Pillars of Eternity Beta Discussion [GAME RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

[Crooked Bee]

So the Bugsidian reputation is well-deserved after all?

 

[Sensuki]

I am surprised NCarver only replied to already known bugs, rather than new ones that they probably hadn't found.

Bester reckons the bugs are their programmers' fault, although that they did do a very good job in creating what they have with the older Unity versions.

 

[Athelas]

Never attribute to incompetence that which can be blamed on Unity.

 

[Duraframe300]

So the Bugsidian reputation is well-deserved after all?

In seriousness. depends entirly on release.

Would be funny though if PoE broke the *Not-so-Bugsidian* streak they had going with DSIII and South Park.

Edit: I still very much think it will get there though. With the biggest improvements in the bug departement happening around one month before release.

 

[Sensuki]

Josh on Skills

We expected players to either invest in single skills or split their points between two skills per character. Nothing "breaks" by investing in one skill, but the investment itself isn't interesting. Selecting Abilities and Talents is more interesting because those choices have larger and more diverse impacts on how the characters play.

My reply

Why not give the player incentive to pick two skills instead of one, rather than limiting their ability to max a skill?

 

[Rake]

So the Bugsidian reputation is well-deserved after all?

In seriousness. depends entirly on release.

Would be funny though if PoE broke the *Not-so-Bugsidian* streak they had going with DSIII and South Park.

Edit: I still very much think it will get there though. With the biggest improvements in the bug departement happening around one month before release.

That. With Josh changing the system every other day, plus new animations, effects and UI being added constantly, i won't excpect much headway in the bug department for now.

 

[Grunker]

Josh on Skills

We expected players to either invest in single skills or split their points between two skills per character. Nothing "breaks" by investing in one skill, but the investment itself isn't interesting. Selecting Abilities and Talents is more interesting because those choices have larger and more diverse impacts on how the characters play.

Control dat playa experience bro

Starting to get a bit selective in your criticism of Sawyer? Wasn't more than three weeks ago you complained about the fact that there was no reason to invest in more than 1 skill. Now he expresses agreement with you.

 

[Sensuki]

Misread what he said actually. I thought he said "Talents and Skills" and was trying to justify the new system but he said "Abilities and Talents".

 

[Hormalakh]

After multiple beta patches, I believe that I can say what my impressions of the game are. The patches have made several changes over time, but some of the most glaring flaws continue to remain in the game and it has lead me to believe that these are actual choice that they wish to maintain.

At this point, I cannot play the beta any longer. I've placed way too much time on this game for it to consistently destroy any sort of progress that I make towards it. Every game that I've played has ended in a crash that puts me off from playing the game for a whole week. The incredibly long load times, shitty combat interface/UI/mechanics, and jack-in-the-box crashes that happen at the most inopportune times has at this point made me start to regret ever backing this game and to stop playing the beta totally.

Furthermore, in the past, i quite often would hedge on josh's design choices by saying that it's hard to say how the game would play and judgements cannot be made at those points. Now that the beta is out and enough time has been wasted on playing this beta, I have begun to side with those who disagree vehemently with Josh's choices and design decisions. Josh's insistence that the game be "gamist" via contrived and questionable design choices fails initially in the inability of Obsidian to properly implement the choices in the first place. Furthermore, it seems that the designers have failed to consider pitfalls in their design and consistently change how the game plays with every edition. This is not iteration, it's throwing darts at a board blind-folded and hoping to hit the bull's eye. A monkey on a typewriter can write Shakespeare given enough paper and time. This is how the beta feels to me: a failed design without a clear vision and now a scramble to salvage what remains of the original idea.

I honestly don't know how sensuki or others can play this game. It's quite possible that my computer isn't powerful enough to handle the game, but i'm shocked that this game needs more computational power than both skyrim and fallout:new vegas, both of which play perfectly fine on my computer.

 

[Hormalakh]

That. With Josh changing the system every other day, plus new animations, effects and UI being added constantly, i won't excpect much headway in the bug department for now.

But Beta means FEATURE COMPLETE silly!

 

[Sensuki]

I've only had one crash and that was in v301 I think. Although I have 16GB RAM.

I'm sorry that you're pissed off and I understand the disappointment. Hopefully you can still spare a moment or two down the line if I need you for some UI mockups

 

[Infinitron]

Why not give the player incentive to pick two skills instead of one, rather than limiting their ability to max a skill?

How is he limiting it? If you're dead-set on becoming a SKILL MASTER of Athletics then take all the Talents that improve it.

You sound like you want there to be an incentive to pick two skills, but at the same time have maxing one skill be completely painless. It can't really work like that.

 

[Hormalakh]

yeah i can do mock-ups if you wish. i'm not going to be on this thread much more so just pm me if you want something.

 

[Duraframe300]

After multiple beta patches, I believe that I can say what my impressions of the game are. The patches have made several changes over time, but some of the most glaring flaws continue to remain in the game and it has lead me to believe that these are actual choice that they wish to maintain.

At this point, I cannot play the beta any longer. I've placed way too much time on this game for it to consistently destroy any sort of progress that I make towards it. Every game that I've played has ended in a crash that puts me off from playing the game for a whole week. The incredibly long load times, shitty combat interface/UI/mechanics, and jack-in-the-box crashes that happen at the most inopportune times has at this point made me start to regret ever backing this game and to stop playing the beta totally.

Furthermore, in the past, i quite often would hedge on josh's design choices by saying that it's hard to say how the game would play and judgements cannot be made at those points. Now that the beta is out and enough time has been wasted on playing this beta, I have begun to side with those who disagree vehemently with Josh's choices and design decisions. Josh's insistence that the game be "gamist" via contrived and questionable design choices fails initially in the inability of Obsidian to properly implement the choices in the first place. Furthermore, it seems that the designers have failed to consider pitfalls in their design and consistently change how the game plays with every edition. This is not iteration, it's throwing darts at a board blind-folded and hoping to hit the bull's eye. A monkey on a typewriter can write Shakespeare given enough paper and time. This is how the beta feels to me: a failed design without a clear vision and now a scramble to salvage what remains of the original idea.

I honestly don't know how sensuki or others can play this game. It's quite possible that my computer isn't powerful enough to handle the game, but i'm shocked that this game needs more computational power than both skyrim and fallout:new vegas, both of which play perfectly fine on my computer.

Good idea. Regardless of how the game will turn out, you will enjoy it more in the end by getting some distance till release.

 

[Sensuki]

You sound like you want there to be an incentive to pick two skills, but at the same time have maxing one skill be completely painless. It can't really work like that.

Yes it can. Checks that require multiple attributes together, and multiple skills together would encourage spreading attributes / spreading skill points.

Designers encourage skill maxing through their skill check designs. If they are unhappy with the way they are playing their game they should make more interesting options.

Tying skills to Talents is not more interesting, it's more limiting - basically an RQ at the players for playing the way that the game encourages.

 

[Lhynn]

DT is causing many problems though, it makes the numbers extremely hard to balance. It makes Attack Speed shit compared to straight damage and thus makes faster, lower damage weapons & spells worthless.

I think moving DT to shields would be better, and more intuitive.

Fuck the easy way out, DT makes sense, DR doesnt. taking a dagger to a breastplate and expecting it to work is retarded and the one wielding it should die for not looking for a more vulnerable spot. You have people with superpowers and supa skillz and you cant figure out a way to make a dagger useful?
While we are at it fuck balance, balance is predictable, mindless and boring. Kinda like sawyer.

I know my criticism isnt especially constructive, but man, DR is so uninteresting and shallow.

 

[Grunker]

Why not give the player incentive to pick two skills instead of one, rather than limiting their ability to max a skill?

How is he limiting it? If you're dead-set on becoming a SKILL MASTER of Athletics then take all the Talents that improve it.

You sound like you want there to be an incentive to pick two skills, but at the same time have maxing one skill be completely painless. It can't really work like that.

Nah, the problem (for me) is that he is brute forcing it. He's not really balancing maxing vs. splitting which would require sensible skill checks (lots of lower level, a few really high level skill checks). He is just brute forcing you by capping skill progression. I guess it can work, I'm just trying to explain the gripe.

 

[Sensuki]

Fuck the easy way out, DT makes sense, DR doesnt. taking a dagger to a breastplate and expecting it to work is retarded and the one wielding it should die for not looking for a more vulnerable spot. You have people with superpowers and supa skillz and you cant figure out a way to make a dagger useful?
While we are at it fuck balance, balance is predictable, mindless and boring. Kinda like sawyer.

I know my criticism isnt especially constructive, but man, DR is so uninteresting and shallow.

DT would be fine if damage increments were also integers. But they aren't.

Personally I would MUCH RATHER integers than percentages because it's easier for the player to understand, but I doubt they'll switch from percentages.

 

[Infinitron]

Yes it can. Checks that require multiple attributes together, and multiple skills together would encourage spreading attributes / spreading skill points.

Designers encourage skill maxing through their skill check designs. If they are unhappy with the way they are playing their game they should make more interesting options.

Tying skills to Talents is not more interesting, it's more limiting - basically an RQ at the players for playing the way that the game encourages.

I'm sure you don't expect Josh to order his designers and writers to come up with contrived skill check situations just to justify the existence of a weak and minor independent skill system. It's just not worth the effort.

 

[Sensuki]

No I don't expect him to come up with contrived skill check situations. That would be dumb, however I'm sure there's plenty of skill checks that could use a combination of stuff.

Bypass a trap in a scripted interaction - perhaps you need to stealth past the trap trigger and then disable it with mechanics etc

Not very difficult with just 5 skills IMO.

Actually I think it would be really easy, and add quite a bit of flavor. Lore would be really easy to add with anything.

Bypass trap in scripted interaction - need Lore to identify the past civilization/culture and the styles of traps they used historically, and Mechanics to disable it.

 

[Infinitron]

No I don't expect him to come up with contrived skill check situations. That would be dumb, however I'm sure there's plenty of skill checks that could use a combination of stuff.

Bypass a trap in a scripted interaction - perhaps you need to stealth past the trap trigger and then disable it with mechanics etc

Not very difficult with just 5 skills IMO.

It is contrived if you're always forbidden from using your other party members (each one specialized in a different skill) to pass each one of those checks.

 

[tuluse]

Nah, the problem (for me) is that he is brute forcing it. He's not really balancing maxing vs. splitting which would require sensible skill checks (lots of lower level, a few really high level skill checks). He is just brute forcing you by capping skill progression. I guess it can work, I'm just trying to explain the gripe.

Or he could come up with balanced systemic benefits like he said he would ^_^

 

[Sensuki]

It is contrived if you're always forbidden from using your other party members (each one specialized in a different skill) to pass each one of those checks.

Those aren't the situations that matter. I imagine that the Companions will have a wide array of skills covered, what matters is balancing the checks for PC only/per-unit only.

Stealth, Survival and Athletics are very easy to combine with anything because they have per-character applicability. Lore and Mechanics are more difficult.

edit: Expeditions: Conquistador had scripted interactions as well, they were pretty awesome actually - way better than the PE ones. You got to choose followers to do different tasks and all sorts of stuff, loved it.

 

[Infinitron]

Nah, the problem (for me) is that he is brute forcing it. He's not really balancing maxing vs. splitting which would require sensible skill checks (lots of lower level, a few really high level skill checks). He is just brute forcing you by capping skill progression. I guess it can work, I'm just trying to explain the gripe.

Or he could come up with balanced systemic benefits like he said he would ^_^

He can't, and here's why: Skills aren't stats.

Take two stats from your typical stat system. Say, a "Strength" stat which increases the damage you do upon hitting, and a "Dex" stat which increases your chance of hitting. The two stats are directly connected with one another - in a wide variety of situations, dumping one stat will actually make the other one less useful as well. If you dump Strength and are barely doing any damage against a high DT foe, your high Dex won't save you. If you dump Dex and can't hit a nimble foe, your high Strength won't save you.

Your typical skills in a skill system aren't like that. Increasing lockpicking at the expense of lore means you have less lore, but the high lockpicking in and of itself is always a pure linearly increasing benefit for your character.

It's true that consistently clever skill check design can get around this, but I think that in this sort of game that could end up feeling contrived and disconnected. (text adventure sequence after text adventure sequence where your main character mysteriously gets separated from the rest of his party and has to get himself out of some crazy trap situation that requires lockpicking, athletics AND lore!)

Besides, I think we know that JES doesn't want this game to rely on scripted skill checks for balancing purposes at all.

 

[Grunker]

There are tons of worse games with worse skill systems that easily implemented just a handful very hard skill checks, a bunch of medium ones and a couple of easy ones. Fucking DA:O does this. NWN. It ain't that fucking hard implementing varied skill checks FFS.