or +4 points to one skill. So the game definitely supports having a skill that's numerically higher than your level.

 

[Grunker]

Then I misunderstood him yeah, sorry. What happened to the philosophy of never having to choose between combat-asset and non-combat asset?

 

[Infinitron]

Then I misunderstood him yeah, sorry. What happened to the philosophy of never having to choose between combat-asset and non-combat asset?

That philosophy (mentioned in one Tim Cain Kickstarter update way back in 2012 and never again) never made it into the game. All character development choices are supposed to provide combat utility.

The problem with the skills is that they didn't provide enough combat utility (and couldn't, because then they'd become more like stats, ie indispensable attributes that could't be safely dumped), so they were attached to Talents with obvious combat utility.

 

[Grunker]

I see. Sorry I muddled the debat with my misunderstanding

 

[Sensuki]

Besides, I think we know that JES doesn't want this game to rely on scripted skill checks for balancing purposes at all.

But that IS the problem, it's not the combat stuff that matters. People pick high skills because of the RPG design.

 

[Athelas]

What, pray tell, is the RPG design?

Also, I'm sure people will give all their partymembers the same points in Athletics to sync up the moment they fatigue. Or at least I will.

 

[Sensuki]

As long as the game has skill checks for the highest skill level AND you can't have two skills maxed, people will max one skill so they can experience all of the options available for that skill in the game. If you decide to dabble in two skills - you miss out on those higher options and if you want to experience those options you need to play the game again. If I'm going to replay a replayable game like PE, then I'm going to go through characters one by one each with a different maxed skill. Playthrough 1 - Max Athletics, Playthrough 2 Max Lore etc etc so eventually I get to see all of the options the game has to offer.

If the game does not promote dabbling multiple skills, then why bother doing it?

I haven't seen a game that checks two skills at once before, but that would solve the issue here and it would be relatively easy to do considering there are only five skills. It would require a bit of re-writing for the Scripted Interactions and stuff though most likely.

 

[Athelas]

I'm not sure if that's entirely the case. Aren't lockpicks supposed to compensate for a low Mechanics skill? And I believe you can 'succeed' some Athletics checks with an insufficient skill, you just get an injury.

Not in all respects though, i.e. the obvious thing to do will be maxing Lore on your main character.

 

[Sensuki]

It's not about those checks. Josh is trying to promote players dabbling in multiple skills on characters. If that's going to happen the game needs to check two skills at once in dialogue/scripted interactions on occasion and if the player/party member cannot pass the check then that option is locked out.

That's just my theory anyway. However it probably would have helped if they identified that problem themselves and then they could have designed around it.

 

[Athelas]

I think the goal was to have characters dabble in multiple skills for the systemic benefits they give. Though they arguably haven't achieved that (the Lore skill being the biggest offender).

 

[Sensuki]

I think players are more interested in unlocking options in non-combat to be honest. I certainly don't pick skills based on their combat benefits, except to make sure my PC puts leftovers into Athletics.

I expressed my concern that tying combat benefits to skills was a bad idea back when I did that huuge post about the Crafting skill.

 

[Diablo169]

Literally the more I read about this game the less excited I get. How on earth can you fuck up an infinity engine spiritual sequel? I guess we'll find out.

 

[Infinitron]

I think the goal was to have characters dabble in multiple skills for the systemic benefits they give. Though they arguably haven't achieved that (the Lore skill being the biggest offender).

The point, I think, is that they really can't tie critical combat benefits to skills because that goes against player expectations of what "skills" in an RPG of this type are. The expectation is that shouldn't feel painful to have 0 in a skill the same way it feels painful to have 3 in a primary attribute.

Character with 3 Strength = weird gimmick build that should be weird to use, even if not unviable. Character with 0 in Lore = completely normal.

What the skills have now is basically "flavor" combat benefits that are a little bonus to make the skill feel more worthwhile for when you're not using it for skill checks. Which is also nice and important, but serves a different purpose.

 

[Bester]

I honestly don't know how sensuki or others can play this game. It's quite possible that my computer isn't powerful enough to handle the game, but i'm shocked that this game needs more computational power than both skyrim and fallout:new vegas, both of which play perfectly fine on my computer.

I remember thinking that about the Wasteland2 beta. I had 15-20fps on max graphics in beta. I now have 60 at all times. They'll optimize stuff later.

Fuck the easy way out, DT makes sense, DR doesnt. taking a dagger to a breastplate and expecting it to work is retarded.

There are openings even when a guy is completely clad in armor. The dagger can't damage much against these guys because it can't reach vital areas, hence smaller damage. Doesn't it make sense?

 

[Lhynn]

Fuck the easy way out, DT makes sense, DR doesnt. taking a dagger to a breastplate and expecting it to work is retarded.

There are openings even when a guy is completely clad in armor. The dagger can't damage much against these guys because it can't reach vital areas, hence smaller damage. Doesn't it make sense?

Not on top of DT, and not against heavier stuff like a huge boulder or smaller stuff like a kids punch, "you take 23% less damage from both". Skills and called shots could allow you to sacrifice chance to hit to hit in a more vulnerable, you dont need a shitty DR that serves no function but to balance numbers.

 

[Chaotic_Heretic]

Sensuki can't Party members be used for scripted skill checks? WTF?
Seems like a really cheap way to artificailly introduce repla value (assuming the checks give access to significant content...Which it won't casue balance)

 

[Metal Hurlant]

Literally the more I read about this game the less excited I get. How on earth can you fuck up an infinity engine spiritual sequel? I guess we'll find out.

I recall making a post where I said some of the things I think Obsidian went wrong with the game. No experience with an open Beta and releasing Mac/Linux versions. Mentioned the fact they seem to be 6 months behind where they should be (oh look September when I made that post and the game is delayed to Q1 2015, possibly March and is around 6 months). Also couldn't see how the Mac and Linux versions could possibly be released this year. Ultimately not realising the implications of the stretch goals in the original Kickstarter. There's also been some design decisions that have been head turning especially in recent months and the game is becoming one big mess. They introduce new things and it divides the community. There doesn't seem to be any coherent vision anymore.

 

[imweasel]

How on earth can you fuck up an infinity engine spiritual sequel?

 

[Sensuki]

Using floating points for damage values in Pillars of Eternity was a notoriously bad idea IMO. It's so stupid.

 

[Twiglard]

That doesn't have stuff to do with floating point math and its bitchiness level. Don't confuse me with confusing statements please.

But will there be tasteful burst from 1 hex away?

 

[Sensuki]

I was just making a general statement, actually. Had nothing to do with what you said.

 

[Twiglard]

You used terminology you don't yourself understand. I won't argue about that anymore, go have the last word.

 

[Sensuki]

Are you sure? I don't think you understand what I meant actually

Pillars of Eternity calculates damage in decimals rather than integers, and they are using floating points to store them in C#. That is what I meant when I said floating points. You were referring to the actual mathematics likely between floating point maths and standard decimal maths - I was not talking about that.

Way to get aggressive over nothing *shrug*