Putting the 'role' back in role-playing games since 2002.
Donate to Codex
Good Old Games
  • Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.

    "This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.

Pillars of Eternity Beta Discussion [GAME RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

tuluse

Arcane
Joined
Jul 20, 2008
Messages
11,400
Serpent in the Staglands Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Shadorwun: Hong Kong
mutonizer

Regarding stealth: it lets you get closer to enemies, since some abilities are short ranged this can be useful for starting things off.

Regarding fatigue: going down faster in combat is intentional and part of the system as explained. Combat is meant to be a tiring event. As for, well dude X wasn't even doing anything argument, you just have to understand this is an abstraction, and real people wouldn't just be chilling while their friends fighting monsters.
 

Sensuki

Arcane
Joined
Oct 26, 2012
Messages
9,800
Location
New North Korea
Codex 2014 Serpent in the Staglands Shadorwun: Hong Kong A Beautifully Desolate Campaign
It's in CharacterStats, as part of the main CharacterStats.Update(), which is constantly looping I believe.

I don't know if it actually applies fatigue to the characters in combat though (as in when the time is reached), I know the counter loops. You're better at this than I am though.
 

mutonizer

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Sep 4, 2014
Messages
1,041
Regarding stealth: it lets you get closer to enemies, since some abilities are short ranged this can be useful for starting things off.

On stealth, all I have to say is this: http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/68365-v278-issue-stealth-mechanics/
Anyone not having a fundamental problem with the mechanic, I cannot talk to, we're not on the same universe, sorry.

Regarding fatigue: going down faster in combat is intentional and part of the system as explained. Combat is meant to be a tiring event. As for, well dude X wasn't even doing anything argument, you just have to understand this is an abstraction, and real people wouldn't just be chilling while their friends fighting monsters.
I know, just saying. Not a problem with me, I already know I'll edit my saves for camping supplies just so that I can try and enjoy the game.

I don't know if it actually applies fatigue to the characters in combat though (as in when the time is reached), I know the counter loops. You're better at this than I am though.
The update is done via the set property of fatiguelevel directly, so I "think" it doesn't care if it's in combat or not, it just loops and loops until a threshold is reached, then fatigue is automatically updated. Combat just makes things tick with bigger numbers, reduced by athletics.
Could be wrong though :)
 

Shannow

Waster of Time
Joined
Sep 15, 2006
Messages
6,386
Location
Finnegan's Wake
Secondly: People going back to kill mobs they just spared may be stupid, but it's not a "problem". It's just Sawyer wanting to control how people play, again.

bullshit. you can still go back and kill them. it's just that you won't get double xp out of that behaviour.
Didn't say he would succeed, you mouthbreathing, shitslurping dumbfuck. Go play in traffic.
:troll:
 

mutonizer

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Sep 4, 2014
Messages
1,041
Yeah pretty sure that is just the fatigue counter, not the actual application of the status effect.

Hmm, could be.
Doesn't this mean that it's checking and applying the fatigue though everytime Fatigue is updated, which is done via FatigueUpdate()?
public float Fatigue
{
get
{
return this.m_fatigueAccrued;
}
set
{
CharacterStats.FatigueLevel fatigueLevel1 = this.GetFatigueLevel();
this.m_fatigueAccrued = value;
CharacterStats.FatigueLevel fatigueLevel2 = this.GetFatigueLevel();
if (fatigueLevel1 == fatigueLevel2)
return;
this.ClearEffectFromAffliction("Fatigue");
if (fatigueLevel2 != CharacterStats.FatigueLevel.None)
this.ApplyAffliction(AfflictionData.GetFatigueAffliction(fatigueLevel2));
if (this.OnFatigueLevelChanged == null)
return;
this.OnFatigueLevelChanged(fatigueLevel2);
}
}
 

mutonizer

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Sep 4, 2014
Messages
1,041
mutonizer, the important bit is when it applies the Affliction which is GetFatigueAffliction()
Pretty sure it's not. ApplyAffliction() is what matters here and it's disconnected from any combat checks as far as I could see.

Not a big deal though.

Tuluse >
Maybe, maybe not is your answer.
Might be able to test it with a fast running character, aggro some mob, and run around in circle for some time, see if fatigue triggers at any point.
 

4too

Arcane
Joined
May 20, 2004
Messages
288
Air Cleaving NEWS: The Horns of Dilemma Toot An Age Old Duality!



Once Upon A Time on Page 187…

Lhyan said:
Hormalakh said:
Combat XP? You mean kiddie babbie mode? Where you have to be given sweeties everytime you do something in game so you feel good about yourself?

So disappointed that Josh isn't sticking to his guns on this. If your combat experience is shit, then fix your combat. Don't polish that turd with combat xp.

So disappointed. Might as well put in romances too because all the babbies are whining.


Shup up you asshole. Xp is not a candy.



Candy? … recall another 'candy' crunched in the cross fire of cultured mixed media debate.

PoE, ... XP ... will it be INNER or OUTER directed? Inquiring memes want to know … ;)

AND await with 'baited' pantings whether … XP's one true metaphor IS a BREATH MINT!


Is XP a lonely 'candy mint', a mere self absorbed / obsessed selfish indulgence, or an expansive 'breathe mint', an enhancing inducement for pair bonding with a grander social milieu!



What better angels to weigh in on the balance then the mythic CERTS TWINS! :D





4too
 

MicoSelva

backlog digger
Patron
Joined
Sep 10, 2010
Messages
7,484
Location
Vigil's Keep
Codex 2012 Codex 2013 Codex 2014 PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015 Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire Make the Codex Great Again! Grab the Codex by the pussy Insert Title Here RPG Wokedex Strap Yourselves In Codex Year of the Donut Codex+ Now Streaming! Enjoy the Revolution! Another revolution around the sun that is. Serpent in the Staglands Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Divinity: Original Sin 2 Bubbles In Memoria A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. Pathfinder: Wrath I helped put crap in Monomyth
Sensuki, I have just watched your review of build 278 of the backer beta. It was pretty perceptive and well made (good catch on the shadow mapping), but regarding that commercial parody/impersonation at the ad... Do not ever do that again. Please. Just don't.

As you have already figured out, the music could be a little louder.

Looking forward to (your review of) the next build. :bro:
 

Hormalakh

Magister
Joined
Nov 27, 2012
Messages
1,503
lore is pretty bullshit as a skill, i agree. i can think of a few ways to make the skill more interesting.

here's one: as you fight and kill more and more of an enemy type, your combat effectiveness (e.g. attack damage/crit%/attack speed, etc) increases when fighting that particular type of enemy. The rate of improvement in combat effectiveness is based on an equation that utilizes the cumulative lore skill of the party.

So for example, let's say that for the first 100 goblins you kill, each party member's % crit increases by 1% against goblins. then the next increase of crit% is when you kill 250 (total 2%), 500(total 5%), 750(total 7%), 1200(total 12%) goblins respectively. How does the lore skill come into play? Well as your cumulative lore level is increased, the number you need to kill for each increase decreases by dividing your cumulative party lore level (all the lore levels added up) divided by number of party members. So if you have 5 party members with lore skill levels of 1,4,3,5,5, your cumulative party lore level is 18. Divided by 5 (# of party members) is 3.6. You then divide each crit% increase by this number. So instead of 100, 250, 500, 750, 1200, you have to kill 28, 70, 139, 209, 334 to get the same crit increase.

Other equations can be used as well as other combat effectiveness attributes (speed) to fine-tune the best range, rate of increase, and value for skill.
This is a good way of incentivizing players to enter combat (as opposed to combat XP).
 

Answermancer

Educated
Joined
Feb 27, 2014
Messages
67
Location
Seattle, WA
I agree on the principle that combat XP gear people into killing everything. I even killed some Orcs in D:OS that I had talked my way past because I wanted that early XP (later in the game I would not have bothered though). As a GM I had many a player (the younger the more likely) that wanted combat solution just because they knew it was the best way to earn XP.
That's a source of constant amazement to me. Bit like achievements and whatnot.
Do you really feel compelled by the game to do it and feel bad/frustrated if not doing it? I don't understand the thought process, it's really fascinating to me :)

I've seen you make the same claim on the Obsidian forums and if you're being serious, it's really not that hard to understand or explain the thought process. It's a simple matter of incentives. By letting you get twice as much XP by beating a quest peacefully and then murdering everyone involved, the game incentivizes this behavior for people who care about getting max XP. Even if it's not something they might want to do from a roleplaying perspective, the incentive is still there. Different people respond to incentives differently and if you're really not temped by this sort of thing then so be it, but it's clearly a common issue for others.

Personally, I never do it if I'm playing a "good" character because it bothers me on a roleplaying level, but that doesn't mean I don't notice the incentive and pretend like it's not there.
 

Hormalakh

Magister
Joined
Nov 27, 2012
Messages
1,503
If I kill 1200 goblins in a playthrough of PoE I'm going to be very angry.

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/68667-thoughts-on-the-lore-skill/

There was a discussion about lore and how, in reality, after the first game or after the strategy guides come out, the lore skill can be meta-gamed away and become a pretty useless skill (degeneracy alert, Josh Sawyer). As such, I've been thinking about a few ways to make the lore skill more interesting to use and a useful skill for players to try to invest points in.



There are a few goals with my changes to the lore skill.



1- Maintain the current "game lore" behind the "skill lore." That is that the lore skill would still continue to be a skill that represents a character's accumulated miscellaneous knowledge and trivia.

2- As all skills should continue to be useful throughout the whole game, in regards to combat, this means that a character should become more effective in combat (as they learn the common "weakpoints" of enemies. For the player this means increasing their cyclopedia entries, but mechanically this should also mean improvements in combat.

3- As with all skills, each party member should have an incentive to want to invest in the skill.

4- This skill should be an incentive for players to want to engage in combat (instead of combat XP). That means that as players engage in more combat, the effectiveness of this skill should be more apparent, therefore making combat incentivized as opposed to utilizing XP as this incentive.



THE IDEA:

As party members fight and kill more and more of an enemy type, their combat effectiveness (e.g. attack damage/crit%/attack speed, etc) increases when fighting that particular type of enemy. The rate of improvement in combat effectiveness is based on an equation that utilizes each party member's lore skill as well as the number of enemies of that particular type that have been killed by the WHOLE party.

So for example, let's say that if the party kills in total (all party kills) 25, 100, 300, 900, 1500 goblins, each party member will have an increase in their crit% against goblins of 1%, 2.5%, 5%, 9%, 15% respectively. How does the lore skill come into play? Well as each party member's lore skill level is increased, the number you need to kill is decreased by the equation CEILING(TOTAL ENEMIES/LORE LEVEL).



So let's say you have 6 party members with lore skill levels of 1,2,3,5,7,9.

Party member 1 (Lore skill 1) needs to have PARTY KILLS totals of 25(1%), 100(2.5%), 300(5%), 900(9%), 1500(15%) goblins for the respective crit% increases.

Party member 2 (Lore skill 2) needs to have PARTY KILLS totals of 13(1%), 50(2.5%), 150(5%), 450(9%), 750(15%) goblins for the respective crit% increases.

Party member 3 (Lore skill 3) needs to have PARTY KILLS totals of 9(1%), 34(2.5%), 100(5%), 300(9%), and 500(15%) goblins for the respective crit% increases.

...

and so on

...

Party member 6 (Lore skill 9) needs to have PARTY KILLS totals of 3(1%), 12(2.5%), 34(5%), 100(9%), and 167(15%) goblins for the respective crit% increases.



So let's say that the party has killed 170 goblins in the game with the same party members as previously mentioned. Assume all players have base crit% of 5%. Their new crit% with the lore skills would be:



1: 7.5% crit chance

2: 10% crit chance

3: 10% crit chance

4: 10% crit chance

5: 14% crit chance

6: 20% crit chance

--------------------------------

Different monsters can have different PARTY KILL TOTAL requirements. Other equations can be used as well as other combat effectiveness attributes (as mentioned above) to fine-tune the best range, rate of increase, and value for skill.



This is a good way of incentivizing players to enter combat (as opposed to combat XP), each party member to invest in lore, will continue to give back value to the player over the whole game, and can fit within the current game lore.



What do the rest of you think?
The numbers and everything can be changed. to fit the game. The point is to not let the increases occur too quickly while allowing late game increase to occur faster for higher-level lore party members. The reason I picked 1200 was because I think that players who invest only 1 level of lore skill shouldn't be able to reach the highest levels of crit%. I don't think they'll be that many goblins in game. Only the highest skilled players should have such high crit%s. <BALANCE>
 

DefJam101

Arcane
Joined
Nov 11, 2007
Messages
8,047
Location
Cybernegro HQ
ByImu7BIcAEH6fk.jpg:large
Wow, fantasy artwork that doesn't make my eyes bleed. What year is it again?
 

Seaking4

Learned
Joined
Sep 4, 2014
Messages
362
Wow, fantasy artwork that doesn't make my eyes bleed. What year is it again?


Ugh, am I the only one bothered by African-Americans in OUR RPG's? I am not racist and I have nothing against them, but the genre was made by Tolkein and there was originally no African-Americans in fantasy novels. It just makes no sense.

Weak bait but I'll bite.

Firstly, Tolkien neither created fantasy nor high-fantasy. Although his contributions to the genre are immense. To the point where most fantasy games/books/movies just feel like cheap Tolkien knock offs.

Secondly, this is Obsidian's own IP so they can have whatever colored people they want in it. If they wanted green people well more power to them. The reason Tolkien didn't have African Americans (which is a hilariously stupid way to phrase it but I digress) was because his books were largely inspired by Norse mythology which you might have guessed did not have lots of African Americans in them and because his stories were intended as a creation story for England which also had no African Americans.
 

Chunkyman

Augur
Joined
Dec 8, 2013
Messages
159
Wow, fantasy artwork that doesn't make my eyes bleed. What year is it again?

Ugh, am I the only one bothered by African-Americans in OUR RPG's? I am not racist and I have nothing against them, but the genre was made by Tolkein and there was originally no African-Americans in fantasy novels. It just makes no sense.

Just call them blacks, "African American" doesn't even make sense in this context.

But yeah I find it dumb. It reeks of typical leftist tokenism.
 

Jezal_k23

Guest
I don't have the belief that everything should be left exactly as it always was. Not very inspiring.
 

Bio Force Ape

Arcane
Joined
Feb 24, 2014
Messages
3,427
Wow, fantasy artwork that doesn't make my eyes bleed. What year is it again?

Ugh, am I the only one bothered by African-Americans in OUR RPG's? I am not racist and I have nothing against them, but the genre was made by Tolkein and there was originally no African-Americans in fantasy novels. It just makes no sense.

Just call them blacks, "African American" doesn't even make sense in this context.

But yeah I find it dumb. It reeks of typical leftist tokenism.

What's next? They're gonna make us start calling dwarfs "little people"?!
 

As an Amazon Associate, rpgcodex.net earns from qualifying purchases.
Back
Top Bottom